In Line Ovals came through for us!!!!


PFG, Picture Framing God
Founding Member
Aug 12, 2000
San Diego, CA
We needed a unique shaped frame for a fan, our customer had gone everywhere, no one could, or would, bother to do it. A call to In Line Ovals took care of it. We received a beautiful gold leafed fan frame that was the exact size we needed. Our customer loved it. This frame was NOT in their line, they had to make it special. Thanks, In line Ovals.

Just another example of why In line Ovals are the only source you will ever need for oval frames!
Pat, you are wrong and Kathy is right. In Line Ovals, the Republican Party, McDonalds and Ford are all we ever needed for oval frames, political leadership, food, respectively transportation.

I would be surprised to learn that Kathy is using more than one manufacturer for all her needs for straight moldings. And rightfully so; all moldings are equally straight.


John, I am glad for your good experience with ILO. However, it is inexact, or a bit unfair, to say that nobody else would bother making a fan frame at exact dimensions for you. I know of at least 4 alternative sources, one of which is located 20 minutes north from your shop, and they all were perfectly able to do that job for you. But yours was a budget job and this is the real reason nobody else accepted it. In such instances ILO is always the good choice. Am I right? Not that I want to take away from ILO's merits, but your omission prompted Kathy to jump to conclusions and she simply can't aford to make one more mistake in business.


Just wonder, do you offer by any chance In Line Ovals to your costumers? You know, their samples are for free! :D :D
JRB, I was so impressed with your unbridled enthusiasm that I made the decision to carry only In Line Ovals. So I just spent the past few hours eliminating all my corner samples and replaced them with In line Ovals. I feel I have made the right decision and fully expect to turn the framing world on it's ears as I revolutionize the industry by selling only oval frames. Thanks very much for sharing your success.

My next step is to find the best source for plastic moulding where my customers can have the best of both worlds, truly extraordinary craftsmanship with the knowledge that the plastic is poured into a mold and handcrafted by artisans. Yup, plastic, lightweight, affordable and a dream to sell, only the best for my customers.
You know, their samples are for free!
I just know I'm going to hate myself in the morning . . .

The full sample set is $175. There is a rebate available if you purchase at least $500 worth of Inline products within 12 months.

Kathy, I used to stock a very nice selection of plastic ovals, though we didn't call them plastic - they were Hydrorxyleneasbestosglucoseexcrement, or something similar.

People would hold one up and ask, "Is this wood?" and, of course, I'd say, "Sure. It comes from the Hydrorxyleneasbestosglucoseexcrement tree."
No, Cornel, I don't carry any ILO samples. I have their catalog, but my only experience with them has been to buy replacement convex glass for those odd standard size (13 5/8 x 19 3/8) antique oval frames. For that I am grateful that they are around.

**** no, I refused to pay for them Ron. I told them they were now my exclusive line of mouldings so the chances were good I would be selling their line.

The beauty of my new concept is now all my frames will come in joined. I will no longer need to build or cut another frame. No more noise from the saw. No more glue on my fingers. Yeah, now that is what framing is all about. I'm waiting for the day that manufacurers can just "stamp" out a frame in any particular size, which will virtually eliminate the need for any tools. Why bother with all that decorative gobbledy gook. My hope is that it will be made out of the cheapest materials known to man so we can pass the savings on to our customers.....
I, myself, was awakend from the comforting arms of sleep earlier by the sound of a diesel motor in my driveway. I leapt up to see who, or what it was, and much to my surprise
it was HUGE delivery van bringing me, at no charge. the entire line of IN LINE OVAL corner samples!

I couldn't believe it! I now must have their complete selection!! Not only that, but AT NO CHARGE!!!! The driver promised to bring me a full set of IN LINE OVALS weekly, AT NO CHARGE!!! It must be my lucky day!!!
And then who needs a custom framer for? The world that Kathy is wishing for is the end day of all but about ten Grumblers.
See, John, why I was a bit concerned with your post? ;) For some people just don't see the slopes even as they slide them down. Now, I won't pretend to believe Kathy, but I do Jerry.


Every supplier has a role to play in the market. I don't like In Line Ovals; so what? They’re doing very well despite my feelings; I am not liked by some grumblers, and I too am not at all sorry for providing to my niche of the market.
Ultimately the market is our most severe judge. Doing poorly or great in business is Market's unbiased sentence.

