It has to breathe...must be alive

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MIK

MIK

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
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2,668
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Pueblo, Colorado
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Classic Corner
This came with the artwork. I thought you would like the chuckle of the day.


" Framing your Art

Although Akiane’s prints on canvas have a crisp, modern look when displayed on stretcher bars because the deep, rich surface texture of canvas works well either framed or unframed you may want to consider framing. If so, remember, canvas needs to “breathe” therefore we do not recommend covering the canvas with mats, glass or acrylic. Consult with your local gallery or framing professional. They are trained to assist you in further enhancing your art with a framing solution that meets your personal decorating needs."


"Please Note: Your Giclée is on canvas and needs to “breathe”. We do not suggest mats, acrylic panes or glass"

:nuts:
 
I guess I'm guilty of suffocatin' a lot of art in my day...just sayin'.
 
Aside from the semantics of "breathe" which is often jumped on, is it best to seal up the back of a canvas and not allow a canvas to have "access to circulating air"?
 
"Circulating air" carries circulating bugs and circulating dust. Neither should be allowed to "circulate" into the space between the canvas and the stretcher.

Bad things can happen if they do.
 
I had an interesting bit of information included with two Damien Hirst prints I'm framing. They are silk screen butterfly mandalas covered in glitter and diamond dust. The framer is warned to wear cotton gloves, eye protection and particle masks when handling them. Oh joy. Should I get out my hazmat suit?
 
You never know what could happen to you if you don't...


 
Oh, NO. I killed two Giclees' today . Smothered those liittle suckers until they quit "breathing".
 
Dear So and So's (and yes, I really sent it)

I apologize in advance if I sound harsh.

Please refer to this document:
http://www.gsa.gov/graphics/pbs/GSA_FineArts_1_Paintings.pdf

In a nutshell, by its definition is "This set of recommendations for the cyclic maintenance of paintings and murals was prepared as
part of the professional services contract for art conservation."

If you look at the paragraph just prior to section 1.6, you'll find the following "Fome-Cor is a white backing material (one-quarter inch thick), which should be attached to the back of all paintings on stretchers not otherwise covered. This is for dust and puncture protection. The back of the canvas does not need to “breathe”."

This myth has been dubuned and disproved for ages..and custom framers are well aware of it. Stating such on your printed instructions to framers ruins the credibility of your knowledge of the materials you are selling.

You have a lovely, talented artist. People will buy (and subsequently frame) more of your artwork if they are not disproved at the retail counter by the myth of proper handling.

Thanks for your time.

(And yes, I realize they're citing foam-core when most of us wouldn't use that in a preservation setting for backing...but because it's a canvas print, I just let it fly.)
 
The only reason I could think of that a giclee would need to breath has nothing to do with the canvas. It has to do with whether or not the inks used need some time to fully cure. And if they do, then the piece should not be sold till that has happened so that it can be properly framed with no worries about out gassing.
 
The good thing about Giclees (Gik-lees) is that they are clones and the dna is still available if you should happen to "snuff" one out.
 
As AnneL says, by the time an inkjet print on canvas reaches a customer, it should have been top coated or laminated rendering the "it has to dry argument" moot.
 
Worth a giggle!

Problem is; when you get a customer in the store, with these clear instructions....try to convince them otherwise....they will not believe you (unless they are a longtime customer).
You are 'just' the framer; whaddoyouknowaboutit????
 
YEp..... anyone have some kind of Literature we can print out....
With like actual facts stated?? :popc:
 
Depends on which kind Jeni....chips on a shoulder? Nah....didn't think so.

I'd say giggles...but in this case it is just one giggle because of anticipation of customer's glare when they think you don't know what you're talking about
 
Ylva said:
Depends on which kind Jeni....chips on a shoulder? Nah....didn't think so.

I'd say giggles...but in this case it is just one giggle because of anticipation of customer's glare when they think you don't know what you're talking about
Click to expand...

