Its 11:40 AM and we've already burned over $100 wholesale in bad glass
- Thread starter johnny
- Start date
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
One of these items will make it stand out like a sore thumb.
http://www.gainsboroughproducts.com/uvl_inspection.html
http://www.gainsboroughproducts.com/uvl_inspection.html
Thank you for the suggestion. I've got one of those at home. I guess we're going to sacrifice the square footage to make an inspection table near the glass storage and cutter and we'll try that.
Maybe a surface on an angle with one of those criss-cross glass elevator things on it, can't think of what they are called.
Maybe a surface on an angle with one of those criss-cross glass elevator things on it, can't think of what they are called.
CAframer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Easiest thing ... Fletcher Lite-Grip placed over a sheet of black foamboard or black matboard.
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
You could keep a sheet of black mat board at the wall cutter and just slip it behind the glass and light before positioning the glass for cutting.
CAframer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Or for a quick & dirty check, have a black mat on the floor between glass storage and cutter ... 
Rob Markoff
PFG, Picture Framing God
A black background wouldn't help in our situation.
Lately our MG has been riddled with small bubbles or black specks that are only visible when put directly on top of a white mat.
Lately our MG has been riddled with small bubbles or black specks that are only visible when put directly on top of a white mat.
I've had the black specks also. If the specks are near the edge and I can salvage the glass for a smaller piece I will. I have sent back glass to LJ even after it's been cut. They took it back, no problem and gave a credit for the bad glass. It doesn't matter much if it's been cut or not. If it's bad, it's bad. It's just going to be scrapped anyway. I have sent back an entire box of conservation clear with black specks and it was credited and replaced.
It would be nice if quality control would catch these problems before it gets to the framer, but at least they stand behind the product.
One reason I want to inspect before cutting is so I can get credit for pieces, like today's, that are defective in a way that it's hard to salvage much value. I've never asked for credit on any glass yet but this is getting costly.
I was trying to figure a way to inspect the piece on black and then white backgrounds before cutting. What a waste of time and money. And space, not only for an inspection station but also more space to store offcuts while trying to salvage value out of pieces.
Why not just return them? I don't know how pleased Larson would be if I had a daily request for glass reimbursements. I know they can get reimbursed themselves, but in all cases I don't know and even so it costs time and money to go through the process. My profit on a lite of Museum might be more than their profit on a whole case, I don't know but I bet it's close. I think we have a responsibility to at least try to use this stuff while still lodging complaints.
In the big fail today, the 32 x 40 museum lite looked like it might have been packaged by Wolverine with three large scrapes down the center, making salvaged value minimal. I'd feel bad for requesting credit because Larson already went out of their way to help me with the defective white fabric matboard for this order. It looked as thought the fabric had been put down on a substrate that had dark markings all over it so the fabric then looked splotchie. Of course this was a rush, and I called them to get another one and they discovered that all their boards had the same problem. But we were able to save the order because the same fabric came in oversized and I picked up the sheet 20 mins before they closed, we stayed here late to get the complicated wedding shadowbox done. Thank you Larson for being open all day on Friday. Only thing that was perfect was the moulding and I needlessly ordered double to make sure, heh.
Sure would have been nice to make a real profit on that order.
I understand how you feel about returns, but LJ and Tru Vue are large companies. We are charged and are charging a premium price for a premium product and that product has to be delivered to us in perfect condition. We can't tell a client that they have to accept scratches or flaws in a piece of glass or flaws in a mat that they just paid hundreds of dollars for.
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I have found that the larger number of lites in Museum seem to cause a much larger number of problems. I did a rush job of 15 pieces in 16x20 with Museum recently. We sized it with a weighted bottom so the glass would not need to be cut since I had only 4 hours to fit the pieces. The 15 piece job with Museum went out with 4 that had flaws in the glass and the last piece from the 16 lite box was completely unusable.
In my opinion a 30% flaw rate is completely unacceptable. I have not even shown another piece of Museum since then. Based on that job with Museum I would have to charge a 6 time mark up on the product to just break even on time versus using clear glass. That would make the frame job exactly 100% more than my full price on Conservation Clear with full conservation framing. That is my break even point and would not give me one dime of additional profit for the high blood pressure it creates.
