I've been bamboozled

[BatesMotel]

I recently put Nielsen and Bainbridge ready mades in my store. I liked the fact that everything was acid free and had conservation glass. If I was going to carry ready mades I at least wanted to carry a quality product I could feel good about recommending to my customers if custom framing was to expensive for them. I was lead to believe that only independent stores would be carrying this line. I shelled out all this money to get the shelving unit and a bunch of ready mades to fill it.
I recently had a customer come in wanting to do three old photos of the kids for her dad inexpensively. She was looking at the readymades we had in stock but even $57.00 a frame was to much. So she said cut the mats to make them fit into a 16x20, do the mounting and hold the frames, she would be right back. We did the work she requested. She came back an hour latter with 3 of these Nielson Bainbridge frames Archival quality that she got at Bed Bath and Beyond for only $20 something bucks! I'm so ticked off at N&B it's not even funny. Here I am trying to carry a unique line of ready mads and then they sell the same line to a BIG BOX! The worst part is they are almost 1/2 the price that is listed in the price chart THEY told me to use! So I lost the sale of these ready mades and they are sitting back on the shelf. I wont be ordering any more of those. I now have a new Evil name in my book.

 

[Jerry Ervin]

I feel your pain.

I ventured down the same road and have seen the same conclusion.

 

[Steph]

Which ones, can I ask. Is it their new Eco line or the new Vivid photo frames?

 

[Paul N]

I knew I was right when I declined to carry them.

I am sure somebody here would defend their right to sell those at outrageous discounts to Big Boxes. It still ain't right to me.

 

[UzZx32QU]

Does "they don't care about retail framers" hit home. I saw the line and wanted to buy but knew as soon as it got sold to retailers they would dump it to a BB for pennies on the dollar and kill the retailer. I've dumped all my readymades and photo frames. I am going just custom. I don't have a problem sending that market to others.

framer

 

[Maryann]

When I bought them I specifically asked them if the BB's would be carrying them. I don't compete with the BB's and don't want to be carrying anything that they have. They told me NO! I know we're all struggling in this market, but don't lie to my face.

 

[Jerry Ervin]

When I bought them I specifically asked them if the BB's would be carrying them. I don't compete with the BB's and don't want to be carrying anything that they have. They told me NO! I know we're all struggling in this market, but don't lie to my face.

DITTO!

 

[Steph]

I guess this shouldn't be a great surprise, huh. Well the only ones I have taken on are the vivid photo frames. I passed on all the others. As a rule I have stayed away from having readymades here, just because of the offerings at all BB's. Well it's a kick in the pants, but we all must move on. Ackt!

 

[Jim Miller]

I agree that any seller would be unwise to lie to any customer. On the other hand, it would be unreasonable to expect a supplier to reserve any such product for limited-sales-potential outlets like most of our frame shops. How could any small independent frame shop owner be surprised that mass marketers sell tons of production-type ready made frames, and that mass-producers are eager to sell to them?

Some framers sell a lot of photo frames and production-type ready made frames. More power to them. My guess is they do not have market conditions like mine. To wit:

In the strip shopping center where my shop is located, a Bed Bath & Beyond store is at the other end of the sidewalk. JoAnne and Wal-Mart are within a mile, and you'd pass the new Target store on the way there. Michaels and Hobby Lobby are both within three miles. Kohl's is less than a mile away, as are CVS and Walgreen pharmacies, and a Kroger (grocery) super store. All of these mass marketers stock more photo frames and/or ready made frames than my shop would hold.

So, in a neighborhood like this, how many consumers would come to a little frame shop to buy a photo frame or "standard" ready made frame? The correct answer in my case is almost zero, proven by several years of direct experience.

I stock "All Purpose" frames in standard sizes, which we make from leftovers of our custom frames, including glass and mats. They're good frames, but made mostly from scrap materials of little value, and priced accordingly. With a fair margin of profit, we sell them to customers who come in thinking they want a custom frame for the price of a ready made.

We also use the small ones as give-away frames in some promotional campaigns, with good results.

