Keeping big posters flat??

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framinzfun

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
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I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything in the archives.... So here it is.... I have to frame two pretty big movie posters, roughly 27 x 40. The customer doesn't want mats, so the glass would be up against the poster, and they don't want any sort of dry mounting... So my question is, what can I do to keep the poster from getting wavy under the glass? Would spacers do anything? Or would that just give the poster more room to be wavy? :(
 
I think your customer is looking for a miracle.

Spacers may make the problem worse since they would "pinch" the poster around the outside edges and make normal expansion and contraction impossible.

Are these movies posters collectors' items? (I shudder just saying those words.)

There have been some extensive discussions about framing movie posters without mats or mounting and I must admit I still don't understand the concept. It seems to me you would need one or the other to do the job properly.
 
I don't see how you can prevent the waves without mounting the poster. You might try explaining the situation to the customer and let him/her decide if its waves or mounting.

Jack Cee
 
Sounds like you are pretty limited.

My best recommendation would be to use U.V. Plexi for fade protection and reduce the likely hood of condensation. I might add a couple of hinges to the top to help prevent sagging, and back with as much filler board as the frame will allow. Don't forget to line the frame if use using wood.
 
I would look at using a frame with a very large rebate or a fillet under the frame so as to create space around the edge for expansion/contraction with spacers to keep the glazing away from the surface.

(actually I thought that this thread might have something to do with putting Ron and Framerguy in a vacuum press)

[ 02-25-2003, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Lance E ]
 
Question for Lessafinger - would you still line the wood frame if it is not "valuable"? If not, what's the purpose?

And re: static plexi application.....I've often wondered, doesn't it loose it's static after time? Kinda like chewing gum losing it's flavor on the bedpost overnight??? ;)
 
Hi Sherry,

I guess the right answer is yes. Today's trash - tomorrow's treasures.

Depends on my mood. It really depends on the client. Why do they not want a mat or to dry mount? Mats can be cut very small. I get confusing signals from clients like these. Do they not want to spend money on dry mounting, or are they interested in some sort of conservation? I won't argue with a client if they don't want a mat for aesthetic reasons. I may then recommend u.v. plexi, but then they don't want to pay for that. In fact, maybe they don't want to pay for u.v. glass. What happens if it is our default glass? If it is just decorative, then no I won't line the rabbet, unLess I feel like it. But, if it is decorative then why NOT dry mount it? How much more do we charge for dry mount verses just backing? Don't you just hate these cheap *****, sometimes. Everyone gets confused because we try to do the right thing, and we end up feeling guilty, because we worry they think we are just trying to over sell the job.

Where's my Unseal?

Hey Lance, that was a good one! What do you suppose those two are doing in the press?

On occasion, if my shop was chilly and my 40x60 press was warm, I would hop up in there and take a nap.

[ 02-25-2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]
 
Thanks for the good suggestions. To answer a few questions... the posters are not actually valuable now, but the customer wants to take precautions in case they are valuable in the future. And, yes, most of our customers are looking for miracles (very inexpensive miracles at that). I explained to the customer that the way he wanted it framed would probably result in some waves in the poster,and he was OK with that, but I wanted to see if there was something I could do to minimize it.
 
Add 1/8 inch to the frame size and hinge at the top, have the backing slightly bigger than the the poster, the frame should still cover the edge but give some expansion.

A rippled poster later will not become of greater value, tell them to add the mat and make sure.
 
Spacers will not make the poster buckle if you leave it loose enough to expand and contract freely. Spring clips in metal frames and any pressure at all with points in wood frames will hinder the free expansion and contraction of the poster AND the backing and will result in buckling. (Spacers or not) Hang the poster with hinges over the top of the backing - leave it loose- and explain the physics of the problem to your customer. BTW- there's a great article on this subject at the Frame Tek web page at www.frametek.com - titled why art buckles in a frame - free!
 
Isn't it weird how things go? I just completed a similar job a couple of days ago - same type of client concerns, same type of client demands, same perceived value, similar size, etc.

After explaining some simple physics and adding a little common sense, here's what I ended up doing after the customer made a few compromises.

The poster was flattened in a humidity chamber (hot steamy environment + matboards etc. see archives) and float-mounted (sekishu & methyl cellulose) onto B8644.8 8-ply Ebony. The bottom of the poster was weighted with a strip of B8644 (regular 4-ply) affixed via methyl cellulose dots to the verso.

I used a single B8644.8 8-ply Ebony for the upper mat after having left a 2 1/2 inch margin between the mat bevel and the art.

Glazing was TV Museum.

Rabbet was sealed.

Comentary:
The poster had been rolled up for years and had taken a set. The humidity chamber treatment allowed it to reflatten without further damaging the art - noting of course the grain orientation of the paper - (expansion and contraction perpendicular to the axis of the grain is more dramatic than movement parallel to the grain).

The hinges were placed slightly higher than customary to put as much weight in suspension as possible below the hinge points - this also assists in discouraging the top edge from re-rolling.

The weighting of the art at the bottom is to assist in discouraging the artifact from re-rolling itself from the bottom.

Glass was used instead of acrylic to mitigate static potential and to provide impervious
protection to the recto - acrylic is not impervious.

8-ply was used as the mounting medium to provide a solid, strong surface. Ebony was chosen for its aesthetics.

