Grumble Alert Keep Your Glues Warm

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Jim Miller

Jim Miller

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A popular supplier of framing adhesives suggests that most water-borne glues work best at about 78 degrees F, but function almost as well at comfortable room temperatures.

Temperature is an important consideration in winter because most adhesives, and especially all water borne glues, take longer to set up at lower temperatures. If you reduce the temperature in your shop in winter to save heating fuel and cost, remember that your glues' performance will be affected. And of course, freezing temperatures can ruin a glue's chemistry. That is a problem for shipping glues in winter, and be careful about outdoor or remote storage locations.

The glue maker suggests keeping our glues warm by placing the bottles in a box with a heating pad overnight and during the day when not in use. Also, note that the surface temperatures of the materials being bonded can affect set up time, as well.
 
Thanks

Thanks for the heads up Jim. :icon19:

I knew about the freezing thingie but didn't think about the lower temps in the work area. Keep shop at about 60 in the winter. :icon9: That is overnight temp of course :shutup:
 
I appreciate it, too. :smiley:
 
Keeping glues warm is never a problem here. It's something I had never thought about, but I guess many framers in cold climates should think about seriously.
 
rhop said:
...Keep shop at about 60 in the winter. :icon9: That is overnight temp of course :shutup:
Click to expand...

Night set-back to a cool temperature in winter was the genesis of our conversation. When the warmer daytime temperature kicks in, the glues would warm very slowly and might never warm up enough to function properly, especially if the daytime temperature is still in the range of 65 to 70 F.

Putting the glue in a sealed enclosure with a heat source overnight seems like a workable solution, since it might also take all day for the glues to cool. Has anyone actually done this yet?

There's a copier-paper box with a tight-fitting lid at the shop, and an unused heating pad languishing somewhere in the bottom of the linen closet at home. I also have an unused plug-in timer, which can automatically turn the heating pad on and off. The heating pad's low temperature probably would provide plenty of heat, and it might be too much if the box is fully closed. I'll monitor it for a couple of days using a thermometer before storing the glue in it.

I'm a little concerned about the fire hazard of using a heating pad for so many hours, because they are made for occasional use and this is not their intended application. An industrial heat tape surely would be safer, if you have one handy.

Perhaps a bowl of water boiled in the microwave at day's end, closed in an insulated cooler with the glue bottles, might work as well and it would create no fire hazard. A heating pad would make dry heat, but a bowl of hot water would make high humidity in the cooler - maybe even condensation on its walls - which might help to keep the nozzles from clogging. If condensation forms, it would evaporate when the cooler is left open during the day.

There must be several glue-heating methods that would take only a few minutes a day, but might make a big, positive difference in our several-times-a-day use of glues. Any other ideas?
 
Jim, You might want to look into heating strips or pads designed for reptilian environs. They are realatively small, about 4" x 8" and have a contact adhesive on one side (designed to be stuck on the bottom of an aquarium). There are no controls or switches, they are meant to be run 24/7. Check out local pet supply store or online retailer.

We have the reverse problem in managing transfer adhesives. They generally have to be ordered during the cooler months. If they get warm waiting to be delivered in the summer, they turn in to one big gooey mess.
 
wpfay said:
...heating strips or pads designed for reptilian environs...
Click to expand...

Thanks for that suggestion, Wally. The boiling-water-in-the-cooler would be the most inert strategy, but if that is impractical, I might invest in a snake heater.

...We have the reverse problem in managing transfer adhesives...If they get warm waiting to be delivered in the summer, they turn in to one big gooey mess.
Click to expand...

Easy solution: Give up the pressure sensitive adhesives. :thumbsup:
 
Terrific.

After moving beyond it 35 years ago, now we go back to the glue pot.

Egad.

In the winter, nothing in my life goes anywhere near over 64° - I keep my shop at 55° overnight and and turn the heat up to 64° when I get there, so that is the temperature the shop stays at for at least 27 hours per week (I turn the heat down an hour before I leave every night). I keep my house at 56° in the winter.

In the last 20 years that I have been lowering the thermostat like this, none of this coldness has had any effect on any of the white glues I have ever used - from Elmer's to Frank's to Maxims to Corner Weld.