Nope just the boring potato variety......I actually used to work for Frito Lay years ago......it was a very fun job, but I heard "You can't just have one" everywhere I went........along with another line that was much worse :icon19:

but yeah....I get you. It's never fun to have to educate the customer who was mis-informed by some (fill in the blank) that in their minds should know better. Often, I think it's just a case of they heard it from them first, so that must be right..........Right? :thumbsup:
 
I just wanted to give you an inspiring success story about convincing a customer that I am right and the gallery who sold the piece is wrong. Some of you saw and helped me on a thread I started a while back about the right way to mount a giclee on canvas (thank you all BTW). After working on the customer for months and explaining that I got confirmation from several other very experienced framers and explaining that my only interest was doing the right thing for the art, the customer believed my sincerity about what to do, followed my logic and not so much the gallery's and decided to go with my recommendation. I think that the extra effort that I put into making sure that it was done right is what paid off.
 
stretched giclee

I've been trying to suffocate canvases for some time now.

Take it one further and reference a conservation site or museum. The modern museum is leaning toward plexi or glass on all stretched canvases I believe. If it's good enough for the Met it's good enough for me.

If they don't know better than the, "breathing" thing they may also not coat the giclee or know about the potential for out gassing. Some local shops near me don't know any better.
 
Something has just struck me. :icon9:

If canvas prints need to go under glass (nothing wrong with that), why not print them on paper in the first place?


jus' wondering. :D
 
prospero said:
Something has just struck me. :icon9:

If canvas prints need to go under glass (nothing wrong with that), why not print them on paper in the first place?


jus' wondering. :D
Click to expand...

If the scan of the original is good enough, the canvas weave shows in the print
anyhow.:thumbsup:
 
prospero said:
Something has just struck me. :icon9:

If canvas prints need to go under glass (nothing wrong with that), why not print them on paper in the first place?
Click to expand...

Optically coated glass is nearly invisible in proper lighting, so all of the canvas surface texture would show almost as well as if the glass were not there.

Let us not confuse the durability of a painted canvas with an inked canvas. Of course an oil painting on canvas is inherently more durable than a watercolor. An acrylic painting on canvas is somewhat less durable than oil paint. When considering the plethora of environmental hazards, an inkjet (giclee) print is about as durable as the same ink would be on good paper. Also, an oil painting can be cleaned, repaired and revarnished, but paperborne art does not share that advantage.

Still, all artworks benefit from a closed frame with glazing and solid backing in the same ways. The main difference is that without covering, and with exposure to environmental hazards, the paper would suffer faster and more drastically than the canvas.
 
mik said:

...
" Framing your Art

Consult with your local gallery or framing professional. They are trained to assist you in further enhancing your art with a framing solution that meets your personal decorating needs."
Click to expand...

I'm surprised with so many posts no one has commented that even though they were misinformed about a canvas "needing to breathe", they have cast a good light on "framing professionals".

I for one appreciate their referral.

:thumbsup:
 
Dave said:
I'm surprised with so many posts no one has commented that even though they were misinformed about a canvas "needing to breathe", they have cast a good light on "framing professionals".

I for one appreciate their referral.

:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

This is true............good point Dave.
 
That may be so, but as soon as you try to explain why the whole "breathing" argument is wrong, the customer has to start trying to figure out where her "loyalty" lies- with your expert advice, or the artist's. Our goal is to make the customer comfortable with the process of choosing custom framing, so this is where diplomacy becomes paramount.
:cool: Rick
 
Jim Miller said:
Optically coated glass is nearly invisible in proper lighting, so all of the canvas surface texture would show almost as well as if the glass were not there.

Let us not confuse the durability of a painted canvas with an inked canvas. Of course an oil painting on canvas is inherently more durable than a watercolor. An acrylic painting on canvas is somewhat less durable than oil paint. When considering the plethora of environmental hazards, an inkjet (giclee) print is about as durable as the same ink would be on good paper. Also, an oil painting can be cleaned, repaired and revarnished, but paperborne art does not share that advantage.

Still, all artworks benefit from a closed frame with glazing and solid backing in the same ways. The main difference is that without covering, and with exposure to environmental hazards, the paper would suffer faster and more drastically than the canvas.
Click to expand...


yes but no but yes...

We are talking about a glazed frame. I wasn't suggesting framing a paper print without glass.

The point I was struggling toward was that why print on canvas - protect with varnish or whatever and then put glass on the top?

