It´s Not Just Us Americans Being Affected By The Chinese

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Rob Markoff

Rob Markoff

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Mar 8, 1999
Posts
5,183
Loc
San Diego, CA USA
I´m touring Italy.

I spent some time in Murano where they are famous for their glasswork. There are many factories on the island (having been moved from Venice to protect the island from fires). Many of them have showrooms.

While the large, custom pieces are not being knocked off in China, there are a series of shops that are having "Murano" style glass copied in China and are selling it for much less than the true Italian-made shops are selling the real thing for. To an uneducated eye, it looks pretty good and lots of tourists are buying it.

So the true Murano shops are putting signs up saying "not made in China" and have formed an association and have produced a sticker to label the genuine article.

I discussed this phenomenon with several of the gallery owners who said that for the lower end shops, this is indeed a problem, but for the shops that accept commissions for custom work, and for the higher end galleries with true art pieces, this has not become a problem as the Chinese have not yet mastered the finer techniques.

So fellow framers, we are not alone in our difficulties with inexpensive goods being produced in China and sold in the "lower end" shops.

I also toured several "local" frame shops (as I find them) and must say that most American shops seem light years ahead of the technology I have seen. Most owners laugh when I tell them about CMC´s. They pick up a mat knife, point to their head and say "this is my computer."
 
Buona sera, Rob-I am too envious, but not so much for Venice

Your point is well taken and is symtomatic of two issues: The first being craftsmanship, the other being marketplace

Make no mistake, there are centuries old glass blowers that pass that knowledge on to generation after generation. How many of us had a grandfather in the trade? A Father? Or want our kids to do this?

The second is marketplace. We would stumble upon a frameshop on occassion (must admit, we didn't go out looking for any) ahnd they tended to be extremely small with one worker and an owner-type person (I'm guessing maybe mamma) supervising, very few small selections and walls covered with elegant gold leaf mistakes (?) waiting that "golden opportunity" when that might fit something. Do you think we will ever see a store like yours or mine?

Or a chain of Michaelino's?

I left a message last week (forgotten you were on your daughter's graduation trip) about our good friend. Who will follow first, you or I?

Your point is well taken and I guess my pragmatic sense is that tyhe marketplace will determine these answers
 
Bob, I'm not talking to Rob, he left me behind... I have been known to schlep bags before..... :D

We experienced the same in Lisboa, Cadiz, Sevilla and Tormilino. There was on shop in Cadiz that the two workers were Chek and Ukrainian. Neither could really talk to each other.... except through a pidgeon English.... the only language that they and the owner had in common. ...... [The owner wanted to hire me to teach them English.... as well as frame..(he knew of me and my work through friends and website).... such a temptation.]

The reasoning of many in the industry is that they are only catering to the select few. If we only address 8% of our population, they address less, even though most school kids are lead through fabulous museums.

Which causes another belief held by several; Because they are toured through the museums, they grow up thinking that framing and art are only for the rich and museums, so the walls of the "middle class" remain empty. Or only sport the 42" plasma.
 
I wonder what would happen if the "high end shops" were to supliment their offerings with some much lower priced and "fake" imports.

Or what if some of the import only shops were to court some locals and incorperate the nicer pieces in with the knockoffs.

I could imagine that having some really positive results for both the shops owners and their customers.

Carry on.
 
What a great graduation present!

Rob,
If you're still wandering the canals of Venice, there is a master framer named Paolo Convilli located at Dorso Duro, 1043. He hand carves and leafs all his frames. Just beautiful. His workshop is located behind the Academia. He doesn't speak a word of English but we had a great visit with him. We happened by his workshop and he was working with the door open so we stopped to visit.

One of the best restaurants we found was Ristorante San Trovaso at Dorso Duro, 967. Very reasonable prices (especially for Venice and great food).