Only the Dust Cover Glue is this sensitive - and it can still be reactivated by ironing it down - but that is a major PITA because I am paranoid I will forget to unplug the tacking iron and burn down the building and it kinda makes it useless for attaching multiple layers of mats, though, at least in the winter in the North.
 
Framar said:
Terrific.
After moving beyond it 35 years ago, now we go back to the glue pot.
Egad.
Click to expand...

It's not a new issue, Mar. Modern water-borne glues have always been this way, but we may not have noticed.

...In the last 20 years that I have been lowering the thermostat like this, none of this coldness has had any effect on any of the white glues I have ever used - from Elmer's to Frank's to Maxims to Corner Weld.
Click to expand...

If moderately-low temperatures had an effect, would you know? If frame joints took 10 minutes to set up instead of 3 minutes, would you realize it? If a glue took 3 or 4 hours to thoroughly dry instead of 1 hour, would you care? I probably would not, but I would notice a setup delay on a dustcover adhesive, where I expect instant bonding.


My shop is usually between 63 and 68 degrees in winter, depending on outdoor temperatures, wind, and traffic through the doors. By coincidence, most of my glues reside in a temperate corner of the shop, so I haven't had any problems worth complaining about with any adhesives, including dustcover glue. Still, I'm going to try a few warming methods just to see if I can tell the difference.

If I had a serious problem using the dustcover glue or any other glue in winter, I'd either warm it or use something else. Our glues are what they are. I sincerely doubt that warming a few bottles of glue to 70-80 F degrees could require anywhere near as much hassle as using a glue pot, but I've never used one of those.
 
I think using a tacking iron for the dust cover glue during winter months is much easier than heating up the bottle in a pot of water (not real thrilled at the prospect of getting glue in my hot pot which I use for tea).

As far as I have ever known about other white/water-borne glues, I have known to keep them above freezing. One frigid winter when the gas company shut off the gas to the building, I ended up trucking all of my glues and paints for safekeeping over to a customer's house until the heat came back on. Most of my plants too!
 
You might be able to set up a heat box using an incandescent lightbulb as a heat source, like the Easy-Bake oven. These bulbs waste most of their energy as heat anyway. The downside of this is that in a couple of years you'll have a hard time finding the bulbs. (What are the Easy-Bake folks going to do?)
:cool: Rick

(you might make the box out an old insulated picnic cooler)
 
Wrap it in a blankie and take it home with you.

If the temp at home goes down at night you can put it under the covers.

:icon45: If you-know-who complains just explain that happy glue =happy framer= happy marriage.

Same approach works on all kinds of issues. (maybe)

Doug
 
Rick Granick said:
You might be able to set up a heat box using an incandescent lightbulb as a heat source, like the Easy-Bake oven. These bulbs waste most of their energy as heat anyway. The downside of this is that in a couple of years you'll have a hard time finding the bulbs. (What are the Easy-Bake folks going to do?)
:cool: Rick

(you might make the box out an old insulated picnic cooler)
Click to expand...

OK so I heard a story saying that the incandescent is not dead, that that was a scare tactic. GE and other companies just had to reduce the electrical use of the bulbs and a new improved incandescent is available that uses 30% less electricity. It uses a different gas in the bulb.

The heat box is a good idea, I know a wood worker that uses a light bulb and a box fashioned from styrofoam insulation to dry the tenon ends of the chair legs he is working with.
 
Framar said:
Only the Dust Cover Glue is this sensitive - and it can still be reactivated by ironing it down - but that is a major PITA
Click to expand...

Your dust cover glue is just a watered down version of the other PVA glues and that is why it is sensitive to cold. Laminall is shipped undiluted so it can ship in the winter. They recommend adding 8oz of water to the gallon before use. I don't bother watering it down unless I am mounting very fine fabric.
 
Speaking of Laminall, I never knew it was supposed to be thinned with water. I always use it straight up, never had any problems. LOL.

I love the smell of Laminall in the mornings.....
 
Would a yogurt maker work? they are only about 15-20 watts and have a timer and a cover, seems about right to me.
 
