• Welcome! You will have to REGISTER a free account, before you can access the system. If you already registered, please LOG IN. (top right)
    If you can't remember your password, CLICK HERE to reset it. If you have questions, feel free to click the CONTACT US link at the bottom of this page.

Intro and foam core board

Advertise on the G, a forum for framers only

edouble

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
12
Location
Pennsylvania
Business
Framed Art
Hello. First post and please feel free to bash me any way you see fit. I am here to learn from the best of the best and anyone in between.

I want to combine my passion for photography and make my own picture frames from raw wood blanks. And I am going to sell my combination of photograph and frame as fine art. For now I am using garage tools such as a planar, table saw and router table to make my frames. I am perfecting my skills with these tools and I refuse to use any wood filler on any miter joint.

This is the first frame that I made and I did not finish it. To date I have made 2 frames.

IMG_2918.JPG IMG_2919.JPEG


I want to use conservation framing techniques to hold my image; I want the image and frame to last a lifetime. I have the basics covered, UV glazing, acid-free matting, damage free hinging, frame sealing tape, dust cover.....

There is 1 aspect that I have not been able to fully grasp. My framed package will consist of glazing, mat, image, mat board, then what? Do I have to use a foam core board after the mat board? Can't I just cover the mat board in frame backing paper and call it done?

Thank you.
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
16,313
Location
Gloucester, MA
Welcome to the G! No bashing, maybe some joking here and there, but all in good fun.

Your frame looks very nice! Do you want to keep it unfinished?

If your frame is deep enough, I would use the foam board as well, it provides a little more rigidity than just a mat as backer.

How do you hinge the photos?
 

Larry Peterson

PFG, Picture Framing God
Forum Donor
Resource Provider
Joined
Apr 8, 2003
Messages
8,809
Location
Wilkes-Barre, PA

Shayla

WOW Framer
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
31,957
Location
Washington State
Hi, e! Welcome to the Grumble.

It's important to have a thicker substrate than just a matboard (or even layers of mat) behind the art. Without a more rigid substrate, the photo can warp/bow over time. We've had these come in over the years, with just a mat backing, and it gets wavy. Cool frame! :)
 

edouble

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
12
Location
Pennsylvania
Business
Framed Art
Welcome to the G! No bashing, maybe some joking here and there, but all in good fun.

Your frame looks very nice! Do you want to keep it unfinished?

If your frame is deep enough, I would use the foam board as well, it provides a little more rigidity than just a mat as backer.

How do you hinge the photos?

Thank you for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it!

Well... when I was gluing the frame I did not keep the face flat, noob error. I should have planed it with a hand plane, instead I passed it through my straight bit on my router and that did not turnout well.

Also my miters are not perfect on this frame, I had too much play in my miter rails that I made. I learn by doing and now I know what not to do!

I am hinging using linen hinge tape to start...

thumbnail_IMG_3293.jpg

You should learn more about hinge mounting if you want conservation. Here is a thread that has some helpful (and some a bit distracting - if Tom Lehrer is distracting) info on hinge mounting.

Help with buckling window mats https://www.thegrumble.com/threads/help-with-buckling-window-mats.84994/#post-1104501

Hi Larry, thank you for the linked information, I will add it to my resources.

I am going to hinge using linen hinging tape to start. Knowing that I cannot leave well enough alone and that I am a DIY type of person I am sure I will be wetting my paper soon :)


Hi, e! Welcome to the Grumble.

It's important to have a thicker substrate than just a matboard (or even layers of mat) behind the art. Without a more rigid substrate, the photo can warp/bow over time. We've had these come in over the years, with just a mat backing, and it gets wavy. Cool frame! :)

Ahhhh thank you! @Ylva I am going to answer your questions in this reply as well.



This is where the meat and potatoes of my question lies.

I want to keep my frame thickness under 3/4". With glazing (1/8"), mat (1/16"), mat board (1/16") I am at 1/4". I still need roughly 1/16" for frame sealant tape around the rabbet so let's call the rabbet depth of 3/8".

My mat size will be approximately 17"x23", image is 11"x17". With conservation framing in mind, I will need to use acid-free foam board. The issue is that the foam board would have to be 1/8" thick, which would give me a rabbet depth of 1/2". I cannot find a acid-free foam board that is a minimum of 17"x23" and only 1/8" thick.

What do you suggest?
 