Have a great trip. Venice is one of my favorite cities....
 
china's crap will, absolutely, KILL the world economy!!!!!!

one of my reps was in last week said all amp's new stuff is china made, and that 3-4 other's he's aware of have switched over.... pay em $5/day for 15hrs/day for 7 day weeks (& NO overtime) and sell it to the round eyes foe CHEAP!!!! does anyone remember in the not so distant past when there were tariffs being used/enforced?????? sort of made ALL the players use the same level playing field-----what the heck happen with china???? tariff run out or the gov hasnt got enough guts to enforce them????? heck, if I had 100mill I'd run for prez and put a large damper on thier party & all the fat cats on hte take aiding/abetting them! donations anyone?????(rather larger ones, preferred)
 
An article in National Geographic on China pointed out that the coal miners are paid so poorly that they cannot afford coal to heat their own homes in the winter. After they get off their shift in the mine they scavenge in the waste piles for pieces of coal to heat and cook with. When there is a mining disaster here, and some lives are at risk or lost it is front page news. The Chinese lose over 5000 people annually to coal mining accidents.
It's hard to compete in an open economy with a country that has such callous disregard for human life.
 
It's not just goods, it's neighborhoods. When I moved to Bensonhurst back in 1993, it was largely Jewish and Italian. Somehow it's gone to 60% Chinese, with a vast majority of long-standing businesses going out of business and nail salons, chinese grocery stores, qui-gong parlors etc. taking their places. How? They have the entire extended family buy one house, everyone works and sleeps in shifts until they have a suitcase full of money and then they buy the house next door for cash. More extended family moves in, and in a very short amount of time, they own the whole block. I know this because I was displaced when my building was bought and I was told to move. I had a two year lease, so they gave me the equivalent of two months rent, plus my security deposit AND paid for the movers to get me out and into the new apartment which their real-estate cousin got for me.
 
Your observations on European framing market are correct. The explanation is Europe's political and economical fragmentation. While a framer from San Francisco is perfectly able not only to stay in touch but also order custom made frames and supplies from say American Choice and United, on the other coast of the continent, for modicum prices and low SH cost, this is far from true in Europe. Even within EU things did not get better and development is regional and so supplying tends to stay. For example, between my facility place in Romania and London is about same distance as in between my PA location and Bob Carter in Phoenix, Arizona. A frame that would be shipped by UPS from PA to Bob Carter would cost $25. For same distance and very same parcel, in Europe, UPS and DHL would charge 226 euros, that's 300 US dollars. Go figure!
Under the pressure of their obese bureaucracy, social assistance and assisted/protected industries system, free and fair competition is just a code word and prices are artificially inflated.
Domestic transportation is way cheaper than international (Italy and France are intl. subjects in this respect despite both being contingent and founding parts of the same European Union). That makes for reasonable transportation cost within every single country, but for little commerce between any single national market and the rest of Europe framers/suppliers. Those famous Italian and Spanish molding manufacturers live through exports to US not that much to countries within EU because European unified market is still a political rumor. When it comes to frames and framing, local framers and regional manufacturers are the key stone rule of business. Why be surprised that they are way behind American frame market? Many framers make their own frames which is just history in America. Some such framers are wonderful craftsmen, others are just pretending to be. Technical and technological knowledge are jealously kept within each frame-making family, their uniqueness and future depending on those secrets. Consequently their frames have a distinct(ive) local/regional look.
To make things worse, to extremely high taxation, phony pricing and competition, political and economical fragmentation (regionalism) there is also true that Europeans are not by far equally addicted to frames and framing like Americans are. In their mind good art and frames belong to museums, photos in albums and sentimental value items in rarely opened armoires if not straight up in the attic.

As of Chinese businesses, I am of the oppinion that China is making war to the entire world, but instead of sacrificing lives, cities and facilities they gladly sacrifice labor on a scale that can't be matched or countered, especially when westerners are fast to move their factories and technologies to China. When a quarter of global population country is underpaing and savagely exploiting its labor force no wonder that bottom line is super competitivity and every other country's economical subjugation. They beat us at how long their people can go starving and working without rebellion, and they have a long history of "success" in this field. Chinese immigrants in US proove that they keep their mentality, low self esteeme and endurance for at least one generation. Twenty people living in same room some place in Brooklyn is not unheard of. And if they can endure like that in New York, what can they suffer back home in Shanghay? And for how long?
Westerners came to a point where they are being desarmed and defeated by their ennemies self inflicted pains and sacrifices faster and safer than by using force against them. But this is a different topic and many American framers are too far to the left to readily accept this view as evident.
 