 

[Kirstie]

We have reordered some profiles from the Artcare ready made line, but not many.Customers liked the 33 thin line series. Now that I see that they are carried by the bbs I won't reorder again. They were mediocre sellers anyway. Thanks for the tip off.

We also make our own frames for RM sales but can't keep up with demand, so we purchase from Tracy (now Valley) and a few others. Shops that carry these seem to have a strong following for them. They are inexpensive and well made.

Having said this we are cutting our orders back for this holiday season. We are watching every penny in this economy.

 

[Rick Granick]

I remember seeing NB readymades featuring Artcare mats and CC glass in Stein Mart or T J Maxx at least 3 or 4 years ago. My store space is at a premium, so I use it for framed models rather than mass merchandise. If someone is looking for readymades, I steer them toward stores I know don't do custom framing.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick

 

[BatesMotel]

Which ones, can I ask. Is it their new Eco line or the new Vivid photo frames?

It was the Tribeca frame in black. My chart tells me to sell that one for $42.00 and and the girl that took the job in said Bed Bath and Beyond was selling it for $27.00. I went back to check it out and the had and 11X14 for $15 and a 16X20 for $20.

"When I bought them I specifically asked them if the BB's would be carrying them. I don't compete with the BB's and don't want to be carrying anything that they have. They told me NO! I know we're all struggling in this market, but don't lie to my face."

Maryann, I to was told what they told you! I called my rep on it and gave her an ear full! She said she called headquarters and was told yes they set up an account with them but are only selling a few profiles. Like me telling her I saw them in there wasn't proof enough.
So move on I will. I will move on to make my own Archival ready mades. In this economy I will probably have plenty of time to do it now!

 

[PaulSF]

Did I mention the time I found Roma photo frames at a car wash in San Francisco? Oh yes, they heard about that from a lot of folks.

 

[MabSadie2]

I know in a free market we can't expect any one company to not sell to large retailers. But why would NB want to dilute their brand this way? If you are a frame discounter, you only sell discount frames IMO.

NB needs to sell those $57 dollar frames more than they need to sell $20 frames. That's just short sightedness and now they've lost not only you but everyone you told. Serves them right.

 

[Rick Granick]

The least they could do would be change the brand name and logo so that people don't make a direct association.
Rick

 

[RoboFramer]

I remember seeing NB readymades featuring Artcare mats and CC glass

Was it really CC glass as in Tru Vu and with a similar level of protection though?

I too have just taken on a RMF deal with NB - artcare mounts and 'UV' glass - X amount of frames gets a free display stand - all frames nicely boxed etc etc.

There are stickers on the glass saying "protects from damage from sun and UV light" which is false - UV glass does not block sunlight/daylight. This is repeated on the packaging.

I had a piece tested and it is 60 - 70% UV filtering, which is nothing - normal glass is 54%.

So if this applies to your frames you could demand a refund on the strength of that (personally I'll just remove that information and not re-order) - as well as on the strength of being told the BBs would not be selling them.

 

[danny boy]

What ever happened to accountability? I know we need to keep both of our eyes open as business owners and framers, but these guys are suppose to be 'the good guys'.... I would like to think that for what ever reason NB did this, they would at least own up to their actions. Wasn't it NB who made their exclusive conservation lines available to BB and craft stores in a very big way? I think it was also NB who introduced a new line of Vivid's and limited the profile selection availability away from the independent custom framer. I want to be different than the other guys. It's the only way I can survive. Maybe we need to carefully evaluate which products we will carry and which ones we will leave to the masses? Suddenly I am feeling more independent than ever before. While it is a company's right to decide who, what, or where they will sell, remember that I can do the same thing. Shame on you NB for lying. Why do you continue to disappoint us?

 

[Maryann]

While it is a company's right to decide who, what, or where they will sell, remember that I can do the same thing. Shame on you NB for lying. Why do you continue to disappoint us?

I agree. It is absolutely their right. But I asked the question and was told they would NOT be sold to the BB's. I can't/won't do business with a company like that. Don't care how big they are. I can live without their products.

 

[nikfrz]

They all do it. LJ, Decor, Omega. But if you are lied to,he should be losing his job. This is just plain wrong!!