Ad Banner for SmallCorp

Larry Peterson

PFG, Picture Framing God
Forum Donor
Resource Provider
Joined
Apr 8, 2003
Messages
8,809
Location
Wilkes-Barre, PA
I cannot find a acid-free foam board that is a minimum of 17"x23" and only 1/8" thick.
1/8" AF Foam Board is a standard thickness, along with 3/16". Any distributor of framing supplies will carry it. If you can't find it anywhere else here is one source:

Foamboard Collection - Bainbridge, Gatorfoam, Gilman & More https://www.unitedmfrs.com/Foamboard_s/1701.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=1701&show=40&page=1&search=%20acid%20free

They will ship 32x40 UPS but expect high shipping costs. I ordered FC from them early in the pandemic when normal distributors were shut down.
 

wpfay

Comfort Badger
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 1, 2000
Messages
12,527
Location
Jacksonville Beach, FL USA
Business
Sunshine Frames
Sounds like you are off to a good start.
I'm trying to figure out the width of the frames you made.
Just how are you joining them?
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
16,313
Location
Gloucester, MA
I don’t even have linen hinge tape in my shop.
For photos, depending on the paper it is printed on, it might be too thick and could actually show.

I either use photo corners, strips, thin framers tape if not of value, or paper hinges.
 

wpfay

Comfort Badger
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 1, 2000
Messages
12,527
Location
Jacksonville Beach, FL USA
Business
Sunshine Frames
Good with the splines, I saw them in later images.
Ylva's concerns about linen tape are real. There are better ways to mount the art. If you are printing your work, using larger margins and employing passive supports are better for long term success.
 
W.D Quinn Saw Co. - US Made Picture Frame Blades

edouble

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
12
Location
Pennsylvania
Business
Framed Art
I don’t even have linen hinge tape in my shop.
For photos, depending on the paper it is printed on, it might be too thick and could actually show.

I either use photo corners, strips, thin framers tape if not of value, or paper hinges.

Good with the splines, I saw them in later images.
Ylva's concerns about linen tape are real. There are better ways to mount the art. If you are printing your work, using larger margins and employing passive supports are better for long term success.

Thank you for suggesting that I mount the image in a different way than hinging tape. Can you direct me an example on how you recommend I mount a 11"x17" image with a border?
 

framah

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Mar 15, 2001
Messages
9,150
Location
Ellsworth, Me. USA
Business
death star driver
Here's another suggestion.. make the frame deeper. From the looks of it, the rabbet depth leaves almost no room for any backer.
Please, tell us how deep is the rabbet? Actually, how about all of the dimensions so we have more to go on. Thanks.
Off to a good start.
Another thought.. do alot of these frames in throw away wood yo start with. Make your mistakes and learning on cheap stuff, not the expensive, high quality wood you will eventually use.
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
16,313
Location
Gloucester, MA
Thank you for suggesting that I mount the image in a different way than hinging tape. Can you direct me an example on how you recommend I mount a 11"x17" image with a border?

It truly depends on the value of the piece, is it replaceable or not.

For photos, easily replaceable ones, I use the thinnest framers tape. I still t-hinge them to back board.
Anything valuable would get either mounting strips, corners, sink mount if on thicker backing, and in some cases paper hinges.
 

wpfay

Comfort Badger
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 1, 2000
Messages
12,527
Location
Jacksonville Beach, FL USA
Business
Sunshine Frames
Corner and edge supports can be made from Japanese paper, or clear film (Melenex).
For digitally reproduced images, where the digital file is securely stored, dry mounting is an option since the piece can be easily replaced.
Many professional photographers are choosing a permanent mount to smooth substrates as opposed to reversible hinges and non-attached supports.
As was mentioned in another thread, Ansel Adams dry mounted his photos to make them flat.
 

CHolt

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
144
Good job on the inlay and spline joinery. When you're milling your own stock you have a lot of options. In any project you must work backwards from your final intent to your first step. When starting with four quarter rough stock milling/sanding allowance can let you finish to up to 5/8" rabbet depth at maximum. That's plenty to fit glass, mat(s), mount and filler board.

Inconsistent milling or clamping that results in a mismatched joint like your picture shows can be sanded to "fake" or fair in to a decent result, but it's a bunch of work that will teach you to think ahead when you plan and work through your project from its first step.
 
W.D Quinn Saw Co. - US Made Picture Frame Blades

edouble

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
12
Location
Pennsylvania
Business
Framed Art
Here's another suggestion.. make the frame deeper. From the looks of it, the rabbet depth leaves almost no room for any backer.
Please, tell us how deep is the rabbet? Actually, how about all of the dimensions so we have more to go on. Thanks.
Off to a good start.
Another thought.. do alot of these frames in throw away wood yo start with. Make your mistakes and learning on cheap stuff, not the expensive, high quality wood you will eventually use.

