is this at all possible...

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Justin Alvarez

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
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152
Loc
Alberta, CANADA
Hey guys,

Ok so this is theoretical(Sp?) But I was wondering...If you have a floater frame cut and then you order a capping frame as well but the capping frame is from a completely different company And you recieve them and they don't fit...Is it possible to enlarge the rabbit so that the frame does fit over top? Or would this have a negative effect on the frame or art? Just curious....Any ideas???

Thanks!!
 
I guess you're saying the inside edge of the floater shows inside the lip of the cap frame. Is that the problem?

Planing out a rabbet is a common practice when a stretched canvas needs to be keyed-out, to re-tension and get rid of the sagging that may occur over time.

That is, the stretcher bars' perimeter size increases by the keying-out, so the assembly no longer fits the frame. So, the rabbet is planed in order to make the existing frame fit the larger canvas.

It won't hurt the art, but it is a lot of work. It's easier to do it before the frame is assembled, too. It might be better to buy another floater or another frame, so you have two elements that go together more like you want.
 
Hey Jim,

Actually what I am thinking is (well its theoretical right now) but I am worried that when my two different frames arrive they will not fit together as they should. The possible downfall of ordering from two separate wholesalers. But If they do not fit, cutting out the rabbet in the upper most frame so that it slids smoothly in place...Reason being, glass is going to go between the two. I hope that this clarifies that.

Thanks again!!

Justin
 
Justin,

This is a typical museum presentation, but the two mouldings are usually not only made specifically to go together, but the cutting is done by making one complete frame first and then fitting the other one to it. The only way I can see it happening by ordering chop from two different suppliers is if the cap frame has a wider rabbet than the floater face, and you order it with enough allowance to fit. For instance, if the floater frame has a 3/8" face you would need to find a cap moulding with at least a 7/16" wide rabbet and order the cap moulding with a 1/16" allowance against the outside dimension of the floater frame. If left entirely to chance it's extremely unlikely it will work out.

As for cutting the rabbet out to fit, that is certainly entirely possible. You will need a table saw, rabbet plane or whittling knife and plenty of patience. If you don't have woodworking skills it is probably impractical - you'd be better off paying the price to get the right thing in the first place.
 
If the top frame is too big, you can always sand the mitres a little at a time to get it down to the right size.

If the top frame is just a little too small, you can also sand a little off the outside of the inner frame. Might be easier than planing out the rabbet.
 
If it's not a huge difference, could you plane the outside of the floater? That would be hidden anyway, right? It might be easier.
 
I use a handydandy dremel tool to open up a rabbet a bit.
Obviously it works better on softer woods. I see nothing wrong with doing this.
If the frame is too big, just cut it down to fit.
I love sneaking glass in this way. It makes for a nice, solid presentation.
 
Think like a shadowbox...

Justin, I've done these in a few different ways. Usually we just attach the top frame to the floater with screws from the back of the floater. If they are of slightly different widths, you can let the top frame extend over the floater a bit if needed and if the inside surfaces of the two don't line up, fill with foam core, matboard, or whatever. Then use matboard or wood as you would use spacers in a shadowbox to support the glass.
 
Thanks for all the help!!! I love the grumble because you can get 3000+ different techniques and no one is afraid to share....(at least to professional framers ;) for that matter)
 
Justin,
If I'm reading this properly you haven't ordered the frames yet, am I correct? If this is the case then make your order as such. Order your floater frame based on the calculated outside size of the frame and order your cap frame with a standard allowance. if they don't fit then your supplier messed up and should replace the incorrectly sized frame for free. If you don't have the ability to chop frames yourself I highly doubt that you will have the proper tools to rabbit out the rabbit. If you do have a table saw it would take all of 2 minutes to resize the rabbit though.
 
Basically you're talking about a stacked frame .....

Justin,

Whether you are using 2 or 3 frames, a combination of fillet, liner, and frame, or different types of frames, you are doing a basic stacked frame combination. I could tell you what NOT to do as I do alot of these and have made so many dumb mistakes that a book is in there somewhere!!

I am presently working on a frame for a large original oil that consists of a gold fillet (Wall Mldg), fit into a 2" linen liner, (Cash Mldg), and that is fit into a large Roma Gianni frame. The fillet is the easy part as I can order it a few inches longer and trim to fit. The black linen liner has to fit the original oil so it has to be the same dimensions. The Roma frame has to fit around the outside of the liner so it has to be the same size as the outside dimensions of the liner.

DON'T depend on the widths of mouldings that the mfr's or distr's put into the information for your POS program!! Most likely they are measuring from a different point than you will want to measure. (That's a nice way of saying that most of these guys don't know how to measure a moulding!)