Now I see a moral distinction here. I don't feel sorry or ashamed for providing to well to do people; but selling soap and rope to disparate and destitute people is a whole different story. Selling the cheapest material possible stamped frames to custom framers would be just that. It is already too late. The Trojan plastic frame is in, custom framers are getting out. Poverty, marginal profits are my witnesses.
Slippery slope? ****, let's get the toboggan and ride this mother to the bottom!

Kathy - you have redefined niche marketing. Superb! The major players are sure to reposition themselves to take their share of this developing market trend.

The plastic frame market is huge. By not supporting the harvesting of poor defenseless trees, you will appeal to all of the environmental activists. I bet all the wealthy nature lovers for a 300 mile radius will flock to your shop. We're lucky to break the 30 mile radius with what we sell. Just don't tell the Enviro customers that you toss the cut off's into the garbage, it could be touchy with them.

But wait, I hear that there is a new company out of China that is making a bendable plastic moulding. Talk about perfect. You don't need to cut it! Forget chop and join. Just give me a piece of small radius pipe and I got finished corners. Man, am I excited. Speaking of that - did someone mention a new latex frame?

Charles - Welcome to the fray!

JRB - Maybe you did not know of that wonderful source that was only 20 miles north of you, then again maybe you did know. :D But did they know about you? Had they dropped off your set of free samples? Regardless, I am sure that you provided just what your customer wanted - I think that's part of the definition of "Custom Picture Framer".
I don't understand why some still care BB's proximity when riding as fast to the bottom of their independent framer prestige and existence as possible is so much funnier and appealing to them? Some remarks made in here, if serious, just lifted BB's to a very respectable status in custom framing.

Discovering a new niche, Kathy's niche, with environment concerned customers from around 300 miles radius flocking to her door... Man, this is no longer a niche but the real thing!!! Good luck! Kathy will finally get rich and teach us that not her location but her concept was all the way wrong. Bob will then retract his heartily given advices and Goeltz will publicly ask for forgiveness...and turn to exclusive plastic frames himself
You made my day, Erik! Thank you!!! Didn't suspect you were so funny. ;)
CharleL's humor is also up and kicking. Hope Katy's too.
Cornel, you have not read my post properly. My customer had gone to quite a few local framing shops, she did not name them. She came to my shop, I called IN LINE OVALS, they came through for me.

Your apparent reference to this customers budget for this project was speculation on your part. However you are right, she was not interested in spending a thousand dollars on a frame for her fan.

Unlike you, this lady also was not being driven about in a Rolls Royce or some other high end automobile. I would even venture to guess that she does not even live in a guarded, gated community.

I know, I know, people like that are the scum of the earth and I should not even allow them in my shop. She had caught me at weak moment. I mean, why on earth would I want a three hundred dollar sale when I could have the chance to offer her a thousand dollar sale, then see her walk?

I honestly can not believe the elitist, snotty attitude of the responses on this thread. Who do you people think you are? You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Not every person can afford Munn or Cornell's fancy frames, does that mean that they should not have a frame at all? Give me a break, you people are unbelievable.

IN LINE OVALS may not put out the fanciest priciest product, but the put out a darn good product at a darn good price. If your shop is just to darn important to carry a line that is affordable to the average consumer, that is fine, your snotty, low life opinions are not.

Interesting how two people can read the same thread and come to completely different conclusions.

I saw lots of jabs at Cornel but none at Inline Ovals or JRB's customer (except maybe from Cornel.)

I guess everyone reads what they want to read.
Yeah Ron, I just sent a conciliatory email to JRB because he misunderstood big time. If I read it the way he interpreted it I feel really really bad. Surely JRB knows the lore of ILO on the G. He's gotta. He's just gotta.
I don't know Ron, it just looked like the same pissing contest I'm used to seeing everytime ILO becomes a subject.

It never will be resolved. Cornell will always take the High-End road and those who sell ILO will take the money from the happy customer and laugh their way to the bank, or at least the CC terminal.

I personally see that there is a large enough market for each that I really don't understand the pissing on each others shoes. ILO wouldn't be in business if there wasn't a demand, and neither would Cornell.

As for you Cornell, I can't afford the 6x9 ovals that I want either. So in all of my spare time, between Mani-Pedi appointments and my Roar-Shock treatments for my living rooms Feng Schway, I'll have to carve my own. Now where do I find Lime Wood???

John, glad they came through for you. We sell quite a bit of their glass, and an occational frame. Ok, so we sell a lot. But NOTHING like Kathy is going to do.

