Large Glass

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J

Jeanette

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
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Jul 20, 2009
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122
Customer wish 44x44" glass.
I found no source for that size of glass (the largest is 40x60).

Should I reject this job and propose to customer to go with Acrylic, which is available in 48x96. Also it is more secured against breakage and making mess. But is is 4 times more expensive...
 
Yes to acrylic, but you can always try a local glass company too.
 
Glass is avail in that size, but very heavy and very thick ... usually 1/4". The customer would be better served with acrylic in this case. I always recommend acrylic when the size exceeds 40 x 60.
 
Glass may be less expensive at the get go but down the line
when breakage and carnage occur the plexi will appear to be
quite the bargain.
 
Does your customer just need the glass, or is it a full frame job?

First case; I would send her to the glass place directly if she insists on glass. But would still advise plexi.
Second case; I would sell plexi.
 
If the customer insists on glass for that size, I would decline the job. It would be unwise to construct that frame with glass, and not make extra provisions to minimize corner-to-corner twisting, which would surely break the glass -- probably before it gets into the buyer's house.

By the time you account for the added reinforcement necessary to support that sheet of glass, and the extra work of obtaining it and fitting the frame with extra care, the retail price ought to be very close to the price of a similar frame with acrylic.

Acrylic does cost more than glass, but not 4 times more, and acquisition cost has to be considered. You can buy acrylic in standard size from established suppliers, and perhaps have it delivered free. Glass of that size probably would have to come from a glass company; not an established supplier. You may have to pay for delivery, or pick it up yourself -- a cost, either way.

Chances are that if you buy single-strength glass, you will break it at least once before the frame is completed (I would plan on it). If you buy thicker glass, then the price may be very close to that of acrylic.

The matter of liability is worth considering, too. What if you build that frame, place it carefully in the customer's truck, and he suffers a serious injury from the breaking glass when he tries to take it in the house? That is a very real possibility. If he sued you for the price of stitches and medical care, he might win.
 
Jim Miller said:
If the customer insists on glass for that size, I would decline the job. It would be unwise to construct that frame with glass, and not make extra provisions to minimize corner-to-corner twisting, which would surely break the glass -- probably before it gets into the buyer's house.

By the time you account for the added reinforcement necessary to support that sheet of glass, and the extra work of obtaining it and fitting the frame with extra care, the retail price ought to be very close to the price of a similar frame with acrylic.

Acrylic does cost more than glass, but not 4 times more, and acquisition cost has to be a considered. You can buy acrylic in standard size from established suppliers, and perhaps have it delivered free. Glass of that size probably would have to come from a glass company; not an established supplier. You may have to pay for delivery, or pick it up yourself -- a cost, either way.

Chances are that if you buy single-strength glass, you will break it at least once before the frame is completed (I would plan on it). If you buy thicker glass, then the price may be very close to that of acrylic.

The matter of liability is worth considering, too. What if you build that frame, place it carefully in the customer's truck, and he suffers a serious injury from the breaking glass when he tries to take it in the house? That is a very real possibility. If he sued you for the price of stitches and medical care, he might win.
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+1. While it can be tough sometimes, there is no law that says you SHOULD do every job you could. Insist on the plexi and if your customer isn't willing to go that route your insistence could help sway them.
 
What Jim said.

A full Sheet of FF3 is $88 from LJ ($2.75/sqft). Regular glass runs about $1.00/sqft.

The weight of of the glass will be around 30 pounds. The acrylic around 15lbs.

There is no choice here. Acrylic or turn down the job.
 
I wont handle glass over 36x48. I did agree once to put a 40x60 piece in a frame for the customer that was cut by the local glass store, but I was not going to be resposible if I broke it. Okay by them.

They load it into their van at the store just fine, but it didnt make it out of my parking lot. Plexi ruled.
 
I stock glass up to 40x 60 and have had no problem with that size. 44x44 you've got to go with the plexi. If you can cut your own get a 48x 96 and you will have more than a half a sheet left to sell to someone else. I get my 48x96 from LJ.
 
I typically go plexi-glass on oversized artwork.

