Informal poll. Limited edition art.

[johnny]

Your local competition starts printing off giclees of an image that you sold as a limited edition back when you used to sell such things... when they were really limited and when it sold out, it sold out. Lets say 1990.

They are charging $1400 each. "Hand Signed" I'm assuming by the artist. After looking at some prints I recently got from an actual publisher not related to this I realize that's a pretty big assumption though.

Do you:

a. Not care because you've moved beyond this limited edition thinking since the term became meaningless.

b. Not care because at least these guys are probably using their printer with the artists permission which is better than other recent competitors have done.

c. Care because you sold lots of this image as a limited edition (possibly a timed limited edtiion, I don't remember) and what does it say about your reputation if a customer sees them for sale again.

And if C... what do you tell your customer if they had purchased one from you as a limited edition and now see them for sale again?

a. Sorry!

b. I don't know what you're talking about.

c. #### off. The only person stupider than me for being a limited edition dealer is you for buying one. LOLOLOLOLOL.

 

[j Paul]

I was having a discussion with a customer the other day that was wondering about the legalities of limited editions and artists doing just as you have said. We all know many artists also simply just do another edition in a slightly different size or substrate to get around it.

Anyhow said customer asked his daughter who is a lawyer to look into it. The actual laws regulating this (according to his daughter) are pretty slim. However there is that implied contract when the artist says that it is limited and signs his name and # that it is in fact limited to that. So there is a potential case against the artist if he resumes/allows additional prints, both from the retail customer and the vendor that sold the works.

I don't know this to be true, but is the information that customer passed on to me just a few days ago.

 

[Beveled]

C definately. This puts you in a bad position.

Recently, I had a very good customer tell me this very story. Thankfully he had not purchased the print from me, but I did frame it. He told me he paid $400 for the LE print about 10 years ago, and now each summer when he goes to the local art fair, he sees the artist selling all different sizes of the same print for less than half the price he paid for it.

It makes me wanna slap artists upside the head. (I'm an artist too, so I can say that). But whether uninformed or just plain greedy, there seems to be no ethics any more.

I don't know what I would say to the person. Honestly. Sorry is about all you can say.

 

[johnny]

Sold 3 more giclees myself recently. $2000 total for the art and $2000 for the framing.

Called to find out where they were and the shipping was delayed a bit while they "dried."

sldkashfajksdhakjsh

I suppose the artist flew to the publisher to sign them. $2000 and you would think they deserved an actual signature. Now I have to pray that they don't notice that the signatures on each print are completely identical.

I feel dirty.

So... don't sell them anymore? Yup. I didn't actively sell these but I did fill a customer request.

 

[framah]

Sold 3 more giclees myself recently. $2000 total for the art and $2000 for the framing.

Called to find out where they were and the shipping was delayed a bit while they "dried."

sldkashfajksdhakjsh

I suppose the artist flew to the publisher to sign them. $2000 and you would think they deserved an actual signature. Now I have to pray that they don't notice that the signatures on each print are completely identical.

I feel dirty.

So... don't sell them anymore? Yup. I didn't actively sell these but I did fill a customer request.

Why would the signatures be exactly the same?
Giclees aren't made all at once like offset prints are. There is no need to print 100 prints until you need them.

I prints for artists all the time and on an as needed basis. They pick them up or in your case maybe they are mailed to the artist who then signs them and sends them off to you.

So unbunch your panties and stop jumping to conclusions.
Maybe you could ask how the procedure works rather than guessing the worst.

As to your first post, explain to the customer that you have no control over what the artist does. You are not responsible if they decide not to honor the meaning of Limited Edition.

 

[Rick Granick]

Recently, I had a very good customer tell me this very story. Thankfully he had not purchased the print from me, but I did frame it. He told me he paid $400 for the LE print about 10 years ago, and now each summer when he goes to the local art fair, he sees the artist selling all different sizes of the same print for less than half the price he paid for it.

Solution would be for this person to go up to the artist at the art fair, within earshot of people looking at his wares, and loudly call him out for being a "ho".
Rick

 

[copper]

In some states, the seller must provide a certificate of authenticity that clearly states the size of the edition and the status of the plates (or digital files I guess) That information has to be accurate or the seller is committing fraud.

I wonder if people would pay these kinds of prices if they were called reproductions instead?

Dean

 

[johnny]

Why would the signatures be exactly the same?

Well I don't know. You're evidently a budding publisher, you tell me. Why would signatures on multiple prints be exactly the same in size and form? The artistsjust signs so many that he never varies like a robot?

Giclees aren't made all at once like offset prints are. There is no need to print 100 prints until you need them.

Unless you're calling them signed and numbered and the artist lives in another state.