 

[Kirstie]

Was it really CC glass as in Tru Vu and with a similar level of protection though?

I too have just taken on a RMF deal with NB - artcare mounts and 'UV' glass - X amount of frames gets a free display stand - all frames nicely boxed etc etc.

There are stickers on the glass saying "protects from damage from sun and UV light" which is false - UV glass does not block sunlight/daylight. This is repeated on the packaging.

I had a piece tested and it is 60 - 70% UV filtering, which is nothing - normal glass is 54%.

So if this applies to your frames you could demand a refund on the strength of that (personally I'll just remove that information and not re-order) - as well as on the strength of being told the BBs would not be selling them.

Jonh, I think I have a photo of those somehwere....

yes. Are these the ones? These are the ones we bought last year.

http://www.framersworkshop.com/Ideas/giftspix/ArtcareBack.jpg

 

[BatesMotel]

That would be the line but not the profile I saw in BB&B.

 

[Puppyraiser]

So if they produced 1,000,000 frames to be sold to indies, but the indies only bought 500,000 of them, would you expect them to warehouse the frames because they promised not to sell to big discounters, or would you expect the company to mark 'em down and get 'em out?

 

[HarryGMCPF]

So if they produced 1,000,000 frames to be sold to indies, but the indies only bought 500,000 of them, would you expect them to warehouse the frames because they promised not to sell to big discounters, or would you expect the company to mark 'em down and get 'em out?

Selll them to the indies at a discount..... or at least offer them. We might surprise them and actually buy the stuff.

I looked at the new Eco and Vivid lines, and passed. I did not see the value in it for me adn my marketplace. There are a lot of really nice readymade frames out there for a lot less $$$$$ than those would have to sell for. And let's not fool ourselves. The market for such a product (Eco - Vivid) is not so great that it is a HUGE marketing hook.

Dissapointing, but not surprising to hear this.

 

[Jim Miller]

...But why would NB want to dilute their brand this way? If you are a frame discounter, you only sell discount frames IMO.

I agree that purposely selling through mass-market discount retailers would devalue the brand, compared to its former status. But as Ellen pointed out, if the company is desperate for new strategies to prop up sagging sales in the changing market, maybe they are willing to accept that change in our perception of the brand.

NB probably does not believe their sales to mass marketers "dilute their brand", and the consumer-buyers probably don't either. As consumers, most of us would not disrespect a brand simply because we can buy it at discounted prices.

As a hypothetical example, if you could buy a known-to-be-genuine and highly-sought-after GucciHoochi handbag at TJ Maxx for $150 instead of the $275 MSRP at Nordstrom, would you think less of the brand? Probably not, but you might think less of Nordstrom.

 

[BILL WARD]

"They told me NO!"


and I'll love you as much in the morning as I do tonight.............

 

[Jim Miller]

Was it really CC glass as in Tru Vu and with a similar level of protection though?...

There are stickers on the glass saying "protects from damage from sun and UV light" which is false - UV glass does not block sunlight/daylight. This is repeated on the packaging.

That's a fair question, Robo. If the glass were from Tru-Vue, the package labeling would probably include the Tru-Vue brand name and mention their published 99% UV filtering capability.

...I had a piece tested and it is 60 - 70% UV filtering, which is nothing - normal glass is 54%.

You are correct that ordinary glass and all other glazing products filter some UV light. But it seems odd that you would go to the expense of tests performed by a professional scientific testing laboratory. Or were the tests done otherwise; by a university laboratory or such? Wouldn't it have been easier to just ask the company to back up their claim by giving the specific UV filtering percentage and its tested range?

UV filtering capability can be easily misunderstood, because it is necessary to specify the range of light frequencies included in the tests. For instance, Tru-Vue publishes that their UV filtering is based on tests of 300 to 380 nanometers. In other frequencies, the filtering may be considerably less, or the harm of the light in those frequencies may be insignificant, or impractical to control. Visible light in the range of 400 to 700 nanometers is somewhat harmful, but filtering that range would directly affect visibility through the glass.