Whynot said:
As of Chinese businesses, I am of the oppinion that China is making war to the entire world, but instead of sacrificing lives, cities and facilities they gladly sacrifice labor on a scale that can't be matched or countered, especially when westerners are fast to move their factories and technologies to China.
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I think you hit the nail on the head. Very true and very scary.
 
Cornel- I consider myself pretty far "to the left" on a number of issues, but I find your characterization pretty darn accurate. Others on the G have described the situation in a similar way, particularly on the thread about tainted dog food.
I could never figure out why the right wing hated Clinton so vociferously. For a Democrat, he was quite pro-big-business. He supported NAFTA and GATT (remember Perot's warning about the "big sucking sound" of jobs fleeing the country?), and he facilitated a lot of
trade with China that has led us to the position we're in now that you described so well. Of course this is all encouraged and abetted by his Arkansas neighbor, Wal mart, and it's low-price-uber-alles indoctrination tactics.
I don't know what it's going to take to turn the tide now that a whole generation has grown up being taught this attitude.
:soapbox: Rick
 
Moulding Recall

How long is it going to be before someone finds lead(or something else) in the finish of some generic knock-off chinese moulding. Can you imagine CNN holding up a frame sample, telling people if they have this moulding in their house, they should remove it immediately and take it to their nearest frame shop for a refund, replacement, etc....
 
TownL7 said:
How long is it going to be before someone finds lead(or something else) in the finish of some generic knock-off chinese moulding. Can you imagine CNN holding up a frame sample, telling people if they have this moulding in their house, they should remove it immediately and take it to their nearest frame shop for a refund, replacement, etc....
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It may not be in the moulding. How about those $99 paintings that come in from China? Maybe there's lead in the paint.
 
TownL7 said:
How long is it going to be before someone finds lead(or something else) in the finish of some generic knock-off chinese moulding.
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And what makes you think the lead is only in the "generic knock-off". Get a lead detecting pen and start going through your wall. Bearing in mind that the lacquer top coat will mask a multitude of sin.....

And if you don't believe me... ask Ron about burning corner samples in his fireplace. Stinging eyes and massive headaches combined with that "stoned" disorientation are the hallmarks of lead smoke inhalation poisoning . . . outside of death. :icon11:

Could you imagine the DEQ and FDA freezing all containers of moulding coming out of china, say about September through Dec?
 
Hi Cornel-Count me one that always enjoys your posts. No polish, no varnish-just unbridled "the way it is" square between the eye balls

Years ago, I owned a company that produced very nice quality "Mexican Ready mades" under a "maquilladora" type of twin plant arrangement. All (or most) product was sent to Mexico in bond (bought is US with no duty), converted to a useable product, returned to US paying duty on value added only (very little duty)

The idea was, ready for this, to create jobs in Mexico to keep them from coming over here. This was when the Dems controlled the White House, Senate and House (and interest was double digit)

The point is that "cheap labor" will win this issue everytime and as long we pay a worker to install rear view mirrors $40/hr and have better medical benefits than any soldier, sailor or Marine, we shouldn't expect much difference

How come the only segment of our population that truly gets paid what we are worth is small business owners
 
Whynot said:
, in Europe, UPS and DHL would charge 226 euros, that's 300 US dollars.
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Rob.......the wholesale part of sales into the US of my brothers craft business in the West of Ireland has collapsed..........he has just reinvented this part of his business to more direct online sales in the US............he can ship direct to the US from the back end of no where in Ireland direct to the end customer for less than some of the US wholesalers (Asian imports) can sell to retailers and what the retailer can sell to their walk in customers............he just turned what could have been a perceived disadvantage into an advantage ...........and has retained his manufacturing numbers in Ireland...his shipping costs are nothing like Cornel has suggested.....