Bob Doyle said:
OK so I heard a story saying that the incandescent is not dead, that that was a scare tactic. GE and other companies just had to reduce the electrical use of the bulbs and a new improved incandescent is available that uses 30% less electricity. It uses a different gas in the bulb.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that link, Bob. The "improved incandescents" appear to be halogens in a gas-filled housing. I hope they are more durable than the Capsylite bulbs I use in my track heads. Those things are very sensitive and often blow out when first turned on, sometimes even when they aren't that old.
Jeff Rodier said:
Your dust cover glue is just a watered down version of the other PVA glues....
Click to expand...
You've got that right. I tried that stuff but find it much too runny. Plus, it is messy to get excess off of frames, and if you get it on your hands it will make you a peel-off "second skin" that puts CornerWeld to shame in that department.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
Rick Granick said:
Plus, it is messy to get excess off of frames, and if you get it on your hands it will make you a peel-off "second skin" that puts CornerWeld to shame in that department.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
Click to expand...

That problem with the DCG only showed up after it got cold out. I took a shower and washed my hair and still the stuff was on my hands.

Best way to get it off of frames is to let it dry and rub it off with a coarse cloth. Or get it off 2 seconds after you get it on. Otherwise forgetaboutit!
 
Framar said:
...Best way to get it off of frames is to let it dry and rub it off with a coarse cloth. Or get it off 2 seconds after you get it on. Otherwise forgetaboutit!
Click to expand...

The dustcover glue is 100% water soluble, it just takes a while for the water to dissolve it. That's one of its features -- in the future you can soak off the dustcover paper, scrape off the softened glue, and have a 'clean' frame back.

...much easier than heating up the bottle in a pot of water (not real thrilled at the prospect of getting glue in my hot pot which I use for tea)
Click to expand...
I think maybe you misunderstood my suggestion, Mar. I plan to boil a bowl (or glass) of water and put it in an insulated cooler next to my daily-use glue bottles. The container of hot water would only be the heat source for the closed cooler.

I would not want to put a bottle of glue directly into almost-boiling water, since that might heat it too much. And yes, glue in the tea would be not good.
 
DVieau2 said:
Wrap it in a blankie and take it home with you.
If the temp at home goes down at night you can put it under the covers. Doug
Click to expand...

Not bad, Doug, but it could affect the home life.

Another strategy would be to carry the glue bottle in your pants pocket, where your body heat would keep it plenty warm. That could be fun when she asks, "Is that a bottle of glue in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?" :icon9:
 
Jim I would think that a pot of water would be a good solution but not a great or reliable one. Once the water lost its heat it could freeze and become a source of cold for the glue... The idea of a yogurt maker, or even an electric heater, the low temp ones designed to keep pipes from freezing, they can be set for below 50 degrees would be a reasonable way to "heat" a small room.

Yes, I know, me, a devout treehugginGCCleftist promoting the use of an inefficient electric heater does seem out of character, but the proper tool for the proper application :) I'm not saying get a 32,000 btu kerosene fueled RediHeater, just a small barn heater designed for the purpose intended. A light bulb in a box could work, until the unattended bulb got too hot and a fire started... At least the heater has safety features built in so that the insurance co, and the fire marshall wouldn't shut you down for using them :)
 
I use a small (very small - about 2' wide by 3' tall) refrigerator that no longer cools, so, i too out the button that the door hits to turn off the light bulb when the door is closed and hooked up the wiring direct. No switch. It is ON all the time, unless i unplug it. It works great, with the tiny bulb putting off the heat, the temperature stays very close to 75 degrees. :icon11:
 
Bob Doyle said:
Jim I would think that a pot of water would be a good solution but not a great or reliable one. Once the water lost its heat it could freeze and become a source of cold for the glue... The idea of a yogurt maker, or even an electric heater, the low temp ones designed to keep pipes from freezing, they can be set for below 50 degrees would be a reasonable way to "heat" a small room.
Click to expand...

I'm fairly certain heat doesn't work that way.
 
Bob Doyle said:
Jim I would think that a pot of water would be a good solution but not a great or reliable one. Once the water lost its heat it could freeze and become a source of cold for the glue...
Click to expand...

Bob, are we talking about the same situation? I sense confusion here.