As I understand it (and I'm no scientist), the claimed UV filtering usually is an aggregate of test results for each of the specific frequencies in the range. For example, the tests might prove filtering percentages of 99.8% at 322nm, 96.7% at 323nm, 99.3% at 324nm, and so on throughout frequency range tested by an accepted method involving specific hardware and software. Then the published UV filtering percentage for the specific frequency range would result from an accepted method of averaging the test results for all of the individual frequencies.

 

[Jill]

I wish this was a surprise but

In the area I am dealing with this is happening with artists and craft shows.

I picked up a new artists "canvas" additions at a wholesale show only to go to a local craft fair selling the same art for less then he did at the "wholesale " show.

I have started doing ready mades out of a suppliers "bargain chops" and am doing well with these. the price point is beyond low and I can sell them as open backs or table tops, Knowing that they will never show up at the local BB.

I am with you and do not reorder things that show up in craft fairs or BB.

Thanks for the heads up on that line by the way.

 

[DTWDSM]

Has anyone talked to their rep to see if the same is going to happen with the ecco line?

 

[freakquency]

Selll them to the indies at a discount..... or at least offer them. We might surprise them and actually buy the stuff.


Dissapointing, but not surprising to hear this.

that would require much more overhead.... selling to bb's means selling to one buyer. while selling to a multitude of small businesses means selling to a multitude of buyers.. thus resources, staff etc expenditures. It's good business sense to sell to the one not the many... that must be a Vulcan sales philosophy somewhere...

 

[RoboFramer]

it seems odd that you would go to the expense of tests performed by a professional scientific testing laboratory. Or were the tests done otherwise; by a university laboratory or such? Wouldn't it have been easier to just ask the company to back up their claim by giving the specific UV filtering percentage and its tested range?.

I asked, at the product launch, what the percentage was and was told 90%+.

The glass was tested by a glass supplier. One of the frames had a broken piece so I replaced it with CC. I looked more closely at the broken piece - saw no ripple at all; no more discoloration than normal glass, I could score either side and extra fine steel wool did not scratch either side. Handed the bits to my rep on his next visit.

So I already guessed something was up, bar the fact that these frames would not protect from sunlight - and where would the buck stop when presented with a faded photo hung in a South facing conservatory etc?

Anyway - the whole concept of a 'Museum' quality ready made frame is a bit questionable anyway - the customer won't seal it and will probably stick the artwork in with masking tape or band aid!

 

[RoboFramer]

Jonh, I think I have a photo of those somehwere....

yes. Are these the ones? These are the ones we bought last year.

http://www.framersworkshop.com/Ideas/giftspix/ArtcareBack.jpg

That's the exact same packaging - the little silver sticker mentions protection from 'Sun & UV light' I've removed all mine!

It says on your website that the glass in these frames is the same UV glass that you use yourself. I don't know what the stuff in mine is, but it's not the same as I use (CC).

 

[MabSadie2]

As a hypothetical example, if you could buy a known-to-be-genuine and highly-sought-after GucciHoochi handbag at TJ Maxx for $150 instead of the $275 MSRP at Nordstrom, would you think less of the brand? Probably not, but you might think less of Nordstrom.

I'm following you so far. TJ Maxx, Filene's Basement and Nordstrom Rack as I understand it are selling the previous years fashions or imperfects that come through the system. The designer designs, the department store buys and then the unsolds go to the discount store as the department store makes room for the new fashions.

NB here is the designer selling the same product at the same time to both the department store and the discount store, except the discount store gets a great deal and the department store is stuck with the inventory that is being sold cheaper down the street. Still not a good way to do business. How much future business is Bates going to give NB in the future?

As a new product, Jordache jeans belong at Target and Calvin Kleins in a department store. You can buy last year's CK jeans at Ross without diluting the brand, but if the new jeans are sold to Ross and Macys, then CK has just shot their brand in the stomach and that's bad.

 

[SportShots]

The rep told you they would not be selling to these businesses.

What part of LIE don't folks here understand?

Yes, that is enough to stop buying from a supplier unless and until you find he was told this and it was an honest mistake... somehow.