Cornel according to my price list from Interlink/DHL/Geopost that I’m looking at right now Romania to London is Euro €54.00 for a 30kg package...............and that is before any discount that is available is asked for..........perhaps you should find yourself a new shipping agent......if your packages are over 30kg and do not meet the DHL size requirments I suggest that you contact a company called Gefco......I can ship from Holland to Wicklow large cartons for about €85.00 to €100.00.........Europe is not the US and if you want to do business in there I would suggest that you try and apply an European approach to your methods.........I know of several Irish companies who operate in the US and Europe and Europe is by quite a bit a less expensive to run a business than the US

For the life of me other than you availing of the cheap labour you get in Romania what are you doing manufacturing in Europe.....why don’t you take your manufacturing to the US and play on that manufacturing stage!!!!.........or are you just cherrie picking the bits of business in the US and Europe that suits your business model.....

You are constantly negative about Europe but when it suits you for cheap labour you are happy to exploit the people of Romania .............I suspect that your wage rates in Romania could be as low if not lower than some Chinese people earn working for international business............

I know of one US company that payees it Chinese workers the same rate as their US/European workers and gives them all the same benefits..........and the most of the other US companies in that industrial sector follow suite .....
 
Dermot,

I wish you give me a hard proof of that price quote that you mentioned above. Some 30 days ago Romanian DHL and UPS (which apparently are independent branches) quoted 224 and 220 euros to me for 30 volumetric kilos parcel to be shipped from Bucharest to London. I made those price inquiries myself, no agent involved. I'll check again on their terms this week and report back to you if anything changed in their response.

Regardless of my direct experience with Romanian UPS and DHL, from what I discussed with a couple of UK professional framers and frame makers I gathered that Italian and Spanish moldings are rara avis in their market; it's been rumored that Adisha had recently opened a distributorship somewhere in Ireland. I expressly asked about Italian and Spanish molding makers being known and active in UK's frame market because their presence would tell me there are ways to ship and money to be made in that market. What I learned from those gentlemen is far from your rosy views on European commerce and its frame market perspectives. European frame market is very different from what's going on in America, where I've seen framing shops almost everywhere, even in small villages.

Dermot, you've been in framing business for yourself down there in Ireland (which is one of the first three richest and most prosperous UE countries today). Please answer my curiosity and tell me, did you ever order custom made frames with French, Italian or Spanish frame makers? Why not? What famous Italian and Spanish moldings did you carry, how did you get them in your shop and for how much? I must admit that this is not the first time EU looks differently to me, when seen from the East, than it does to you, when contemplating it from the opposite side. I simply don't recognize and don’t share your enthusiasm for European frame market, that's for sure. I wish you were right and me wrong because being wrong leaves hopes for the better.

As of Romanian relatively inexpensive labor force you are right. There is an economic reality, a distance that makes one country's labor more expensive than other's. Romania is in that shape and stage that makes its labor cost attractive to many more than Cornel alone. Only for communist/socialist minded people that equates with exploitation. Paying German salaries to Romanians would be equally wrong and disastrous as working Germans for Romanian wages. German products are still more competitive than Romanians' despite being made with much more expensive labor. Larger salaries are nonsense and even suicidal if not tied to effective productivity. It is an historic and economic context that explains Eastern-Europeans lower productivity. This reality can't be fixed overnight by trade unions, political parties or heart bleeding capitalists paying unreasonably high salaries (the higher the salary, the more expensive your product is, the less you sell, if productivity stays the same or grows slower than salaries). Beyond this reality everything else is voudou-economics, socialist brain washing or pious wishful thinking.
Excellent quality handcrafted and hand finished custom frames are intensive labor consuming products. Those products can't anymore be produced in W. Europe and N. America without compromising quality or pricing yourself out of the market. My American and UK colleagues are the first to confirm those words. Just ask them. When dedicated to that quality product you have but few choices, none of them resembling the profit/labor exploitation picture that you painted above.
 