I prints for artists all the time and on an as needed basis. They pick them up or in your case maybe they are mailed to the artist who then signs them and sends them off to you.

That didn't happen. I can tell from the number of pixles and from seeing quite a few shipping labels in my time.

So unbunch your panties and stop jumping to conclusions.
Maybe you could ask how the procedure works rather than guessing the worst.

If you're wondering why I'm responding to you like a smartass this would be where to look. I hope you're taking the responses with good humor.

As to your first post, explain to the customer that you have no control over what the artist does. You are not responsible if they decide not to honor the meaning of Limited Edition.

Notably uncomfortable with that but thanks.

 

[GUMBY GCF]

if a print is made
these things make it an edition alter any one of them & it can be recognized as a different edition.

size of print (different sizes new addition) 9x12,11x14,20x24 etc.
What it is printed on each type of paper or canvas a new addition; D'Arches, fabriano, RivesBFK,Lenox, Geclee's

may be some others but those are the obvious..

So the signed & numbered GeClee's would be considered different than the signed & numbered Prints on Lenox.
But to take the same image Signed & numbered print & start making unnumbered & plate sign prints I guess would be a legal line to explore.

 

[johnny]

if a print is made
these things make it an edition alter any one of them & it can be recognized as a different edition.

size of print (different sizes new addition) 9x12,11x14,20x24 etc.
What it is printed on each type of paper or canvas a new addition; D'Arches, fabriano, RivesBFK,Lenox, Geclee's

may be some others but those are the obvious..

So the signed & numbered GeClee's would be considered different than the signed & numbered Prints on Lenox.
But to take the same image Signed & numbered print & start making unnumbered & plate sign prints I guess would be a legal line to explore.

Do you remember when a Certificate of Authenticity listed all the different editions of a piece? And how many artist proofs there were?

I see why they can make edition after edition, and open editions if they are a different size, but I just can't look my customers in the face and sell something as a limited edition anymore.

It was bad enough when we had to start saying "There's only 15,000 of these made!" But now its more like "Well it's limited but if it's popular just wait around they will keep making slightly different versions. Could be 100,000 of em who knows!"

 

[Le Corb]

With "limited editions" it depends on a quite number of factors.

Reputation of the artist, condition and the size of the artwork as well as the printing method used aside.

How big is the edition? anything over 100 is considered as a large edition.

To qualify as a limited edition, the work needs to be personally signed and numbered by the artist.

How many AP, PP, TP, and HC were made if there were any? (Artists Proof, Printers Proof, Trail Proof, Hors Commerce)

Are there any published literatures or catalogue raisonnes documenting all the information above? (If he/she is an emerging artist, ask for the documentations from him/her and the publisher or the dealer)

Were the original plate, stone, screen, film, original file destroyed after the publication?

If it is a postponed edition/restrike after the artists death, does it have the estate stamp? also if the work is signed in plate.

A proper certificate of authenticity has to be issued by the artist, the publisher, the artist's direct dealer, the artists estate or a qualified appraiser. A COA these days does not mean anything unless it is from those sources. Anyone can issued a COA in the secondary market, however it does not carry any weight in term of proper provenance.

One should Never purchase a "limited edition" print if it fails to meet any of the points mentioned.

Hope it helps.

 

[Dave]

... but I just can't look my customers in the face and sell something as a limited edition anymore.
...

Just a few thoughts...

Let's not forget that not all limited edition prints are made digitally. The true print maker's craft is still alive.

Within the digital world the only guarantees that exist are based on the honesty, reputation and ethics of the artist and publisher.

I've never considered any LE print of an edition over 500 a limited edition. I use to draw the line at 250.

We are publishers of limited edition prints produced digitally. Most of our editions are under 30 with the largest being 50.

The limited edition market is in the toliet now. People want originals and I believe it is simply because of what you are voicing concern about. People place little credibility in the market and I can understand why.

True limited edition stone lithographic, serigraphic or intaglio prints are actually originals unto themselves. No two are alike. You will not find editions of 15,000 in these.

 

[johnny]

Thanks Dave and LeCorb.

Our serigraphs have low edition sizes, are very credible, and look a whole lot better than a giclee but they cost several thousand each.

Seeing people start to use wide format printers to create open editions and charging thousands for these is just the utmost in greed and I believe it harms the industry. I've seen prices up to $7500.

 

[Le Corb]

Indeed, not just harming the industry but at the end of the day themselves as publisher and artist. For $7500 a seasoned collector can pick up a print by some big name artists from professional dealers in the art world, with very good provenance.

I have always wondered why people would charge that kind of price at framers or local art fairs for open edition works by some no name artists in the industry, and people buy them.