In my opinion a 30% flaw rate is completely unacceptable. I have not even shown another piece of Museum since then. Based on that job with Museum I would have to charge a 6 time mark up on the product to just break even on time versus using clear glass. That would make the frame job exactly 100% more than my full price on Conservation Clear with full conservation framing. That is my break even point and would not give me one dime of additional profit for the high blood pressure it creates.
nikfrz
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I've had a few problems with CC glass. Nothing major.
I've had a few problems with MG. Now that's another story.
My customers expect perfection at those prices, and I expect the same from my vendor. It should be flawless.
I've had a few problems with MG. Now that's another story.
My customers expect perfection at those prices, and I expect the same from my vendor. It should be flawless.
I have seen some pieces of conservation glass and museum glass that had black specs. Sometimes, if the specs are in the UV coating, you can take a razor blade and pick at the specs. Often times the specs will come out and allow the glass to be usable again. I am not sure if these are the types of specs you are seeing but it might be worth a try the next time you see them.
Puppiesonacid
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2008
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And i was about to start a new thread about how bad the glass was getting...
Guess i will be getting some new glass, cause thats all they will listen to...
had bad museum glass, and bad con clear... brand new boxes of each, and it all had problems.
scratches and spots on the museum, and bubbles in the con clear
Guess i will be getting some new glass, cause thats all they will listen to...
had bad museum glass, and bad con clear... brand new boxes of each, and it all had problems.
scratches and spots on the museum, and bubbles in the con clear
I've been getting some pits too, like a tiny little gnome golfer had a diamond edged chipping wedge and went golfing across the glass
Had 2 fossils so far... bugs with the coating over them.
If your customer finds a flaw in a frame you built, would you want the customer to bring it back and give you the opportunity to make it right, or would you prefer to have the customer only complain to friends, your other potential customers? Or, if your customer's neighbor calls you to say she heard your framing was defective, but your customer never mentions it, what good would it do?
Kudos to you. Yes, it doesn't matter whether or not the glass has been cut, and that's the way the warranty works. Neither the distibutor nor the maker expects any framer to use a defective product.
Remaining silent about a defect cuts directly into your net profit. You buy it, you handle it and you scrap it with zero return? You might as well feed those dollars into the shredder. Asking for replacement is an inconvenience with a cost, but a minor one, compared to throwing the money away.
Aside from the total loss of your money, letting the manufacturer off the hook only perpetuates the problem. Complaints without the exchange of product are worthless, because they typically do not go up the supply chain. But if they did, it would be a marketing problem, not a quality problem.
Insulating your distributor from having to deal with a defective product would be counterproductive. Distributors would rather have an opportunity to keep your business by replacing the defective product, which provides an audit trail of defects/replacements for them and for the manufacturer. Prove to them that the problem exists, and make them pay the price for it.
Of course, a framer could simply refuse to sell the glass. But that would only deprive customers of the premium product's benefits, as well as reduce the framer's revenue and profit. For most of us, that would not be a winning strategy.
It doesn't matter whether we're talking about glass, matboards, moulding, or any other product we buy. Instead of insulating from loss those reponsible for the defective product, taking the whole loss yourself, and complaining, send it back for replacement.
Kudos to you. Yes, it doesn't matter whether or not the glass has been cut, and that's the way the warranty works. Neither the distibutor nor the maker expects any framer to use a defective product.
Remaining silent about a defect cuts directly into your net profit. You buy it, you handle it and you scrap it with zero return? You might as well feed those dollars into the shredder. Asking for replacement is an inconvenience with a cost, but a minor one, compared to throwing the money away.
Aside from the total loss of your money, letting the manufacturer off the hook only perpetuates the problem. Complaints without the exchange of product are worthless, because they typically do not go up the supply chain. But if they did, it would be a marketing problem, not a quality problem.
Insulating your distributor from having to deal with a defective product would be counterproductive. Distributors would rather have an opportunity to keep your business by replacing the defective product, which provides an audit trail of defects/replacements for them and for the manufacturer. Prove to them that the problem exists, and make them pay the price for it.