Cornel .....DPD which is GEOPOST who also own DHL they are all the same group but different pricing systems ........DPD (who are very good) will do shipment 0.5kg to 30kg to the UK from €27 to €154 that is list and before volume discount.

http://www.cargus.ro/tarif_ext.php scroll down the page for DPD..........it is DPD that I actually use for my shipments from Holland and Denmark

I will address your other questions another day............just remember that Ireland is an island on the outer edge of Europe to the West just as Romania is on the outer edge of Europe to the East.........I suspect that Romania is little different today to what Ireland was 15 to 20 years ago.............of course there is hope of improvement and it will happen...........but Cornel you must embrace the EU a little more positively ...........there is much more right with the EU than there is wrong.....
 
Dermot. said:
...there is much more right with the EU than there is wrong.....
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There may be, Dermot, but I don't see it yet in my pocket, and short of doing savant business engineering in order to avoid existing obstacles, a frame maker, say from Italy, can't sell custom made picture frames to Berlin, London and Oslo the way things so naturally and inexpensively happen in US.
In fact EU's future concerns me very much because with its aged population, universal medical assistance and generous welfare system being abused by endless waves of legal and illegal emigrants, with its workers being paid for only 32-35 working hours/week (see Netherland and France) and two months vacations per year, with 85% of its youth dreaming for well paid jobs in local governments because having your own business is so much trouble and so little rewarding, with its 25 official languages (including ancient Irish which is largely ignored by the Irish people itself), bushy and corrupt bureaucracy, with way too powerful and influent socialist parties, with foreign competition being dodged behind high custom taxes or countered with cheap labor force of its own, obtained by enlarging its borders over more and more exotic, poor and populous countries, etc, etc, I can't be optimistically watching at this political construction.

Thanks for the link, hope this will work unlike local DHL and UPS. Wish I can order and pay in America for European pick ups and deliveries by UPS, but those are different entities and they wont interfere.
 
Well Dermot, sadly enough, I AM RIGHT AGAIN in this ...European matter. UK is in zone 1 and 30kg parcel shipped from Bucharest to UK is going to cost 224 Euros plus VTA which is 19% in my case. Using your carrier, Cargus, is even more expensive than UPS and DHL. So, what do you think of Europe's united market?

Let's hear from Bob Carter again.
How would you like, Bob, to get a frame sent from New York to Phoenix, AZ, packed in a 44 x 31 x 8 inch corrugatee cardboard box (that equates a maximum admissible weigh of 30 volumetric kilos) an be paying for it 224 Euros + 19% AVT in shipping alone? That is some 360 dollars, right? Are you happier with paying only 154 euros ($208) for same parcel and distance, if Dermot's prices were also true? At this shipping cost wouldn't you too, Bob, turn into a modest, provincial local framer buying your stuff from local suppliers only? And how good, proud and optimistically would you feel about your country’s future, a country where it appears to be 70% cheaper to ship a crate from California to Virginia than to ship same crate the other way around? Wouldn't your kids be tempted to take a well paid job with AZ government rather than take on their father's well established business?
 
Cornel you are not right again......VAT (VTA) is an off set tax..........if you are running a legitimate commercial business in Romania you would be registered for VAT and be off setting it.............VAT in the real world of business is just a paper transaction and has nothing to do with the cost of running a business...........I’m not sure what sort of business you have in Romania.........but if you don’t know about the VAT regulations I suspect your business leaves a lot to be desired...............also as shipping to the UK would be export from Romania you do not have to apply the VAT to these shipments ..............for your information VAT is 21% in Ireland and as you have acknowledged we run a very successful economy.................VAT..........has little or no impact on doing business in Europe on a business to business bases which is how you conduct your business..........

If you look at the DPD rates 30kg to London Zone 1 is €154.00 and for the academic exercise plus VAT at 19% is €183.26..............I think Cornel you are slanting this discussion to suit yourself rather than looking at the reality of the numbers..............or do you have some sort of dodgy business in Romania....

I don’t like to have my time wasted particularly when I’m trying to help you better understand how to do business in the EU (granted by my own choice)............business consultant rates for your information in Ireland run at over €200.00 and hour your are getting some very solid advice on a subject you appear to have great difficulty with for nothing please stop playing games with me it is unbecoming of you.......

I would also point out that all business in Europe have to contend with the various shipping charges around Europe............so the playing field is evenly balanced on these charges.............making comparisons to the US is an interesting academic exercise but bears no reality to how business is done in Europe...........