If a typical insulated cooler will keep ice for a couple of days in summer, a container or two of hot water should be able to keep the temperature inside the cooler above 75 degrees F overnight, right?

Freezing would not be likely in the shop, with a night setback temperature of about 63 degrees F.
 
The warm water is keeping the glue too warm to freeze.


OK, if you're serious I would have to try to find out the freezing point of glue. I would assume that it being a combination of water and other compounds that it might freeze at a lower temp than water. So with water freezing at 32 degrees the glue may not freeze at the same time.

But by the time the glue freezes it would be too late as the glue would be degraded and possibly separated or whatever else Jim was initially warning us about.

Among my real concerns about the heated water solution is that no matter how well insulated the container is it will eventually lose its heat retaining properties. Overnight it may not be a big deal, but over 2 or 3 days it would be. A pipe heater set at 45 would not kick in if the temp was above 45 but would be there for when the temps are lower.

Since I can remember what I was doing 5 minutes ago, nevermind Saturday night when I locked the door for the last time for the weekend I can't say that Monday morning when I come in that I would remember to check the glue in the cup of tepid water. So Wednesday when I finally need to join frames I might find the glue sitting in a cup shaped block of ice. or in water that is below the "danger zone" of 40 degrees. But if it were in a room with a low temp porta heater the glue would be safe from my lack of a functioning attention span.
 
Bob Doyle said:
Among my real concerns about the heated water solution is that no matter how well insulated the container is it will eventually lose its heat retaining properties.... So Wednesday when I finally need to join frames I might find the glue sitting in a cup shaped block of ice. or in water that is below the "danger zone" of 40 degrees.
Click to expand...

Good Heavens, man. How cold do keep your shop??

Physics is not my strength, but as far as I know, if the night setback/weekend temperature setting is 63 degrees F, the temperature inside the cooler, days after the hot water's heat has dissipated, would never dip below 63 degrees F. Freezing inside my shop is not an issue.
 
Gosh, 20 years ago I went "back" to a glue pot and hide glue, but because I wanted the reversibility; PVA glues are not reversible. You might try zapping your glue in the microwave for a few seconds at a time til it's warm. Once you know the time you can guesstimate as the level in the bottle lowers.

I use the microwave to heat hide glue gesso, just before application. Just don't melt the plastic glue bottle.
 
My husband suggested this....

If you can find a metal box with adequate "head space", you can mount a small lamp upside down with a low wattage bulb... and simply keep it plugged in.
 
Keeping any glue from freezing or at least 20 degrees above freezing is mandatory. Anything more then that is really not necessary. I had a large cabinetry firm for 22 years. Shop heat was 48 at night and 60 was the warmest we ever had it in all of those years during the days. We used woodworking glue by the gallons on hundreds and hundreds of projects. Never a failure,ever. Will the glue perform (setup) a little better when warmer,sure. All you need for excellent performance is 60 degrees +
All the things being discussed to warm your adhesives up to 70 degrees + or - are just not worth the efforts. YOMV.
 
The only glue I am having any problem with is the newly created Dust Cover Glue. Low temperatures have never caused any of my other water-borne glues to malfunction.

Even heating it does not seem to bring back any degree of stickiness to it. Ironing it down works OK but is a real PITA.

So the search goes on, for me at least - to find a perfect glue for dust covers.

*sigh*
 
Framar said:
The only glue I am having any problem with is the newly created Dust Cover Glue. Low temperatures have never caused any of my other water-borne glues to malfunction.

Even heating it does not seem to bring back any degree of stickiness to it. Ironing it down works OK but is a real PITA.

So the search goes on, for me at least - to find a perfect glue for dust covers.

*sigh*
Click to expand...



What about shelf life? What does the mfg. say? Have you ordered a seperate lot to try? Could be something working against you here other then temperature issues?
 
Dan, this is a new product (newly invented and recently purchased) - worked in the warm weather and now since I have not kept it over 65° it is not working the way it did unless I iron it down.
 
I do not want to sound like I am slagging this Dust Cover Glue - until the weather turned cold it was the best glue I have ever used.