Having said that this kind of greed is not as bad as forgeries, counterfeit limited edition "industry" is getting a lot worse. However there should be a tougher law for making fake limited edition/open editions that are advertised as limited edition, at the end of the day it is fraud.

 

[framah]

Well I don't know. You're evidently a budding publisher, you tell me. Why would signatures on multiple prints be exactly the same in size and form? The artistsjust signs so many that he never varies like a robot?

The only way a signature would be EXACTLY the same on every piece is if it was printed along with the art. EVERYONES signature varies a bit from one to the other.


Unless you're calling them signed and numbered and the artist lives in another state.

Wrong thinking here...
Nowhere is there a law that states an LE of an Giclee image HAS to be printed all at once. If it is an edition of 100 then only 100 may be printed. Then the file is supposed to be removed from the computer. In the past, when prints were made by the offset method, they HAD to be printed all at once. That was the nature of the process. In modern times of Giclees, they do not need to be printed all at once.

The artist can print as many or as few as they want or need and then sign and number till they reach the edition limit. If they only sell 15 of 100 then they didn't spend a ton of money on prints that didn't sell... again unlike in the times of offset. If you made a stinker and no one wanted it, you lost your shirt. Not so now. Sorry if you disagree with that but that is how it is.


That didn't happen. I can tell from the number of pixles and from seeing quite a few shipping labels in my time.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Exactly how can you count the pixels of a print? That is impossible.



If you're wondering why I'm responding to you like a smartass this would be where to look. I hope you're taking the responses with good humor.

Yes, with some good humor.
Well, yes I was being a bit of a smartass because you were getting all worked up over something based on misinformation on how Giclee LEs are made.

What I 'm trying to say here is not to cut off your nose to spite your face. It is apparent that something in the process has you all ripped. Find out how it is being done and then you can decide to continue or not.



Notably uncomfortable with that but thanks.

You are right here. Better to not represent any artist who doesn't honor the LE rules.

Now I hope you take my comments in the spirit of trying to help you and not to belittle you. (except for that pixel counting thing. There I AM trying to belittle you because that makes no sense.)

Sorry about this.. My answers are apparently in the body of the quote because I didn't quote each separately. By bad.

 

[johnny]

framah, we're not understanding each other at all.

I don't care if they print them one at a time or all at once.

I do care that I'm selling a signed and numbered print and there is a 0% chance that the artist signed the print. To me, the signature carries no more significance than the other reproduced signature showing from the original painting.

I feel like I've mislead my customer.

And I won't be selling these as signed and numbered prints anymore.

Unrelated... if there is less risk and less cost why the sjkfjshf are they so much more expensive.

 

[framah]

Wow!! We sure are!!

I had no idea you thought the artist wasn't even signing them! I agree with you on that for sure!

Carry on!

 

[MnSue]

An artist I ran across was marking their giclee's "AP" as they printed them. I asked "how many will be in the edition?"

"We haven't decided yet"

so I guess the numbering was AP 1/?

 

[johnny]

It amazes me that people buy this stuff. Then again I purchased and sold many L.E. lithographs back in the day.

One guy has had a wide format printer in his living room for years now. He sells the art out of his car. Prints all kinds of things. Sometimes the artists know....

He lives across the street from the chief of police who says things like "I wondered how he's driving that Jag around."

I understand there's a common way people dillude themselves. I'm guilty of it on several fronts, personal and business. It is to think "Things were so much better in the good ole' days." I remember holidays being better. I remember music being better. I remember politicians being better. I remember industry ethics being better.

But I'm foolin' myself aren't I.

####, back in the 80s one of our competitors had to flee the country. Something about an artist named Dali.

The artwork currently being reproduced here, just by a local small biz, is a print that I'd bet nearly all of us that have ever sold limited edition lithos have sold to customers. One of the big national best sellers. Now eveything old is new again!

 

[Ylva]

I agree with you Johnny. Unfortunately, you can only control what you sell, not what everyone else is doing and selling.

Have you had customers actually come back and confront you with this? Do you expect it happening and trying to find what you should answer?

Could you contact the artist, who is making this happen? Have him provide you with some type of disclaimer/certificate? At least it shows you're on to him (her)....

I think, if one of your customers is going to confront you with this, I would act shocked and make a promise to the customer that you will contact the artist and ask what is going on.

 

[johnny]

Have you had customers actually come back and confront you with this? Do you expect it happening and trying to find what you should answer?

No. The competitor emailed me to ask if I wanted to buy any!

Seriously, you can't make this stuff up.

Then I saw the email and my head asploded and I posted here.

 

[Ylva]

Ouch!!!! I would be so !!!!