The frame I posted is only a test frame, the rabbet size is completely arbitrary. I did use cheap wood that I bought at Lowes, this was red oak and maple that I will not be using for a finished frame.

I will be using a 1" mat width with a 1.75" frame width. I simulated this in photoshop and I think it looks good.

11_18_2 1x1mat 175x175frame resize.JPG

It truly depends on the value of the piece, is it replaceable or not.

For photos, easily replaceable ones, I use the thinnest framers tape. I still t-hinge them to back board.
Anything valuable would get either mounting strips, corners, sink mount if on thicker backing, and in some cases paper hinges.

Thank you, it looks like corner mounting will be the way to go.

Corner and edge supports can be made from Japanese paper, or clear film (Melenex).
For digitally reproduced images, where the digital file is securely stored, dry mounting is an option since the piece can be easily replaced.
Many professional photographers are choosing a permanent mount to smooth substrates as opposed to reversible hinges and non-attached supports.
As was mentioned in another thread, Ansel Adams dry mounted his photos to make them flat.

Thanks for the information! I do not want to dry mount, I want to preserve the image. Although, I think that dry mounting is something I should think more about after hearing your feedback.

Good job on the inlay and spline joinery. When you're milling your own stock you have a lot of options. In any project you must work backwards from your final intent to your first step. When starting with four quarter rough stock milling/sanding allowance can let you finish to up to 5/8" rabbet depth at maximum. That's plenty to fit glass, mat(s), mount and filler board.

Inconsistent milling or clamping that results in a mismatched joint like your picture shows can be sanded to "fake" or fair in to a decent result, but it's a bunch of work that will teach you to think ahead when you plan and work through your project from its first step.

Thank you. I will be working with a local wood mill and I will have a lot of options on sizes.
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
16,313
Location
Gloucester, MA
Now here comes the professional framer/designer feedback (I don't mean just mine, just to be clear)

In your sample, the mat is the darkest element of the presentation. It draws too much attention to the mat, where you don't want it.
I know this is just a simulation, but the color of the frame is 'off'.

There is another thread on mats and widths.
Skinny mats (and 1" is skinny) is a thing of the past.


As for drymounting, these are your own photos, right? Meaning you can replace them if needed? If so, I would not hesitate to drymount them.

I rarely drymount and don't have the equipment for it. I have 'perfect mount' in stock, which is a self adhesive foam board. I rarely use it, but for the occasional job, it works nicely.
 

edouble

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
12
Location
Pennsylvania
Business
Framed Art
Now here comes the professional framer/designer feedback (I don't mean just mine, just to be clear)

In your sample, the mat is the darkest element of the presentation. It draws too much attention to the mat, where you don't want it.
I know this is just a simulation, but the color of the frame is 'off'.

There is another thread on mats and widths.
Skinny mats (and 1" is skinny) is a thing of the past.


As for drymounting, these are your own photos, right? Meaning you can replace them if needed? If so, I would not hesitate to drymount them.

I rarely drymount and don't have the equipment for it. I have 'perfect mount' in stock, which is a self adhesive foam board. I rarely use it, but for the occasional job, it works nicely.

The simulation is only for me to better visually understand the ratios with image/mat/frame. The frame color is only to separate the mat from the frame, this is not the actual frame. I really like black mats, I think it makes the colors in a photograph "pop".

I have read a lot about image/mat/frame ratios. I have found a great source of information here. Based on the golden ratio and traditional mat sizing, for an 11x17" image the mat width should be 2". I like a 1" mat for this image size in landscape orientation although everything I read, including your comments and others, a 1" mat should be avoided. I have also read that the mat should be 1.5x the frame size.

I am selling my art work as a complete frame with image. I want the art to last a lifetime, that is why I am trying to preserve the package as much as possible. I do not intend for anyone to need to or want to replace the image. I do not have drymount equipment either. I think that corner mounting is the way for me to go, do you agree?
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
16,313
Location
Gloucester, MA
Corner mounting would definitely work. But look into "Perfect mount" board as well.

As for frame margins: it is based both on the art and the frame.

All frame jobs I sell usually have at least a 2 3/4" mat. 11x17 would probably get a 3" mat. I can't remember last time I sold a 1" or a 2" mat, unless there is a certain amount of wall spacewhich might limit the overal size.
When I show my customer what 2" looks like versus 3", they always opt for the 3"

Black does not make colors 'pop'. It distracts from the actual image if there is no other black in the image. It is a harsh. You want the framing, including the mat, to high light the art. Support it, not distract from it.