All I am saying is depending on your location or your lifestyle, unless you can keep the temperature of your surroundings 65° or over it will not be suitable.

I am personally unable to support the lifestyle this glue demands. My step mom could use it all year round because they keep her assisted living facility at (ack!) 74° year round but driving my framing to her place every day for papering would not be feasible. ;)
 
Dan Berg said:
What about shelf life? What does the mfg. say? Have you ordered a seperate lot to try? Could be something working against you here other then temperature issues?
Click to expand...

Pretty sure the mfg is getting the word out that all glue is similarly affected it's just that no one notices it and for crying out loud you should be putting all your glue in a hotbox overnight.

Just took a while to get there.

But that's a guess. I suppose Framar should give them a call.
 
:bdh:

I gave them a call - they said this particular glue has less tolerance for cold than other glues.

It is the only glue I have ever had problems with in cold weather - everything else has worked fine and I have been keeping the heat low for at least 20 of my 40 years of framing.

Using Frank's now - works just fine.
 
The chopper room has been known to be nippy enough to see your breath on a Tuesday morning as the place recovers from sub freezing weather.

Wondering one especially cold week-end, I placed a thermometer on the floor... it was a toasty 38 degrees.

I never thought about the gallon of Frank's Fabric Adhesive sitting right there on the concrete.

The stupid Maxim was doing it's rendition of slow molasses, so I ended up grabbing the Frank's to put the frames together..... and have been doing it ever since. (Now if it actually froze.... that might be a different story).

My wood shop is unheated.... and the Titebond II and III regularly freeze in the winter..... I just stick the bottle in a pan of hot water for about 20 minutes.... and continue as usual.

But then..... "Things are different here" (official state motto).

So tell me Jim, who is this "National Mfg" that is putting out this word, and if (in your words) this is not a new problem, just nobody noticed it before.... Is this a colder winter? Or is this an Obama problem?
 
Could be GCC and the change in the lignins in the trees due to the advancing pine bark beetles.

Got a feeling it is just a repackaged watered down glue issue.
 
My Maxim glue doesn't have as strong a hold when applied cold as it does warm. I've been putting a little bottle of the glue in the microwave for a few seconds to heat it up and that's worked fine.

However, for those of you in search of a heating element for your glues, try a seedling heating mat. (They are meant for starting plants in colder months.) I'd put one in a box with the glue and let it keep them warm. The mats usually heat the seddling's roots to 10-20 degress warmer than the ambient temp - when it sound like would be more than enough for most frame shops.
 
The seedling mat seems like a safe solution. Very little electricity and since they are designed to work when wet there is little risk of fire or becoming too hot. Light bulbs and the heating pad scare me. The plumbing heat tape would be my second choice. I don't let the temp in my shop drop below 64F. I don't want to have more than a 10 degree swing in temperature in any 24 hr period.

I haven't encountered any problems with Corner Weld or Maxim glues. The chopper room is another story...When the temps are subzero outside, the temp in there approaches freezing. On these very cold days, I am obsessive enough to bring moulding inside to warm it up for a few hours before cutting. I don't know if it makes any difference other than making me feel better.
 
wvframer said:
...I haven't encountered any problems with Corner Weld or Maxim glues.
Click to expand...

In joining frames with any of our typical water-borne wood glues, where the joints are secured by v-nails or other fasteners, and in other applications where the bonded surfaces remain undisturbed after joining, we might never notice the delay in set up and drying time caused by moderately low temperatures.

The bonding delay caused by low temperature might be noticed only in applications where we rely on immediate bonding, such as gluing a dustcover, or joining mat layers together using dots of glue, as some of us do instead of using ATG.

...When the temps are subzero outside, the temp in there approaches freezing. On these very cold days, I am obsessive enough to bring moulding inside to warm it up for a few hours before cutting. I don't know if it makes any difference other than making me feel better.
Click to expand...

Freezing the glue would change its chemistry forever and ruin its bonding strength, so if you suspect the glue has frozen, even partially, throw it away. But if the temperature does not dip to 32 F, the glue should retain its bonding stength, even if it is delayed, and it should function normally again after it is warmed to a temperature of mid-70s F, as recommended for all of the wood glues I've used.
 
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