Baer, for the record, there is only one of us who becomes incontinent at the mere mention of ILO. To a fault too.
We sell low end, high end, and middle of the road. Every customer who is serious about framing their pictures get our undivided attention.

If you sold one ten dollar frame every day for a year, (six day week) that would add $3,120.00 to your gross sales for the year. I do not see all that much wrong with doing that.

Another way of looking at it is this. A little ol lady or man, who lives on a fixed retirement income comes into your shop. They make it clear that they can only spend a few dollars. You treat them like they are spending several thousand dollars, in other words, with respect.

They tell their children about how they where treated in your shop, they even tell their friends. How much have you earned by just being kind?

There are definitely people who want the absolute best and could care less what it is going to cost. These privileged folks are just a teeny bit outnumbered by people who want nice things and do care what they spend.

Then there are the folks who understand that nice things are a rare luxury and only can afford them rarely, if ever.

All these people can also be known as "customers". No matter what they spend in your shop, it is important money to you, if you can look beyond your cash register or your days volume.

A few days ago I sold a five thousand dollar framing order. That same day I sold several $49.95 poster specials. All three customers left my store happy, how about that?

I just received an e-mail from Kathy. I am sorry, I misread or misunderstood the intent of some of your posts. Please forgive me for dumping on you guys, guess I'm just getting old, and bitter, and even a little cranky. I will try to read a little slower before I fly off the handle in the future.


You refuse to understand my jokes as well as my real repulsion for plastic and surrogates. I am aware that world is full of surrogates, and there is a huge market for it, but that doesn’t oblige me to show respect to surrogate/kitch vendors and users. At the other end of that $20 plastic frame market I am sure there is no place left for custom framers anymore, unless you think that designing your own frame on the computer’s screen and clicking to buy it for 20 bucks is something too esoteric and adventurous for tomorrow businesses and frame consumers to dare. You know, John, not everybody is so candid as to try reading an e-mailed picture in NotePad.
I don't wanna make my money in that market though I'd be personally better off than today. You all promote plastic frames just in hope of immediate profit, but I doubt that any of you is so poorly tasted as to have plastic frames at home except perhaps in the bathroom. Any explanation of yours, and I heard them al, is limping. Plastic frames and finishes were and are yet far from what they try to replace. But price is good, same is the profit and Nona/the FACTS says nothing about polluting the Earth because of plastic frame industry. So, Eric is free to get ecstatic over saving regenerating wood, and use energy hungry, ever lasting, expensive to reconvert plastic frames instead. Hey, Eric, why don’t you dress up in polyester clothe and save the cotton?

Calling me an arrogant elitist for disliking plastic frames is no less than me calling you an elitist man for disliking silicon breast in women, or plastic denture, or nylon shirts, polyester sox and plastic chairs, plates and forks at home.
ILO just happens to use phony wood and this is my only objection to it, not price, design or finish, though all three are inherently tied and explained by it. Not to be forgotten, I am also desolated to see poor taste being offered as a custom service to our clients under the cover of a reasonable price/profit reasoning.

And, BTW, I doubt that your client walked around with that job and chose you because you were the only framer to think of ILO and save her some dough. Think at it.

I really hope we all resist acting like highschoolers again and have Ron choping off our posts or send this thread to the garbage can. I noticed he already used his scisors once today.
You all promote plastic frames just in hope of immediate profit
No, Cornel, we promote plastic frames - at least on this thread - in hopes of irritating you.

And then, wonder of wonders, you suggest that JRB doesn't get YOUR jokes.

I was using smiling faces until John came across abrasively. That showed that I understood and accepted you’re having fun on my account. My good neighbor Pat is always taking delight in bringing me into the ring. You see, at one point I was suspecting John's first post to be pocking at me with his two octaves higher than necessary ILO tune.
True, it takes plastic frames to get me up and fighting. So what? Enjoy it! This is the only instance I don't protest sadism ;) I am only sorry that John, whom I like and favor very much because he is reminding me of my father, does not get my jokes at all (just like my father;)). At one point I had promised him to use Italics when making light, frivolous comments. But Italics are too precious to abuse them like that, don't you agree with me?
Cornell makes a very high end frame, so does the Munn family, along with a few other companies. These frames fill, I would guess, under ten percent of our needs.

That is not because it is a bad product, it is because it is a very expensive product, that only a few people can afford. Much like the Rolls Royce I mentioned on an earlier post.

I wonder if the people at Rolls Royce publicly bad mouth those people over at Ford or General Motors? Or, perhaps they understand that their product and other products fill different needs for different budgets and tastes.