If you are set on black mats, you should consider using a black frame as well.
Very popular right now is white mats and white frames. Very useful for colorful art sometimes.
 

Prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
19,363
Location
The Grand Duchy of Lincolnyshire
Hi and Welcome. 😎

Good question re. backing.

The mat and board that it is hinged to should be regarded as a entity in itself. It should not double as the
backer. Thing is, in the course of it's life the frame will be subject to abuse and the back is maybe more
vulnerable than the front. It can be dented by careless leaning up against furniture (chairs?) or too-long
nails in walls. Any prods will go though to the art. Therefore a stout backer is a good idea. I use 2.5mm MDF
(which may be frowned upon in some quarters). What ever it's shortcomings it's very tough to puncture.

Love the frames btw. Nice to be able to create your own designs.
 
Vermont Hardwoods solid wood picture frame molding

edouble

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
12
Location
Pennsylvania
Business
Framed Art
Corner mounting would definitely work. But look into "Perfect mount" board as well.

As for frame margins: it is based both on the art and the frame.

All frame jobs I sell usually have at least a 2 3/4" mat. 11x17 would probably get a 3" mat. I can't remember last time I sold a 1" or a 2" mat, unless there is a certain amount of wall spacewhich might limit the overal size.
When I show my customer what 2" looks like versus 3", they always opt for the 3"

Black does not make colors 'pop'. It distracts from the actual image if there is no other black in the image. It is a harsh. You want the framing, including the mat, to high light the art. Support it, not distract from it.

If you are set on black mats, you should consider using a black frame as well.
Very popular right now is white mats and white frames. Very useful for colorful art sometimes.

Thank you for the feedback, your comments are invaluable. I thought I had this figured out, now I’m understanding how little I understand and why framing is an art itself that can only be done correctly from years of experience.

Hi and Welcome. 😎

Good question re. backing.

The mat and board that it is hinged to should be regarded as a entity in itself. It should not double as the
backer. Thing is, in the course of it's life the frame will be subject to abuse and the back is maybe more
vulnerable than the front. It can be dented by careless leaning up against furniture (chairs?) or too-long
nails in walls. Any prods will go though to the art. Therefore a stout backer is a good idea. I use 2.5mm MDF
(which may be frowned upon in some quarters). What ever it's shortcomings it's very tough to puncture.

Love the frames btw. Nice to be able to create your own designs.

I’m sold! I’ll certainly using a backing board!

😊
 

wpfay

Comfort Badger
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 1, 2000
Messages
12,527
Location
Jacksonville Beach, FL USA
Business
Sunshine Frames
I'm not intending to pile on here, but, if I were you, I would go on line to look at how photographs are being displayed in high end galleries.
For the last decade, at least, the trend is toward the white on white look. This allows the photograph its own space/environment while not competing with the art for the viewer's attention. The frame becomes more of an architectural element than a design element pointing to itself.

The idea of a narrow mat was from a minimalist concept that started in the mid-late 50's and was present in frame design into the 80's. Coupled with that narrow mat was a narrow metal frame. The idea was to approach the look of no frame at all since the frame was viewed as competing with the art.

When I'm designing matting and framing for a piece of art, the mats are usually neutral with a possible bit of color in a second mat, and they generally range in width from 2.5" to 4".
Narrow mats also have the disadvantage of putting more pressure on the margins of the art, which can lead to cockling should there be an environmental change, something as simple as having the windows open and the humidity spike from a cloudburst. Paper contacts and expand with changes in the environment and restriction will cause the paper to buckle (cockling). This is not easily remedied, and for ink jet prints, replacement is the quick answer.
1' wide mats are also difficult to register in the frame. There is typically a 1/8" allowance inside the frame for the paper goods to move naturally with environmental changes. Getting the the image centered with only 13/16" of mat showing and a 1/8" allowance (also not resorting to making it a tight fit) will be a challenge.

Black is a very strong design element and unless the art has a very graphic presence the mat will dominate the viewer's attention. It can enhance a piece of art that has a strong dark/light interplay (chiaroscuro), but in my experience, with a few exceptions, it is best used as a minimal design element, such as a 3/16-1/4" second mat.

You are to be commended for wanting your work to be framed in such a way that it will last a lifetime. I'm all for preservation framing. Unfortunately, once the piece leaves your care, there is no controls on how it is treated. I would also hazard a guess that, unless the work has some market or sentimental value, it's life expectancy may be 20 years. Probably less, as tastes and trends change. I see works that were trendy 10-20 years ago show up at thrift stores, and on trash piles. It doesn't help the longevity that we are still a throw-away, consumer society.

