Is it a signature?

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bren

True Grumbler
Joined
Nov 19, 2005
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72
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northern california
Hi, grumblers, nice to be back at my first forum! But, of course it's with a gnarly little question. I have a customer who wants us to fill in all the lines of his gift marriage document - a duplicate of the original, but this one to LOOK GOOD - and be framed. My manager says fill in only the lines that are not signature lines, the customer says, no, it's just writing the names all in a matching style! I can see both points, but I don't actually want to put anything on those lines without some kind of disclaimer or other. Question: is there a one word sort of way to say this isn't an official signature?

I need input from someone who's got a clue what they're doing in an instance like this. Is there a kosher way to handle it? Thanks for reading!

Of course he needs it this week, etc., etc.

='.'=
 
I did this for my parents recently

I orderd a VERY nice victorian style one on the internet and actually contacted the minister to fill it out again.
The other option is to have it filled out in caligraphy and have the minister sign it. That is what I am going to do with my upcoming wedding
 
A little more information; it is the minister himself who wants this done - and it is the witness lines that are the bone of contention. I don't have their permission to write their names, and I didn't witness it myself! :confused:
 
No can do. it's a representation or place holder for a legal document. No alteration allowed.

California Law is very sticky about this now... somewhere in the 10-20 and another 20 if you conspire with the minister to perform the forgery.

Note: Conspiracy is a seperate offence and it help so seperate that you don't even have to be found guilty of the other[minor] offence to be remanded to prison to serve the 20 which carries with it absolutely no time off for any reason.
 
If this document is just a decorative duplicate I'd say fill in anything the customer wants and just be sure (privately) to print out and include a copy of this topic inside the frame!

Or write something on the back (of the document) so in case it ends up on History Detectives in about 200 years someone doesn't go getting all excited if the signing parties end up being famous.
 
Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
California Law is very sticky about this now... somewhere in the 10-20 and another 20 if you conspire with the minister to perform the forgery.
Click to expand...
Go figure, you can get less time in Cali for murder!
 
Yes, but if you "Conspire" to commite murder with three or more people.... You get the murder sentence AND the 20 for conspiracy.

That's how they are holding many of the hard core gangers behind bars for 25-40 years.
 
Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
No can do. it's a representation or place holder for a legal document. No alteration allowed.

California Law is very sticky about this now... somewhere in the 10-20 and another 20 if you conspire with the minister to perform the forgery.

Note: Conspiracy is a seperate offence and it help so seperate that you don't even have to be found guilty of the other[minor] offence to be remanded to prison to serve the 20 which carries with it absolutely no time off for any reason.
Click to expand...
Exactly. This is why I was hoping for a disclaimer symbol, a word or two to establish that this is a work of art, not a legal signature. The document is now blank.

Naturally, he must have it soon, the witnesses are way out of state and so on. You know, I didn't ask him why he didn't even sign his own name on it! This is all based on a brief phone call - another framer took this in - the conspiracy widens ... I'll have to pick a few more brains around here *and* the shop. Thanks everyone, for the input.

Lol, Framar, History Detectives! You never know, huh. Well, I dasn't go to jail!
 
Maybe you can use the same disclaimers that psychics and Tarot Card readers use??

Something like "this is for entertainment (artistic, demonstrative, etc, in this case) purposes only, blabla, not a real binding legal document."
 
How about just saying no?! That works, also.

Tell him you do not want to be a party to forgery.
 
Of course I'm totally willing to say no if there's no acceptably short disclaimer for the face/witness lines. I just keep thinking there's some Latin word/phrase that will do the job! "Sic," "caveat emptor," like that. :D

='.'=
 
...oh, and a drivers liscence too?!!
 
How about "Not A Legal Document" written (in beautiful handwriting, of course!) on it somewhere? Would that absolve bren from criminal activity?
AND (not instead of) on the signature lines, PRINT the names that should be there and underneath each line "by bren whatever-bren's-last-name-is"?
 
The millisecond the customer made the request would be a great time to say, "Hang on one second. I have some great archival pens that you can use to fill it out right now." I do have pens, sharp, pencils, and art gum erasers under the counter for just such an occasion. Anytime a customer says "do you think you could just....." I immediately start thinking about how I can avoid the "just" without saying NO.

I wouldn't do this. Ignoring the legal ramifications, what if the customer says, "Well that don't look like her hand writing and yours stinks"? My handwriting makes Dr.’s look like calligraphers.

Or even better why not just ask if they want to use brick red or vine yellow because that is all the crayola crayons you have in the back that the kids haven’t broken!
 
According to Baer's comments, California law seems terribly restrictive.

In Ohio, specific legal documents are required represent a legal marriage. Forging them would be a criminal offense.

A decorative "marriage certificate" issued by a church, or inscribed by a calligrapher for display, would not replace or conflict with the legal marriage documents. No problem. I have inscribed dozens of them over the years.

Trying to duplicate a person's signature is another matter -- on any kind of document. That is illegal. So, when I inscribe decorative marriage certificates (they all have blank lines for witnesses and such), I inscribe the names in a calligraphic style consistent with the rest of the document, so there is no confusion about those inscribed names being taken as signatures. Under Ohio law, a calligraphically-inscribed name is considered like a typed name. And since these are not legal documents, there is no requirement for actual signatures. That is, the names are to inform, not to certify.

I would not simply hand-write anyone's name, as that could be taken as a false signature.

If you are concerned about this, get a lawyer's opinion. Or, if you don't want to suffer that expense, call the Attorney General's office in your state.
 
Jim, you are 100% correct. California, when it comes to documents and signitures is increadably restrictive. And if might have something to do with 1 in 27 people in CA is a lawyer. Let me rephrase that.. BORED lawyer... so they end up writing litigation on anything.
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I think your idea of calligraphy for the names is a spectacular idea. Especially because my signiture is right up there with Jay's.
 
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