I have done a 12ft x 4ft frame with glass though. The glass was cut to size and delivered to my store. With two people, it wasn't difficult to install in to the frame (on it's side).

First option I would suggest is plexi glass.
Second option I would suggest is contacting a local glass supplier to see if oversize glass is available to you.

If it's out of your comfort level, pass on the job.
 
That's the way to do it. The first one pays for the second one. Money in your pocket.
 
While acrylic is a wise decision there is some bad info being handed out in this thread. First of all glass weighs 1 pound per square foot and plex is 3/4 pounds. About 3 pounds difference on that size. Single strength glass is available in these sizes and is commonly used. No corner reinforcement would be required unless the frame choice was a bad design decision in the first place. I used to buy all of my clear glass in pallets of sizes 48x60 and 48x72 depending on the jobs I was working on for best scrap.
 
You are right about the weight verses size factor. Not much difference. I look at it from a profit perspective and ease of construction. There is plexi available that is 50x100 where both pieces could be cut from one sheet. Not sure if it is available in your area.
 
I have a supplier with 70x150 and they will cut it any way I like for a total of $7. Free delivery the next day.
 
Can't beat that with a stick. More profit for us.
 
About 3 pounds difference on that size...No corner reinforcement would be required unless the frame choice was a bad design decision in the first place.
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Weight is not the main issue with glass in large-dimension frames. Corner-to-corner flexing is the problem -- it will break glass, but not acrylic.
 
True enough. That's why I will use single strength glass up to 40x 60. Beyond that I like plexi. In 41 years I have never had a piece come back with broken glass unless the customer dropped it. Not long ago I did an antique African quilt in a 9' by 10' plexi box. The plexi box was delivered by flatbed truck and just fit in the shop door. I had to raise some of the shop lights to be able to stand it up to work on it. Thank goodness the client had giant front doors so they could get it in the house.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
While acrylic is a wise decision there is some bad info being handed out in this thread. First of all glass weighs 1 pound per square foot and plex is 3/4 pounds. About 3 pounds difference on that size.
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Sorry but I don't agree. Acrylic weights about half what glass does. But don't take it from me. Both of the following PDFs from TruVue say that also.

http://www.tru-vue.com/files/Fact_specificationsheet_Updated1209(2).pdf

http://www.thepaperframer.com/acrylic/ffpp.pdf

I've never weighed either but I can handle a 4x8 sheet of acrylic easily. Can't say the same for a large piece of glass.

Tomorrow or Monday when I'm back in the shop, I'll weigh some and come back with some exact weights.

Just to make sure things are even I will measure similar thicknesses for both. If you have some basis for your comparison, I would be interested in it.
 
As I said before, I would go with plexi on anything over 40x60. Sometimes I see arguments on some of these forums over the tiniest minutia I wonder if we are framing artwork , building nuclear weapons, or doing Genome cancer research. It's not that complicated.
 
neilframer said:
Sometimes I see arguments on some of these forums over the tiniest minutia I wonder if...
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The choice of glazing in a large frame is not minutia. The hazards of breakage increase with glass size, including damage to the artwork and serious personal injury. The fact that an experienced framer may have no difficulty constructing or handling a large, fragile frame with glass does not address the fact that most consumers are likely to make mistakes of inexperience in handling.

Even if breakage does not result in damage or injury, one glass replacement usually costs more than the difference of price to provide acrylic in the first place.
 
I have to agree with Jim on this one. Most customers will not know how to handle the larger glass and I do not want to be the one liable for any injuries that may occur because of breakage. IMO, acrylic has come a long way, both cost and quality, and there is no reason not to use acrylic on the larger framing projects. On a job like this if the customer insist on glass I will explain to them my concerns, show them examples of the acrylic, and if they still insist on glass I nicely tell them to take it somewhere else. I haven't had a single customer yet take their framing job elsewhere.

just my $0.02 Joe B
 
Larry Peterson said:
Sorry but I don't agree. Acrylic weights about half what glass does. But don't take it from me. Both of the following PDFs from TruVue say that also.
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O.K. so you have shown me in 1/8" TV has a weight of .7 pounds per sq ft. Palleted glass is sold by weight including the pallet. Based on the hundreds of pallets of 48x60 or 48x72 glass I have purchased the glass itself was always under 1 pound per sq. ft. How did you get to half. Are you calculating the weight of .090 to glass because in this size you won't be able to use .090.

