Klucel G Mixing Issues

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MichaelFerris

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Prairiebrooke Arts
Hello!

We've decided to try out the new Klucel G alternative for mounting, opposed to the methyl cellulose option that we're accustomed to.

We're not exactly sure what to look for when we mix the powder with isopropyl alcohol, however. We've tried a couple times already, mixing two parts alcohol to one part powder, but after an overnight wait, we come back to a cloudy, thick mass of paste. It just doesn't seem right. To anyone who's mixed and used this mounting method, how has yours looked and what exactly are we looking for? A thick paste, or something more viscous and clear?

Thanks so much!
 
Bruce Papier said:
I used a 6 or 7 to 1 alcohol to powder ratio and usually had to wait 2 days or so for the Klucel G to fully dissolve. It should be a very thick fluid, but not a gel.
Click to expand...
Oh wow, that's a big difference from the directions for mixing on the bottle. But I definitely believe it, it's just too thick right now, I feel more alcohol is needed.
 
I still use a 2:1 ratio. It is a very thick gel, but works for my purposes. I draw it out as thin as possible with a razor blade on glass, press a sheet of kozo into it firmly, let it dry overnight, and then cut and scrape it back off carefully(again with a razor) to make tape that is reactivatable with a light brush of alcohol. I use thinner dilutions for wet applications, but that's not often and doesn't seem to be as strong an adhesion as the tape.
 
Mary Beth van der Horst said:
I still use a 2:1 ratio. It is a very thick gel, but works for my purposes. I draw it out as thin as possible with a razor blade on glass, press a sheet of kozo into it firmly, let it dry overnight, and then cut and scrape it back off carefully(again with a razor) to make tape that is reactivatable with a light brush of alcohol. I use thinner dilutions for wet applications, but that's not often and doesn't seem to be as strong an adhesion as the tape.
Click to expand...
I have also bought some Klucel G and Methyl Cellulose to experiment with.
While mulberry paper and rice starch paste is a big improvement over non-conservation mounting methods, it is still a bit of an extra chore to mix the paste.
Finding a method that is still above par for quality mounting, yet also quicker to apply when needed would be ideal.

Mary Beth, didn't you post a thread some time ago about your experiments with Klucel G?
I seem to remember it was fairly detailed. Or am I misremembering?
 
Nikodeumus said:
Mary Beth, didn't you post a thread some time ago detailing your experiments with Klucel G?
I seem to remember it was fairly detailed. Or am I mis-remembering?
Click to expand...
yes, incredibly long, detailed, and with other's experiences as well.
This link skips to my first try and tutorial...
These days I stick a whole uncut sheet on, then score and scape a row of tape off at a time. I was just making another big batch the other day:
A couple of panes ready for scraping, and a big ole box of tape!
klucel tape making.webp

I love the premade tape approach because not only does the film slightly strengthen the kozo, so I only have to use a very thin mulberry paper from Talas, you can control the moisture pretty easily by letting it flash dry for a few seconds before adhering to the artwork, similar to how you let starch paste gel before adhering. If I need stronger hinges, I can quickly laminate them together or just use a wider hinge. If you can see in the box, I scrape them off sometimes in multiple rows and then cut them down as needed for each project.
 
One of the beautiful things about Klucel G is you can just keep adding alcohol until you reach a workable texture. If you still have the unusable wad hanging around, just add some more alcohol. Are you using the most concentrated alcohol you can get? I used 91% which you can get at a drugstore. You can get 100%, but they treat it like it's rocket fuel.
 
As I read these other posts, it may be I just lucked out. I made up a small batch (maybe 1 Tbs of powder) in a small Mason jar, Let it sit for a couple days, whipped a thin layer of paste on the hinge, and screwed the lid back on the jar. The bond always seemed as strong as I got with rice or wheat starch. As far as cockling goes, I experimented a lot before I used Klucel G on customers' artwork. I once put a 42 gram hinge on a piece of Kleenex with nary a pucker.

Initially, I tried the 2 to 1 ratio, but it came out like a rubber ball. It wasn't spreadable at all. I see how Mary Beth's method is a "purer" way to do it, but it also involves a good number of steps. Again, I think the best course may be experiment and see what works for you.
 