Another thing. If the print is taken from an oil or arcylic, the original may not have been painted on canvas. Or if may have been painted on a completely different grade of canvas to the stuff used to print on. In this case, having a canvas texture in the print is rather bogus. The painting may have been done in heavy impasto which obscured the canvas texture.

As far as I can see, the only advantage of printing on canvas is that the print can be mounted on stretchers, varnished and framed without glass. And if it's going under glass, why have all the extra complication of trying to swallow the depth of the stretchers?

So why not print on smooth paper which would introduce minimal extra artefacts into the reproduction?
 
Rick Granick said:
That may be so, but as soon as you try to explain why the whole "breathing" argument is wrong, the customer has to start trying to figure out where her "loyalty" lies- with your expert advice, or the artist's. Our goal is to make the customer comfortable with the process of choosing custom framing, so this is where diplomacy becomes paramount.
:cool: Rick
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly. It seems that in a customer's eyes framers always know the least about framing. It's always the artist, the interior decorator, the mother-in-law or the friend with a good eye who knows best, not the professional framer who does it every day.
 
I must admit to flinching a wee bit whenever a customer presents me with "framing instructions" from an artist. But I have found that if I read it quickly and then say, "At least this artist knows what he is talking about," or conversely, "This artist is completely misinformed about framing, but don't worry, I know what to do!" the customer seems reassured and I get few arguments anymore.
 
My theory that I tell my customers is that the artist is really good at creating art and not so much when it comes to matting and framing and that's why you come to me so the art is protected and presented in the best way possible.

I remind them that most artists usually just put a mat or a frame on something for display purposes or to protect it till the customer can get it to the frame shop.

We each have our areas of expertise.
 
Yes, or one might say, "That used to be considered the standard approach but, because we keep attuned to the ever-improving state of the art, we now know that conservators have found this new technique better for preserving the art." That way you aren't presenting yourself in an adversary position to the artist, but rather as a professional in your own right, whose primary interest is in preserving the customer's art.
:cool: Rick
 
prospero said:
yes but no but yes...
As far as I can see, the only advantage of printing on canvas is that the print can be mounted on stretchers, varnished and framed without glass.
Click to expand...

I apologize for overstating (above) such a simple point: Ink on canvas needs glazing for the same reason ink on paper does. If varnish were a good answer for ink images, paper would be varnished.

My theory is that giclee makers promote framing without glazing because (A) that makes it look something like a painting, which is a false perception; and (B) some of the retail price and profit transfers from the framer to the printer.
 
Everyone and their grandma is mis- informed about this.

I can't talk anyone for the life of their art to add glass to a canvass.

It comes down to price more than anything.

Its like trying to talk someone into believing you are the same price as a 50% off sale. They just don't want to hear it.

Comes down to deeper frame/ spacer and glass added to the cost of stretching/ a frame already. o well. not my art.
 
I can sell some people on glazing for paintings by letting them look at their art through an 8x magnifying glass. The evaporation cones are plain. When I tell them that the dust that goes into those craters can't even be removed by a conservator, it is harder to refuse it.
 
The concept of glazing oil paintings/canvas prints seems to be almost unknown practice this side of the Atlantic.

I understand all the advantages. Keeping the art clean, etc. But I have to say that, to my mind this is grossly outweighed by the disadvantages.

A lot of people buy canvas art for no better reason than you don't have to have glass.

It's not just a matter of putting a piece of glass in. The frame has to be engineered so that spacers can be used. Also the frame has to be deep so that it can swallow the extra depth of glass/spacers. And if a back is to be fitted, the depth of the stretcher bars. If the bars are the 40mm deep type, that means a 50mm deep rebate. All this costs extra. That's before you start talking about AR glass and such....

A biggish canvas framed with glass = a massively heavy frame. I do a lot of frames for a particular artist. Some for originals, some for canvas prints. The typical ones are around 40x30". They are usually on deep stretchers. The finished frames = art are fairly hefty articles. With glass they would be very unwieldy. This guy takes carloads of his work all over the country to exhibitions. If all the frames had glass in, this would be a major undertaking. I could guarantee at least one would get broken. Plus I would have to beef up the frames in the first place which would make them at least twice the price.