Lastly for pieces that are easily replaced, there is less risk of having to do that for a dry mounted piece than there is for something archivally hinged, or using corner pockets. All the things that can go wrong are the same, it's just that a dry mounted piece won't cockle from raised humidity*. Nothing comes back to the shop quicker than a piece that is not laying flat in the frame.
*Unless the mount also buckles, and for that to happen usually means there is something seriously wrong with the environment where the piece is hung.
 

framah

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Mar 15, 2001
Messages
9,150
Location
Ellsworth, Me. USA
Business
death star driver
....and now, for one more piece of advice!!! :nuts:

Rule number 2 of matting and framing is to ignore rule number 1 whenever necessary.
All of these bits of advice are good to know but not the rule to end all rules.

Pretty much the only time I use a black mat is if the image is very dark and you want to make the image pop.
A full moon rising over a black silhouette of a landscape... a black mat and frame is the only way to go.

I personally, hate white mats unless the overall image is very light in which case
it needs to make the image soft/subtle...or if the customer insists.

Which leads me to yet another rule applicable to framing:
If the customer wants a green suit, you sell him a green suit. You just don't sew your label into it.:thumbsup:
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Donor
Featured Vendor
Joined
May 19, 2000
Messages
18,258
Location
Suburban Central Ohio
Welcome to The G.

Well, since you're being bombarded with good advice from opinionated framers, I'll join in...

First, regarding the attachment of your art in the frame, I would prefer to make full-length edge supports out of acid-free tissue, glassine, or other thin, high-quality paper. Simply cut 1" to 1/1/2" wide strips, fold to cover about 1/4" of the art paper's edges, and then glue the strips to your backing board. Just be sure to make them loose enough to allow normal expansion & contraction cycles; 1/16" vertical and horizontal allowance should do nicely.

Corner pockets are quick and easy, but if longevity is desired, please understand that corner pockets have limitations:

1. They require the art paper to stand on its bottom corners. Especially in the event of mechanical stress such as vibration, or extreme expansion/contraction, heat, or moisture in the frame, the middle of the bottom edge could drop a little, which would create 45-degree wrinkles on one or both bottom quadrants of the paper.

2. Corner pockets are stuck to the backing board by small, triangular patches double-sided tape, which has a tendency to fail under any amount of stress over time, or in the event of impact. And when the adhesive fails, it usually detaches from the (non-porous) plastic corners and sticks to the (porous) backing board. When the art paper drops loose, it can re-attach directly to the patches of adhesive. That would be bad, but it happens.

3. Corner pockets, like all other perimeter supports, must be carefully positioned to allow expansion/contraction cycles, because they cannot be repositioned. If the corner pockets fit too tightly, they could make the art paper cockle. So, be sure the art is slightly loose in the pockets (or edge strips, for that matter).

Now, about the design...
In my opinion, matting serves three purposes:
1. The mat's thickness separates the glazing from the art, but this purpose could be served by glass spacers.

2. The mat's color serves to coordinate colors; perhaps to tie the framed art into a room setting or to emphasize/deemphasize some color(s) in the art.

3. The mat's width determines the framed art's visual priority in the room. That is, a wide mat can be used to create a focal point in the room, and a narrow mat diminishes its visual importance. Some consumers mistakenly believe that a wide mat distracts from the art, but no. If the mat distracts, then the problem is its color, not its width. Indeed, a properly-selected wide mat and gives the image a larger, neutral surrounding in the frame and focuses more attention toward the art.

In my favorite frame designs, the mat's width is at least twice the frame moulding's width. Again, this is just my opinion, but I've worked with a lot of customers and looked at a lot of frame designs in the past thirty years.

As our good friend Ellen Collins says, take when you can use and leave the rest.
 
Last edited:

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
16,313
Location
Gloucester, MA
Lol, I hope you are not overwhelmed yet!

As Ralph (framah) said, the ultimate decision in a frame shop is with the customer. I show options, including what customers had in mind when the walked in. I rarely sell white mats with black frames.

The white on white treatment can be beautiful.

I do use it in some cases where someone wants a universal look. Or when something is so colorful, it needs to stand on its own and the white and white looks very pleasing in that case.

However, you have no input from a potential customer as you want to sell it framed already.
You might want to consider framing the same image a few different ways and see what sells.

Keep asking questions and search the archives here.
 