Let's say that you are going to frame 16x20 canvas using my materials above. I would order the fillet 17x21 and trim it to fit the liner. I would order the liner to fit a 16x20 canvas so that would be the opening of the liner. Now, the liner is a 2" liner but part of that measurement is rabbet and that part is already accounted for in the canvas measurement, so you need to measure the back of the liner from the outside edge to the inside of the rabbet. It may measure 1 3/4" instead of the 2" that the liner actually is. THAT is what you must add to the opening size to order your Roma frame. So, instead of a 20x24 frame opening, you will need a 19 1/2x23 1/2 opening frame. And then you have to decide how much wiggle room you want for that liner to actually fit into that frame opening. They don't always come in perfectly aligned or perfectly sized.

This frame that I am building now will fit a 49x92 canvas original and, so far, everything lines up correctly using this method. The alternative is to order the liner the correct size of what you are framing and, when it comes in, measure the outside dimensions and order your frame accordingly. that takes another week and isn't necessary if you already have the samples to take the measurements from and understand why you are measuring this way.

Then there is the problem with joining a frame this size that has the roundover profiles that some of the Roma mouldings have!!! I have learned very quickly how to build jigs to hold the mouldings and keep them off of the metal fence of my underpinner so the fence doesn't imprint onto the end of the moulding joint. The guys at Roma were very helpful in guiding me in the right direction for that part of the operation.

Good luck.
 
Framerguy said:
I have learned very quickly how to build jigs to hold the mouldings and keep them off of the metal fence of my underpinner so the fence doesn't imprint onto the end of the moulding joint. The guys at Roma were very helpful in guiding me in the right direction for that part of the operation.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Are you going to show us some pix of those jigs, or am I going to have to come all the way down there to see them?
 
jframe said:
Are you going to show us some pix of those jigs, or am I going to have to come all the way down there to see them?
Click to expand...


Ha!!!!

(Bite tongue, bite tongue, bite tongue)
 
My understanding of the concern is that the lip of the cap moulding cover the face of the floater. Selecting the proper combination of mouldings is the first thing to do. Then, ordering either oversize if you can re-cut, or one at a time if you can't is the way to go.

The above steps are critical if you want to end up with a product as shown below.
 

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thanks again! Well the good news is my frame did fit. So Phew.....Never ordering two frames from different vendors again! Btw, I like the image you posted!!! :-D Thanks again!!
 
You might want to read this FACTS standard on ordering chops and frames.
http://artfacts.org/standards/frm_397.html

It has all the terms spelled out and arrows pointing to the surfaces to be measured etc.


The main message here is to not let ANYONE but you determing the "Allowance" - and you do this by ordering chops using the term "EXACT".

I would recommend ordering by Email, FAX, or snail mail (to establish a paper trail) and include a copy of the standard because the moulding supplier probably never saw it.
 
Greg Fremstad said:
The main message here is to not let ANYONE but you determing the "Allowance" - and you do this by ordering chops using the term "EXACT".

...and include a copy of the standard because the moulding supplier probably never saw it.
Click to expand...

I agree that you need to use "EXACT" as the meaurement type, but I maintain that in reality there is no such thing as exact. Every measurement (even the manufacture of mission-critical airplane engine bearings) is subject to tolerance. The best thing is to have everything in hand and cut and adjust to fit yourself.

(and yes, we know what "exact", "frame", "sight" and "outside" dimensions are and encourage our customers to do the same)
 
Dave,

I was talking about "Allowance" not "Tolerance". The allowance is designed into the frame to allow for errors in measuring, marking, cutting, squareness, and expansion of materials going INTO the frame.There is tolerance on allowance but the allowance varies quite a bit from supplier to supplier.

On a poll we did for FACTS before we wrote this standard, 12% of problems in ordering chops and frames pointed at the allowance. (476 respondants in 2 polls in PFM)

The tolerance is how close the chopper gets to the allowance desired. Of course there will always be ± tolerance on the allowance.


We found that some metal frame choppers used 1/16 allowance (plus a tolerance). On some frames for canvas the choppers allowed 3/16. It was all over the place even though the industry generally uses 1/8 inch.

The EXACT term is to tell the chopper exactly what size the framer wants the frame to measure , ± the reasonable tolerance for the industry.

For example, the peel and stick spacers used widely in this industry work best if the allowance is 1/32 to 1/16 inch. (Because the spacer moves back and forth in the frame with the glass the amount of the allowance)

The good spacer, "FrameSpace", that grips over the edge of the glass will work just fine for the majority of frames with the industry standard 18/ inch allowance. (Because the FrameSpace adds a little less than 1/16 inch to the glass leaving a little more than 1/16 "Allowance" for errors and tolerances.

Does this make more sense now?
 
Greg, I knew exactly (no pun intended) what you meant. When I said "I agree that you need to use "EXACT" as the meaurement type" I was referring to the type of measurement ("exact" as opposed to the more normal "frame" dimension), not the tolerance. I was merely pointing out that in a situation where the tolerances are critical you need to account for them by making the final trimming/adjusting yourself, because "exact" does not mean perfect.
 
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