For safety issues use acrylic or if you are afraid to handle large glass use acrylic but millions of pieces of this size are framed with glass and will continue to be done with glass.
 
It turns out that the answer is yes and no.

If you compare like thicknesses of acrylic and glass, then acrylic is 1/2 the weight of glass.

If you compare the thickness of acrylic that you need to use for a large frame to glass, then acrylic is 60% the weight of glass.

Here are my results using a pretty accurate 250lb digital shipping scale.

.098" (2.5mm) FF3 4x8 sheet = 18.5lb = .58 lb/sqft = 50.4% weight of CC

.118 (3.0mm) P99 61 1/8" x 48" = 14.4lb = .71 lb/sqft = 61.7% weight of CC

4 lites 22x28 2.0 regular glass = 19.05 lb = 1.11 lb/sqft = 96.5% weight of CC

7 lites 20x24 Conservation Clear glass = 26.80 lbs = 1.15 lb sq/ft.
 
Now if you compare .060 acrylic to Museum Glass you can hit your ideal 50%. The gross weight stamps on glass boxes also need to be changed to reflect the higher weight as well since they state 50 pounds for 50 sq ft boxes.

Now if we compare clear to clear we are at less than 5 pounds difference. Certainly not the difference any framer was expecting out of this excercise.
 
Here's what I say on my site about glass vs acrylic. Although I mention glass, I no longer sell glass on my site.


What are the benefits of acrylic over glass?

Acrylic is stronger, more impact resistant, lighter in weight and won't shatter. It is half the weight of glass, and a .125" thickness of acrylic is 2 to 3 times more impact resistant than double strength window glass, 4 to 5 times more impact resistant than wire glass or other glasses. Acrylic can be refinished if scratched. Even with good packing, glass can break during shipping. Shippers won't insure glass. I pack well but glass isn't covered by my shipping insurance. And our reason #1, if you drop your frame, the Acrylic won't shatter and damage your collectible ephemera.
 
Yes that has been covered but I believe only you have used the statistic of 20 times the shatter resistance. That should help make the decision because if it were only 10 times the shatter resistance the couple of pounds of weight difference would be less important.

Glass breaks and acrylic does not. Every time we have this discussion it is always the same. The decision needs to be made on the premise that glass breaks and acrylic does not. The discussion always warps into the huge weight difference which there is not. The twisting and tweaking frame which is a flawed structural design. We get the need for special structural hanging apparatus which is not any different from acrylic to glass in this size.

What it all comes down to is glass breaks and acrylic does not. If a framer is not comfortable handling glass this size they should only offer acrylic. If the piece is being hung in a children's play room then acrylic should be used. If the piece is being hung in an adult area for viewing and the framer used a structurally sound framing design glass is fine and there are no special hoops to jump through.
 
One of the things I used to do when I had a store front and the buyer wasn't sure whether to go with acrylic or glass was to take a piece of acrylic and throw it fairly hard to the carpet. If they were on the fence, then that would help them decide.

I always pitched acrylic for the home in any area that a child might play and high traffic areas (hallways, etc) for commercial areas. I also pitched acrylic whenever there was any value to a piece; either family heirloom or sentimental or actual value.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
The twisting and tweaking frame which is a flawed structural design...
Click to expand...

If you lay a large frame flat on the floor (or in a truck bed) and lift one corner, it would be extremely difficult to make the frame so rigid that the opposite corner also lifts equally. The usual result is corner-to-corner flexing, and that is what breaks the glass. The larger the frame, the more difficult it would be to make it rigid.

What it all comes down to is glass breaks and acrylic does not. If a framer is not comfortable handling glass this size...
Click to expand...

Most framers could handle glass of this size; that is not the problem. The problem is that most consumers do not know how to handle frames of that size without breaking the glass.
 
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