LifeSaver Cloud from LifeSaver Software, Inc.

edouble

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
12
Location
Pennsylvania
Business
Framed Art
I'm not intending to pile on here, but, if I were you, I would go on line to look at how photographs are being displayed in high end galleries.
For the last decade, at least, the trend is toward the white on white look. This allows the photograph its own space/environment while not competing with the art for the viewer's attention. The frame becomes more of an architectural element than a design element pointing to itself.

....

Thank you for all of the information and taking the time to share it with me. I cannot say enough how much I appreciate your comments.

I want my frames to have a natural wood look and to be seen for the craftsmanship that went into making them including the story behind it from going to the saw mill and selecting straight grain lumber to finishing the frame to enhance the wood grain. With that being said I do not plan on painting my frames, I want the natural wood grain to be emphasized. What I see online is the opposite, I rarely see natural wood grain frames. I feel that I was heading against the grain (no pun intended lol) with 1" borders, black matting, natural wood frames and probably one of the best decisions I have made was making this thread to learn from all of you.

I am now in the direction of:
  • 11x17" image size (I may crop to more of a 0.5 ratio for landscape photos)
  • 3" mat size
  • 2" frame width (mat width /1.5x)
  • color mat versus black or white (I was set on only using black or white mats)
@Ylva has recommended Perfect Mount Board for photo prints, I am going to research that, what do you think about that mounting method for my application?

....then. I think to myself what is my style going to be as an artist? I thought it was 1" mat borders, black or white mats, natural wood frames and conservation framing. All of you have your style, and I think that it is going to take some time for me to find mine and again everyone's input on this forum is priceless.

....and now, for one more piece of advice!!! :nuts:

Rule number 2 of matting and framing is to ignore rule number 1 whenever necessary.
All of these bits of advice are good to know but not the rule to end all rules.

....

You brought up a very good point, knowing who your customer is. Your input is certainly helping me understand what customers are asking for!

Welcome to The G.

Well, since you're being bombarded with good advice from opinionated framers, I'll join in...

.....

Thank you thank you thank you, I appreciate you and the time you took to share this information!!!

Lol, I hope you are not overwhelmed yet!

.....

Thank you again Ylva, you may get tired of reading that but I appreciate your input immensely. What I am learning from yourself and others may have taken me years, or never to understand.

I am going to research your suggestion for Perfect Mount Board. This is making more sense to me now to use this versus hinges or corners mounts.

One aspect of my art that I haven't shared until this post is that all of my frames will be natural wood, I do not want to hide the beauty of the wood grains that I will be using.

You also nailed it on the head that I do not have customer input since I am not a customer based business rather an art based business. Again, everyone's input has steered me in the right directions.
 

edouble

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
12
Location
Pennsylvania
Business
Framed Art

wpfay

Comfort Badger
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 1, 2000
Messages
12,527
Location
Jacksonville Beach, FL USA
Business
Sunshine Frames
That looks good, but maybe a couple overkill areas:
1. The Crescent Prefect Mount may be a good stand alone mount, not needing a secondary support.
2. Frame sealing tape is used to stop any acidic gasses from entering the frame, but only works in concert with other vapor barriers, which none of the other elements, other than the glass, are. You would be better served using Lineco (pH neutral) dust cover paper to finish off the backs. If you are concerned about wood acid migration from the frames to the art, the 3" distance should suffice, but a layer of the frame sealing tape on the faces of the rabbet would be a cure for that.
Besides, frame sealing tape is a "one and done" kind of tape. If you use it and discover a flumb (a technical, and more socially acceptable term for the tiny piece of detritus that remained hidden in the fame until you have sealed the back) you will curse the day you decided to use it for this purpose.

In looking at natural wood frames, you might want to have a look at Vermont Hardwoods, one of our sponsors, and Picture Woods, another supplier of natural hardwood mouldings, if for nothing more than to get a feel for what is out there. They both achieve very natural finishes on their products, and the wood shines through.
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
16,313
Location
Gloucester, MA
As for unfinished frames, you might want to read this thread, that has a few opinions on that as well:


As for your list, I’d skip the frame sealing tape, as Wally suggested. I exclusively use acid free archival dust cover paper. Lineco is great. I use a gray paper from Larson Juhl. I like the gray better and it is less expensive for me.

You could still use a stain and still see the wood grain. If left untreated, it will undergo some color changes anyway, beyond your control.