8-ply was chosen for the upper mat to create an appropriate space between the glass and the potential of the art to re-curl. Common plastic FrameSpace was not suitable for this job because a wide-as-possible bearing surface between the rabbet/glass and upper mat was required to keep the mountboard, because of its size, as flat as possible under potentialy changing conditions.

In the context of potential re-rolling of the artifact, a greater space between the glass and the art would have been preferable but a compromise had to be reached in order to mitigate potential problems from a too-large air space (potential for humidity, convection, dust, etc.) - a single 8-ply space was seen as the appropriate compromise.

The void behind the mountboard and moulding verso surface was filled completely with cross-oriented Coroplast (three sheets) sealed with foil, and filled flush with rag. The job was finished in the customary manner and bottom hung because of its weight to moulding size ratio.

One final comment: "wavy" happens - all things being equal and incorrect framing technique not being an issue, cockling is a function of humidity and its relationship with the artifact.

. . . hope this helps.

[ 03-04-2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Orton ]
 
The kind of compromises Less likes $$$$
 
Hi, Link213. Welcome, to the Grumble! The quotes are showing up, but not your notes. :)
 
Ron Eggers said:
I think your customer is looking for a miracle.

Spacers may make the problem worse since they would "pinch" the poster around the outside edges and make normal expansion and contraction impossible.

Are these movies posters collectors' items? (I shudder just saying those words.)

There have been some extensive discussions about framing movie posters without mats or mounting and I must admit I still don't understand the concept. It seems to me you would need one or the other to do the job properly.
Click to expand...
Less said:
Hi Sherry,

I guess the right answer is yes. Today's trash - tomorrow's treasures.

Depends on my mood. It really depends on the client. Why do they not want a mat or to dry mount? Mats can be cut very small. I get confusing signals from clients like these. Do they not want to spend money on dry mounting, or are they interested in some sort of conservation? I won't argue with a client if they don't want a mat for aesthetic reasons. I may then recommend u.v. plexi, but then they don't want to pay for that. In fact, maybe they don't want to pay for u.v. glass. What happens if it is our default glass? If it is just decorative, then no I won't line the rabbet, unLess I feel like it. But, if it is decorative then why NOT dry mount it? How much more do we charge for dry mount verses just backing? Don't you just hate these cheap *****, sometimes. Everyone gets confused because we try to do the right thing, and we end up feeling guilty, because we worry they think we are just trying to over sell the job.

Where's my Unseal?

Hey Lance, that was a good one! What do you suppose those two are doing in the press?

On occasion, if my shop was chilly and my 40x60 press was warm, I would hop up in there and take a nap.

[ 02-25-2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: lessafinger ]
Click to expand...
framinzfun said:
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything in the archives.... So here it is.... I have to frame two pretty big movie posters, roughly 27 x 40. The customer doesn't want mats, so the glass would be up against the poster, and they don't want any sort of dry mounting... So my question is, what can I do to keep the poster from getting wavy under the glass? Would spacers do anything? Or would that just give the poster more room to be wavy? :(
Click to expand...

The only way to properly frame a poster is to linen back it. In the poster world, posters do not have matte’s around them because posters contain production markers around the edges and these get covered up by the matte. Secondly, dry mounting is not a recognized way of framing as the poster can never be taken out of the frame and rolled and stored again. Dry mounting will kill a posters value. Thirdly the only recognized way for framing without the poster being wavy is to linen back in which framing stores do not know how to do. This must be done separately and then brought in for framing afterwards. And yes, nothing to bock the posters view of union stamps and logos, as well as product numbers and the poster must be sandwiched in. This is the ONLY recognized way for framing in the poster world.
 
Our industry has changed quite a lot since the first post in this thread almost 22 years ago.

DCO works for this, whether the poster is linen-backed or not. Completely reversible, minimally invasive, no adhesives, no spacers. Any thick acrylic would be suitable, but 6 mm Museum Optium Acrylic is best. The extra thickness is to resist deflection/bowing under tension of the polyester batting.

I suggest using 3mm or 4mm ACM (Aluminum Composite Material) for the backing, because it is fairly thin, very rigid, lightweight, and preservation-worthy. Use a liner of 4-ply Conservation (virgin alpha cellulose) or Museum (100% cotton) matboard under the poster, and several layers of polyester batting under that. Fit very tightly to compress the batting, which keeps the poster flat.
 
Jim Miller said:
Our industry has changed quite a lot since the first post in this thread almost 22 years ago.

DCO works for this, whether the poster is linen-backed or not. Completely reversible, minimally invasive, no adhesives, no spacers. Any thick acrylic would be suitable, but 6 mm Museum Optium Acrylic is best. The extra thickness is to resist deflection/bowing under tension of the polyester batting.

I suggest using 3mm or 4mm ACM (Aluminum Composite Material) for the backing, because it is fairly thin, very rigid, lightweight, and preservation-worthy. Use a liner of 4-ply Conservation (virgin alpha cellulose) or Museum (100% cotton) matboard under the poster, and several layers of polyester batting under that. Fit very tightly to compress the batting, which keeps the poster flat.
Click to expand...
I've found that metal offset clips work well, for holding/pressing a large piece like this.
I screw the top part to the back of the frame, and the other part pushes down inside.
What method have you used?
 
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