Of course, a framer could simply refuse to sell the glass. But that would only deprive customers of the premium product's benefits, as well as reduce the framer's revenue and profit. For most of us, that would not be a winning strategy.
It doesn't matter whether we're talking about glass, matboards, moulding, or any other product we buy. Instead of insulating from loss those reponsible for the defective product, taking the whole loss yourself, and complaining, send it back for replacement.
cwiser
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
I've just recently run into a problem with TrueView too. Both CC and Reflection control, small scratches and black specks. I was able to use it but still a pain and had to let a couple get by with small scratches that shouldn't be there.
Distributors just distribute...
their vendors manufacture the glass...
if you let the distributor know about the issues, and want credit for problem glass, generally the discributor will get a credit from the vendor... and the circle of life continues...
Communicate the issues and all will (should) get some satisfacton, as everyone is a customer of someone!
their vendors manufacture the glass...
if you let the distributor know about the issues, and want credit for problem glass, generally the discributor will get a credit from the vendor... and the circle of life continues...
Communicate the issues and all will (should) get some satisfacton, as everyone is a customer of someone!
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
OK, so are you absolutely positive you don't have a scratchy spot on your wall cutter? I was getting really upset with "shoddy glass" and "all those scratches quality control didn't catch." Couldn't figure out why all the scratches were in the same spot...... Turned out some sticker on the cutter had frayed edges and all the scratches were my fault. I cut a new alpha mat board and covered the cutter glass support. I showed someone how to cut glass and now have to replace the mat board.
Think of it as a slip sheet for your wall cutter
Think of it as a slip sheet for your wall cutter
Dave
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I'm glad you you brought this up, Bob. I have not seen any increase in flaws in either CC or MG glass recently and have completed about 30 pieces with MG in the past 6 weeks. I do recall one black speck on one lite about an inch from the edge which I caught and cut out.
Black specks are one thing, scratches are another. I would be inclined to think that the chance of scratches happening within individual frame shops is far more likely than in the production and packaging of the glass. Not saying that some glass may slip through with a scratch but far less likely than in individual shops.
Black specks are one thing, scratches are another. I would be inclined to think that the chance of scratches happening within individual frame shops is far more likely than in the production and packaging of the glass. Not saying that some glass may slip through with a scratch but far less likely than in individual shops.
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Maybe Jim, or a Fletcher knowledgeable Grumbler will chime in about this, but I was under some maybe mistaken impression that you were supposed to have a "slip sheet" on the 3000 to help prevent scratches in coated glass anyways. Does anyone else use a "slip sheet"? Would tyvek work better than matboard?
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
My 16x20's were not cut and coming right out of the box laying flat on the table with each lite lifted up and not slid. The larger number of lites in a box is poor packaging for an expensive product. Most of the damage was the result of glass chips between the lites. The smaller boxes did not have this problem. The last piece was an obvious flaw that would have been found by a blind man with a white cane.
There was also no way the prewashed glass could be used without cleaning because it was not at all clean. Now as far as returning the bad glass on this job there was no way it could happen since I only had 4 hours to fit the pictures. I would have needed to buy an extra $300 box of glass just in case and based on the rate of flaws and damage would have had $200 in unused glass left over after the credit.
The flaws that went out were not bad and many people would just use them but in my book a flaw is a flaw. One of the many many reasons I don't like basic black moulding is that a spec in the finish even 1/64" is a flaw. I don't include those flaws in my ready made frames either so it just goes in the dumpster afet cutting around specs.
There was also no way the prewashed glass could be used without cleaning because it was not at all clean. Now as far as returning the bad glass on this job there was no way it could happen since I only had 4 hours to fit the pictures. I would have needed to buy an extra $300 box of glass just in case and based on the rate of flaws and damage would have had $200 in unused glass left over after the credit.
The flaws that went out were not bad and many people would just use them but in my book a flaw is a flaw. One of the many many reasons I don't like basic black moulding is that a spec in the finish even 1/64" is a flaw. I don't include those flaws in my ready made frames either so it just goes in the dumpster afet cutting around specs.