Depending on your photos, a white mat and a stained white frame might look stunning.
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Donor
Featured Vendor
Joined
May 19, 2000
Messages
18,258
Location
Suburban Central Ohio
If you are going to make multiple frames of this size, maybe a Platform Mount would be most practical. You can find detailed descriptions in the Grumble archives, but essentially, you would cut a straight-sided window in 4-ply or 8-ply matboard to fit the art paper, plus an expansion allowance of .5% (That's actual dimensions x 1.005). The fall-out is the platform that retains the art paper's edges in the mount, under the window mat. That is, two layers of matboard are all you need - one layer for the window at and one layer for the Platform Mount. No adhesives touch the artwork, and assembly of the mount is fast and easy.

A computerized matcutter cuts Platform Mounts most accurately and conveniently, but you can cut them using a straight-line matcutter, as well. If you're interested in this low-cost, non-adhesive, reversible, preservation mounting alternative, maybe a local framer or framing supplier with a CMC could cut them for you. Once the cutting file is created for a particular size, it is easily repeatable.
 
Hoffmann Dovetail Joining System

edouble

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
12
Location
Pennsylvania
Business
Framed Art
That looks good, but maybe a couple overkill areas:
1. The Crescent Prefect Mount may be a good stand alone mount, not needing a secondary support.
2. Frame sealing tape is used to stop any acidic gasses from entering the frame, but only works in concert with other vapor barriers, which none of the other elements, other than the glass, are. You would be better served using Lineco (pH neutral) dust cover paper to finish off the backs. If you are concerned about wood acid migration from the frames to the art, the 3" distance should suffice, but a layer of the frame sealing tape on the faces of the rabbet would be a cure for that.
Besides, frame sealing tape is a "one and done" kind of tape. If you use it and discover a flumb (a technical, and more socially acceptable term for the tiny piece of detritus that remained hidden in the fame until you have sealed the back) you will curse the day you decided to use it for this purpose.

In looking at natural wood frames, you might want to have a look at Vermont Hardwoods, one of our sponsors, and Picture Woods, another supplier of natural hardwood mouldings, if for nothing more than to get a feel for what is out there. They both achieve very natural finishes on their products, and the wood shines through.

I was planning on using the Lineco Frame Sealing Tape to seal the rabbet. Then use a dust cover, which I forgot to mention. You still do not think that I should use Lineco Frame Sealing tape on the rabbet?

I have a local wood mill that I would like to work with. I will check out the suppliers you suggested, for as you mentioned, to see what is available.

I have tested a few different finishes and so far I have not found what I am looking for. I ordered Waterlox TB 6044 Original Satin Finish and hopefully that will give the look that I am after.

As for unfinished frames, you might want to read this thread, that has a few opinions on that as well:


As for your list, I’d skip the frame sealing tape, as Wally suggested. I exclusively use acid free archival dust cover paper. Lineco is great. I use a gray paper from Larson Juhl. I like the gray better and it is less expensive for me.

You could still use a stain and still see the wood grain. If left untreated, it will undergo some color changes anyway, beyond your control.

Depending on your photos, a white mat and a stained white frame might look stunning.

As I mentioned to Wally, you don't think I need to seal the rabbet?

If you are going to make multiple frames of this size, maybe a Platform Mount would be most practical. You can find detailed descriptions in the Grumble archives, but essentially, you would cut a straight-sided window in 4-ply or 8-ply matboard to fit the art paper, plus an expansion allowance of .5% (That's actual dimensions x 1.005). The fall-out is the platform that retains the art paper's edges in the mount, under the window mat. That is, two layers of matboard are all you need - one layer for the window at and one layer for the Platform Mount. No adhesives touch the artwork, and assembly of the mount is fast and easy.

A computerized matcutter cuts Platform Mounts most accurately and conveniently, but you can cut them using a straight-line matcutter, as well. If you're interested in this low-cost, non-adhesive, reversible, preservation mounting alternative, maybe a local framer or framing supplier with a CMC could cut them for you. Once the cutting file is created for a particular size, it is easily repeatable.

💡I will check that out, thank you.
 

wpfay

Comfort Badger
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 1, 2000
Messages
12,527
Location
Jacksonville Beach, FL USA
Business
Sunshine Frames
Depending on the wood, you may want to look at a more traditional finish with Watco polymerized Tung oil as a base and paste wax as a finish.
With the wider mats, sealing the rabbet is optional.
 