I have seen this sort of stuff talked about by Americans trying to do business in Europe many times in the past.............it simply boils down to the fact that they don’t want to face reality and do business in the way business is conducted in Europe..............the sooner you wake up and accept that business is conducted somewhat differently in Europe than the US the sooner you will have a chance of success in Europe................though from what you have posted on this thread and others in the past ...................I’m beginning to suspect that your only interest in Europe is in exploiting cheap wages in Romania ...............I don’t buy your debate about quality and craftsmanship in fact I think that debate by you is a crock of s*it.....
 
Dermot,

we accaparated this thread. On top of it you lost your temper. I did not collapse over the VAT part of the price but over its principal. After doing business in America I hardly can adjust and pay 4 to 8 times more for same service. Simple like that.

Shipping 44 x 31 x 8 inch size parcel size from PA to San Francisco by UPS ground would cot today exactlly 46.45 US Dollars which is 34.4 Euros. Compare 34.4 Euros (in United States of America) to 154 or 226 Euros (in United States of Europe) for a smaller distance.
We see here larger transportation cost by a factor of 4.5 - 6.7 times in EU than USA which doesn't make for sound framing business and explains European frame market. That's all I wanted to say in the first place and I believe I made my point clearer now.
 
OK whatever it is clear that you do not understand how business is done in Europe and have no interest in learning.........Europe is not the US........and making comparisons is nothing but an academic exercise....

BTW I have not lost my temper ..............I just hate bull s*it...........which when you describe Europe is all you are spouting.............

You are so typical of some business people or supposed business people who come to Europe.........you want all the benefits like cheap labour in Romania and grants but you don’t want to become totally inclusive in all the other aspects of doing business in Europe........again I strongly suspect that your only interest in doing business in Europe is the cheap labour costs in Romania.........I wont post what is the likely hourly rates you pay your workers in Romania..........in comparison China’s labour pay rates would look very generous ...............and yes I do have access to typical pay rates in both countries .............and have some friends who are doing business in Romania ........

And BTW the shipping cost within the same country for next day delivery for the package you described would be €29.85 max before any discounts which can be very substantial .....trans boundary shipping does cost more but can be greatly reduced if you have a registered for VAT business and some reasonable volume
 
Dermot. said:
BTW I have not lost my temper ..............I just hate bull s*it...........which when you describe Europe is all you are spouting........
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I think it's time to calm down a bit. I would like to just ask publically rather than privatly that if Dermot can't control himself that an admin assist. Stevie Wonder can see that this is going well beyond a debate. I don't think this is at all the spirit to which this thread was started and if this is a topic that needs to be addressed perhaps another thread, warped, or private debate would be best.
 
Talk about Frankenthread-

Remind me not to post when I am on VACATION!

OK, here's my VAT marketing/selling observation-

As some of you may know, if a foreigner (US) makes purchases exceeding a certain threshold from a single store in a single day (Approx 150 euros), they can file at the airport for a tax (VAT) refund. Shipments made from EU countries to the US that meet the threshold are not required to charge the tax.

So, in SOME of the higher end galleries, the sellers are saying that since most of the people who purchase what they are selling are foreigners and will have the merchandise shipped, the prices posted do not include VAT. Others use the VAT refund as a selling point saying that if the item is purchased, the VAT will be deducted from the price and the price paid will be lower than the posted price.

I am not sure what the "law" is (as to whether the posted price needs to include VAT or not), but I suspect that this is giving the galleries some "wiggle room" in the pricing so that if they come down in price, all they are doing is reducing the price within the VAT limits and they will end up with the NET price they wanted in the first place.

Others also play the "shipping" game by saying that they will "include" the shipping or will "throw it in." So, the marked price has obviously been marked up so they can afford what Cornel has already indicated is a considerable expense.

Hopefully, fellow grumblers you will not frankenthread this observation into a debate of right and wrong-, my purpose in posting is to invite discussion re: the international psychology of pricing/selling, especially when it comes to higher end merchandise.