As it happens, I have just completed a framed oil where the customer actually asked for it to be glazed. They wanted a wide , black frame. I had to take a 3" scoop and extend it 3/4" backwards. The result doesn't look too bad but it's still a fair old lump of a frame. That was only a 20x30". It was also on 3/4" stretchers. On deep bars it would have looked even chunkier. :icon11:

So given all that, my philosophy will ever be - if it's on canvas, let the air get at it.




I'll get me coat >>>>>> :help:
 
So what? You can make the same type of arguments for any type of artwork.

If I use mats then the frame has to be bigger, and that's more expensive on top of the extra cost of the mats.

If I put a fillet in the mat then I need a deeper frame to accomodate the fillet.

If I stretch a cross stitch properly instead of gluing it down, the I have to use a deeper frame.

And on and on...

As usual there's still no good evidence that properly spaced glazing will cause harm, and plenty of evidence that leaving the painting exposed will cause harm.
 
Best way to get the glass/plex in there is between a liner and frame. No extra engineering involved.
 
FramerDave said:
You can make the same type of arguments for any type of artwork.
Click to expand...
David makes a good point. Perhaps what it comes down to is that you discourage some features as disadvantages, which others encourage as better framing.

prospero said:
I understand all the advantages. Keeping the art clean, etc. But I have to say that, to my mind this is grossly outweighed by the disadvantages...So given all that, my philosophy will ever be - if it's on canvas, let the air get at it.
Click to expand...

To me, that seems to say, "-if it's on canvas, protection doesn't matter as much as light weight and low cost, so save your money."

Admittedly, price is the most important consideration for some customers, and a convenient sale is the most important consideration for some framers. But when protecting the artwork matters, then glazing is a feature that is valuable well beyond its cost and inconvenience.
 
prospero said:
So that comes back to my original point:

If if going to be glazed, why print on canvas an mount on stretchers?

Print on paper and mount it to a board. ;)
Click to expand...

If a customer brings us a canvas, we don't exactly have that choice, do we?
 
Because the printer/publisher doesn't care about how it's framed or the person that will frame it.

Most things on 'canvas' from the big name UK limited edition print publishers actually are on board - 'canvas' bonded to board (not very nice board either) You don't have to buy them framed but if you do there'll be no glass. They're not framers, they don't give one about how it's framed, they just want to shift it.

Photographers/other publishers sell a lot of printed stuff on 'canvas' stretched across a frame to be displayed just as it is as far as they're concerned - but usually 'gallery wrapped' - and some of the big name publishers also sell stuff that way.

But the customer may want to add a frame, so s/he comes to you and then the ball's in your court and it's up to you what you do with it.

Catch it on the volley and give it some top spin!
 
prospero said:
If if going to be glazed, why print on canvas an mount on stretchers?

Print on paper and mount it to a board. ;)
Click to expand...

Because artists believe the word Giclee means canvas. They believe if it is on paper it is not a Giclee so they print on canvas because the term Giclee indicates some sort of value.

We have also bounced around from print to acrylic to oil in this thread and many of the responses have addressed the plethora of media being discussed in the randomness of the conversation.

The average artist also believes that the backside of the canvas needs to breath as well. Having spent some years in high end restoration I have seen the damage to both the front and backside of canvas caused by breathing. Things of value deserve protection and run of the mill carp not so much. If the artist admits the print on canvas is run of the mill carp why not just include instructions to thumbtack it to the wall.

It is very rare that I suggest glazing of canvas. Just don't see much art that is that important. Giclee prints on canvas are run of the mill for the most part and have been printed that way to give them a more important look. Glazing makes them look like paper prints.

So in conclusion you are both right and wrong all at the same time. Isn't framing fun. :icon9:
 
prospero said:
... why print on canvas an mount on stretchers?
Click to expand...

Surface texture is the reason artists want to print on canvas and, as Jeff noted, some folks perceive added value in having that texture.

Dry mounting the canvas to a board using low-temperature adhesive/short dwell time makes more sense than stretching, so the framing would be very much like framing a paper print, anyway.

David is right again: We frame what the customers bring us.
 
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