Louise B

Grumbler in Training
Joined
May 14, 2018
Messages
9
Location
Melbourne
I like your idea of an artist designing and making their own frames. Good luck with this - you sound like you have the skills to make great pieces. As others have suggested, consider working with your mill to design a deeper frame. I don't like to use frame profiles with a rabbet shallower than 15 mm (5/8"). This allows for 3 mm (1/8") acrylic, a four ply mount and four ply back, and 5 mm (3/16") foamcore. If the frame is shallower then the thinner 5 mm (1/8") foamcore can be used. I like this brand of foamcore:


Also as mentioned earlier, I would not use linen tape for hinging art, but corners or Mylar edge supports are good.


I like to seal frames with tape, frame to foamcore backing, and don't use a paper dust cover. I prefer gummed paper tape but you do hope the art is kept in a good environment. The Lineco frame sealing tapes are good and better than the commonly used less expensive and very sticky sealing tapes available.
The idea of using Tung oil is good, you get lovely results. I like using shellac and wax. Four to ten coats of shellac then a wax coat and you have something very pretty. It is up to you though, you are the artist, it is your work! Good luck with this.
 

Prospero

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
19,363
Location
The Grand Duchy of Lincolnyshire
What frequently gets ignored or not considered at all is the nature of the item to be framed.

As regards photographs, there are myriad categories from informal family snapshots to arty-type
prints of great gravitas. The way the photo is framed denotes the 'importance'. I often do stand-up
frames where the frame is purely decorative and bears no real association with the subject of the photo.
I generally use a skinny mat for these (30-40mm). Anything wider would make the package too big. In this
circumstance the mat serves mainly as a glass spacer and gives the photo a little bit of breathing space.
The frame is generally wider than the mat. A bit like a liner on a oil painting.
 
Hoffmann Dovetail Joining System

edouble

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
12
Location
Pennsylvania
Business
Framed Art
Depending on the wood, you may want to look at a more traditional finish with Watco polymerized Tung oil as a base and paste wax as a finish.
With the wider mats, sealing the rabbet is optional.

I thought of the methods and supplies a customer would need to ensure +20 years of preservation for my framed art such as acrylic cleaning and wood care. That may include product to preserve the frame that I would include with the purchase. For that reason I am trying to avoid using a wax as the final finish to the frame since that is not permanent and would need reapplied. Do you agree?

I like your idea of an artist designing and making their own frames. Good luck with this - you sound like you have the skills to make great pieces. As others have suggested, consider working with your mill to design a deeper frame. ...

I am undecided on the frame thickness and thank you for sharing your thoughts on this.

At this time, I am going to use the Perfect Mount, I know this is not a conservation method and the image should not need replaced in my lifetime, I hope.

Why do you tape the foam core to the frame? I have not come across this method.

Do you think wax coating is the best finishing method for +20 years of display?

What frequently gets ignored or not considered at all is the nature of the item to be framed.

...

Yes! Excellent argument!

My photographs have value and that is why I want to mount them accordingly. My ignorance is shining through as you can read in my replies. I do not know how to "conservation" mount my images and eliminate buckling that was brought to my attention as a concern. For now, until I become smarter, I will Perfect Mount my images even though this is not a conservation mount technique.



One a side note....

I am a HSQE Manager for a manufacturing company. Safety and precision tied into repeatability is my forte.

I made some progress today with my wood working tools. I haven't shared much on the tools that I am using. I am literally starting from ground zero, my basement; I am using 110v on 20a breakers. I have a Kobalt contractor saw from Lowes, Dewalt planar, a Bosch router table and a harbor freight dust collection system. I have my Kobalt saw calibrated to near perfection within it's capabilities and I am very impressed with it. It is hardly a "masters" wood working tool and I believe that if I can get perfect miters from it then any other tool that I purchase for this job will be nothing other than a time saver. Also, I am slowly understanding wood grain patterns and feed directions. This seems so simple until I pass a board through my planar and it doesn't come out as expected.

I have spent over 20 hours perfecting my miter sled. I am currently working on version 5, and I have perfect miters and I can do better. Anyways, here are some pics from the basement :nuts:

IMG_2914.jpeg

IMG_3234.JPG

IMG_3317.JPG

IMG_3320.jpeg

I am currently at a stand still, I better clamps (my current bottle neck)!! Are these the bee's knees? United Mitre Vise (unitedmfrs.com)

IMG_3323.JPG
 

Shayla

WOW Framer
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
31,957
Location
Washington State
They're spendy, but we love our Master Clamps.

I would echo an earlier comment, though. It's wise to try selling a few before you ramp up, hoping to sell many. Important to see if folks will buy it, first.
 
Hoffmann Dovetail Joining System
LifeSaver Cloud from LifeSaver Software, Inc.
Top