Case in point- when we sell large, framed mirrors, they are expensive. I cannot imagine that after closing a sale we then have to "sell" delivery and installation as an "add on" and discuss it as a separate transaction. And no, we don't give it away, but calculate it into the selling price and when we give the customer the price, delivery and installation is included. And, when they go to pay for it and whip out their American Express card, we accept the card with a smile. Point is they want to know three things-, what is it going to look like, how much will it cost, how/when am I going to receive it?

So it was with us in Murano as we commissioned a piece to be fabricated for our home. And yes, "if we made the decision today" instead of reconfirming by e-mail after we returned to the states, the price was lower (for an immediate decision/contract.) And shipping (which will take 5-6 large boxes) is included in the price paid.

Personally, I preferred knowing that the price I paid was a confirmed, bottom line price and that I was/would not be at the mercy of the factory for some unknown shipping charges to be added to an already expensive purchase.

And yes, I whipped out my American Express card which they accepted with a smile.

Sidebar- This entire trip (First Class airfare for three from San Diego-Chicago-Business Class Dublin-Madrid-Rome, Three nights each (two rooms) in Rome, Florence, Venice, Barcelona, (at Starwood's Luxury Collection) and Airfare (Business Class) from Barcelona to Madrid, to New York, (Overnight in a hotel in New York (two rooms)) and then First Class NY-San Diego) was all done on points earned from using credit cards. :)
 
Rob my discussion with Cornel was about VAT in a business to business transaction (B2B) within the EU as this is the area of business he operates in............as far as I’m aware Cornel is not selling to consumers unless his situation has changed recently...............

I’m sorry that the thread went off track but what Cornel was saying was just not factual....

The requirements for VAT for consumer sales as distinct from B2B transactions as are quite different within the EU............your take on VAT for consumer non residents of the EU are for the most part correct.............but your reference to wriggle room is a bit off as the revenue agencies in Europe have very extensive powers and it would be a very silly business person that would mess around with their VAT requirements......I did post earlier about my brothers business and the VAT back system is one he would use for his business on shipments to non EU countries...

In Europe for “consumer” sales the displayed price must include all taxes (VAT) though shipping would generally be an additional separate charge .......unlike most of the US where sales tax in general is additional to the displayed price

This is the link to the Irish Revenue on this VAT back system http://www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/leaflets/vatexp.htm this would be the common law across the EU...........

If Jay and others agree and think it is OK for inaccurate and erroneous information to be posted on this site without it been challenged ................then I guess that the purpose of this site is becoming very irrelevant and redundant ..............or perhaps Jay thinks it is OK to have wrong information on this site......is that what you are saying Jay!!!

I will repeat what I have said a few times in the past that as far as I’m aware I have never posted anything on this site that was inaccurate and that cannot be validated from some other source..............I tend to be by training and nature a very factual type of person ...........

PS Rob...........did you get to see much of Dublin!!!
 
Dermot. said:
If Jay and others agree and think it is OK for inaccurate and erroneous information to be posted on this site without it been challenged ................then I guess that the purpose of this site is becoming very irrelevant and redundant ..............or perhaps Jay thinks it is OK to have wrong information on this site......is that what you are saying Jay!!!
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Is that a real question?

If so I don't care if you challenge everything written here. There just is no reason to be a complete jerk. It's happened before and appears to be happening again. Genuine passion is great but outright rudeness isn't desired. This is just my opinion and might not be sharred by another soul.
 
Agree or not, just remember that we're all on the "same team" here. There's no reason for any of us to get abusive or to make it a personal attack. When things degrade to that level, it's all people tend to see; diluting any facts you may be trying to present.

Thanks in advance for consideration and respect of your peers.

Mike
co-moderator
 
Quick note about Rob's sidebar

Several years back Rob convinced me to take advantage of these credit card opportunities, While I tip my hat to the Master, we have done quite well, also

It requires some discipline to gets those bills paid promptly, but the miles do pile up. I have only had one or two vendors that didn't accept my card and they don't get our business when there is an alternative. Two actually have offered generous pre-pay cash discounts to offset the card benefit

Thanks, Rob

Did you know that Awardsplanner.com appears to ceasing operations? They no longer accept new clients. Do you have another facilitator?
 
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