Bruce Papier said:
One of the beautiful things about Klucel G is you can just keep adding alcohol until you reach a workable texture. If you still have the unusable wad hanging around, just add some more alcohol. Are you using the most concentrated alcohol you can get? I used 91% which you can get at a drugstore. You can get 100%, but they treat it like it's rocket fuel.
Click to expand...
I find that you can do that up to a point. Eventually, the result will be a weaker bond, since you aren't adding any more powder. If you notice that, just dump it and make a new batch. These materials are not expensive. Like you, I started with the 2-to-1 ratio, but that is a bit too thick to work with, so I add a little more alcohol, probably ending up with more of a 3-to-1 or maybe even 4-to-1 ratio, but no thinner than that. I like it to be gel-like, and apply it with a Q-tip swab.
:cool: Rick
 
Mary Beth van der Horst said:
yes, incredibly long, detailed, and with other's experiences as well.
This link skips to my first try and tutorial...
These days I stick a whole uncut sheet on, then score and scape a row of tape off at a time. I was just making another big batch the other day:
A couple of panes ready for scraping, and a big ole box of tape!
View attachment 50538
I love the premade tape approach because not only does the film slightly strengthen the kozo, so I only have to use a very thin mulberry paper from Talas, you can control the moisture pretty easily by letting it flash dry for a few seconds before adhering to the artwork, similar to how you let starch paste gel before adhering. If I need stronger hinges, I can quickly laminate them together or just use a wider hinge. If you can see in the box, I scrape them off sometimes in multiple rows and then cut them down as needed for each project.
Click to expand...
Mary Beth thanks for sharing, quite a thought provoking and interesting approach, we had no idea you can do something like this! We'll be sure to experiment with this method when the chance comes.
 
Bruce Papier said:
As I read these other posts, it may be I just lucked out. I made up a small batch (maybe 1 Tbs of powder) in a small Mason jar, Let it sit for a couple days, whipped a thin layer of paste on the hinge, and screwed the lid back on the jar. The bond always seemed as strong as I got with rice or wheat starch. As far as cockling goes, I experimented a lot before I used Klucel G on customers' artwork. I once put a 42 gram hinge on a piece of Kleenex with nary a pucker.

Initially, I tried the 2 to 1 ratio, but it came out like a rubber ball. It wasn't spreadable at all. I see how Mary Beth's method is a "purer" way to do it, but it also involves a good number of steps. Again, I think the best course may be experiment and see what works for you.
Click to expand...
Rick Granick said:
I find that you can do that up to a point. Eventually, the result will be a weaker bond, since you aren't adding any more powder. If you notice that, just dump it and make a new batch. These materials are not expensive. Like you, I started with the 2-to-1 ratio, but that is a bit too thick to work with, so I add a little more alcohol, probably ending up with more of a 3-to-1 or maybe even 4-to-1 ratio, but no thinner than that. I like it to be gel-like, and apply it with a Q-tip swab.
:cool: Rick
Click to expand...
We ended up with about 5 to 1 ratio, and think this is a nice consistency to work with. Yes, much better than the rubber ball that wouldn't work for our application with brush to hinge. It's gel like, maybe a touch more viscous, and clearing up well over the day. Tomorrow, we'll experiment on various items before applying to customer work, but we have a much better feeling about it compared to finding the rubber ball this morning.
 
Mary Beth van der Horst said:
yes, incredibly long, detailed, and with other's experiences as well.
This link skips to my first try and tutorial...
These days I stick a whole uncut sheet on, then score and scape a row of tape off at a time. I was just making another big batch the other day:
A couple of panes ready for scraping, and a big ole box of tape!
View attachment 50538
I love the premade tape approach because not only does the film slightly strengthen the kozo, so I only have to use a very thin mulberry paper from Talas, you can control the moisture pretty easily by letting it flash dry for a few seconds before adhering to the artwork, similar to how you let starch paste gel before adhering. If I need stronger hinges, I can quickly laminate them together or just use a wider hinge. If you can see in the box, I scrape them off sometimes in multiple rows and then cut them down as needed for each project.
Click to expand...
Did you intend to post a link, along with this?
 
I'm the sort of person who would use a respirator mask for working with isopropyl alcohol,
even in small amounts. Am guessing that all others don't, but breathing it bothers my head,
and I need all the 'think' I can get.
 
JFeig said:
Just remember that the lower the solvent to powder ratio, the greater the resistance to cockling, and the quicker it takes to dry for maximum strength.
Click to expand...

I have a question about this. With starch paste, a ratio that is too thick (less water) can lead to more cockling because it dries more slowly than a thinner paste. This isn't the same with KG?
 
Corbin Dallas said:
I have a question about this. With starch paste, a ratio that is too thick (less water) can lead to more cockling because it dries more slowly than a thinner paste. This isn't the same with KG?
Click to expand...
The amount of paste used (the thickness of the layer applied) to a hinge is the critical point. The thickness of the layer can be controlled easier by using a sturdy (stiff) brush or a pallet knife that with a wet mop style brush. In watercolor art are there are 2 techniques, a wet brush and a dry brush technique.
 
It looks like our second attempt was successful! Thanks all for the input, it is very helpful. The mixture is clear, and has the consistency of a gel. We just explored mounting a paper towel and printer paper. Both feel well secured and there is no cockling at all, which is the main reason we decided to give this stuff a try. We'll continue using cautiously until we are more confident with it, but all signs look towards this being a successful new mounting method here.
 
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