 

[Jim Miller]

...I looked more closely at the broken piece - saw no ripple at all...I could score either side and extra fine steel wool did not scratch either side...

Well, at least you know one brand that it is not. Tru-Vue's TruGuard UV coating is quite consistent and distinctive.

...and where would the buck stop when presented with a faded photo hung in a South facing conservatory etc?

As a practical matter, no maker or merchant of UV-filtering glazing products would make any assurances about prevention of light damage for any amount of time. All light is damaging, depending on intensity of the light and time of exposure. And some framed items are more susceptible to light damage than others.

The truth is that light damage cannot be stopped, other than eliminating all light exposure. For example, if a typical photograph or art print framed with 99% UV-filtering glass were placed in direct sunlight all day, the damage would probably be noticeable within a matter of weeks, or maybe even days, regardless of using the best-protective glazing available.

There is no doubt that the claim of UV filtering on the packaging you described would be misleading. Like politicians, marketing experts tend to use words and phrases for their best advantage. The question is not one of honesty, but legality. In that case the claim of "UV filtering" would be misleading, but it may not be illegal -- after all, it would filter some UV light, just not enough to call it "preservation" by generally accepted framing standards. Shame on the supplier for doing that. No court could convict them for it, unfortunately. On the other hand, if a framer told a customer that the glass would stop fading, then that specific claim would not hold up in court.

 

[Jim Miller]

The rep told you they would not be selling to these businesses.

What part of LIE don't folks here understand?

Looking back through the thread, I don't see anyone excusing statements by individual salespeople about how the products would be marketed, which would be misleading at best, and outright lies at worst.

The chances are pretty good that the company never told them that, but we have to expect the company to accept responsibility for its representatives.

 

[Jim Miller]

...NB here is the designer selling the same product at the same time to both the department store and the discount store, except the discount store gets a great deal and the department store is stuck with the inventory that is being sold cheaper down the street....

You make a good point about the differences between consumer items that have a specifically-finite market life, such as clothing; and items that have infinite life, such as frames.

However, in my limited experience, most consumers fail to recognize the distinction, which is why they fall for the marketing ploy of deep discounts on framing.

The cut-the-price-and-sell-large-volume marketing by major manufacturers may be the main cause of extinction for small, independent retail merchants in general. Hobby shops, drug stores, grocery stores, clothing stores, shoe stores, jewelers and others have seen their customers run to mass-merchants who offer seemingly-similar manufactured products at prices below their cost. Perhaps one advantage we have, as custom framers, is that our products are individually-crafted and most folks would not send their family heirlooms to Brazil, Mexico, or China, et al, for framing.

 

[Jeff Rodier]

Make them take them back. By doing this you are forcing them to look at what they have done to their most profitable market. Don't pay the invoice or demand credit if it has already been paid.

We have a lot of power in this industry but we forget to flex our muscles. THEY LIED TO YOU SO YOU MUST DEMAND ACTION.

 

[MabSadie2]

I had similar situation with a rep who lied to me. This is in regards to advertising, but theoutcome may make you pause. The company in question dragged out the dispute of my bill, the rep told me it was handled and then two months later, the legal department is on the phone and instead of the $250 bill in dispute, I was now on the hook for $2700 because they had called in my entire advertising contract because that $250 bill hadn't been paid. Now, does one take on a national company or just take a deep breath and knock out a year's advertising in one month. I chose option B, but I will never ever do business with that company again. Your rep lied to me was just a shrug to them and that makes all the difference.

See if you can get repaid. If they will take their product back, I say give em another chance. If not, see ya.

 

[Kirstie]

Has anyone talked to their rep to see if the same is going to happen with the ecco line?

Very good point. We held off on these and will until we see where this is going. There are plenty of green moulding sources avaialble so that we could make our own green frames if we wanted to.

I think Green may be ont he back burner for a bit until the economy settles. Right now people are incredibly price conscious at the shop.

 

[BatesMotel]

Just got my local paper with the M's add in it. Guess what they were advertising in it, the vivid line of readymades. NB just came out with these a couple month ago so there goes the theory they sold their overstock to get rid of them. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ecco Line is next to follow suit.