I know many very wealthy people who just plain can not stand the idea of spending more than a hundred dollars for a picture frame, even though they could easily afford to spend thousands.

These people just have this mind set that picture frames are not an important part of their lives, therefor, should not cost very much at all.

It does not mean they are bad, or stupid people, it just means they have a different attitude about our craft, than say, Cornell.

It makes me wonder though, when a young couple, who live on a military paycheck, whip out the old Visa card to pay for a twelve hundred dollar framing job of their wedding picture. I do in-fact, question their judgment, and intelligence.

I guess what I am saying is, there are many different products in our industry that fill many different demands. You can not size customers up and refuse to show them products because you think it may be to expensive or two cheap for them.

You show them what looks best on their picture. You let THEM tell you if they can afford it or not.

If I show one of Cornell's frames and it looks absolutely fantastic on the picture, in-fact it is perfect for it, the customer loves it, but opts for a ten dollar Fetco frame instead, should I throw water balloons at her as she leaves? Should I bad mouth her to other customers? perhaps post it on the Internet?

The price of our products can vary widely, as can the quality, and even the customers idea of what IS quality.

The above scenario did take place in my store. The woman honestly thought Cornell's frame was not up to the quality of the Fetco frame. I had told her you can not expose Cornell's frame to moisture. The Fetco frame can be wiped with a damp cloth, Cornell's can not.

I know Cornell's frame is much better than Fetco's, my customer thought the opposite, is she stupid?

Cornell's frames are a valuable contribution to our industry, they fill a need.

Fetco's frames are a valuable contribution to our industry, they also fill a need.

Surprisingly, IN LINE OVALS frames are also a valuable contribution to our industry, because they fill a need.

Non of these companies deserve to be bad mouthed, they deliver a good product at an appropriate price.

The only companies that deserve to be bad mouthed are the ones that have incompetence down to a science, they can not, or will not, keep their products in stock. They refuse to hire the needed staff to man their phones, or they sell worthless junk that has no need anywhere.

Don't give up hope, Ron, nobody is perfec but everyone is perfectible. Rarely is already better than never and there is yet plenty of room for improvements. Got the FACTS? ;)

Wow, I've just noticed that you're well over the 10 killo mark while I am merely scratching the 300 stone mark. Now I see what you ment by rarely... Even if you read, aproved and agreed with all my posts, I wouldn't solicit your attention but rarely, and it's impossible to agree more than once over somebody's saying. Now I got the FACTS. Anyway, we might disagree on speculations, but at last we agreed on FACTS. ;)

Yo, Ron, have a sunny day.
Dear John,

Watch out for you are closer than you think to become my fella ;)
If you insist a bit more on LaMarche ignoring to pick up or return costumers' phone calls, and failing to be consistent over their finishes, ta-ram-ta-ta-tammmm! there you are, ILO fixation redivivus!

I said ILO?! **** plastic all together!
Actually I must give them that their service is excellent just as you mentioned.

As of Rolls vs. Ford comparison of yours, no, I don't think Rolls people need to badmouth Ford. We The People are doing a pretty good job at it. And then nobody is pretending to get a Rolls for same price paid for a Ford car, the way grumblers wish to get Munn samples for free ;)

Of course, I sell to much less than 10% of the market and I am useful to that niche; naturally, ILO sells to over 90% of the market and they are indispensable to most framers. But what I'm saying, in few and harsh words, is that they compete in this market with a different product all together, which was researched and created exactly for one reason: to be cheap. If that's a valid trend, soon you'll be tempted with stamped out gilded cardboard frames. See?

Let me tell you all a secret. You may think that my product is expensive. It is, compared to what you are used to handle on a regular base. But compared to Munn and other domestic manufacturers, due to my qualified and less expensive labor force, my prices are just a fraction of Munn's. What does that tell you? It should tell you that I don't disrespect a fair competition and that I myself play on price lever. I sell my product well because I offer the real thing, same high quality for less, not a surrogate for less. I don't attempt to pervert my costumers to buy plastic, clay, plaster, foam or cardboard frames for less. I don't take that road (even Munn and APF had), against my better chances at making piles of money, for I am not strictly in money making business but frame-making-for-money business, as stupid as it sounds.

From where I stay things look differently and I think that if it doesn’t look and walk as a duck it isn’t one.
I might be disagreeable to many (and ultimately I might be wrong), but I think that going into framing business just because life there seams easy, phoning out operations, changing direction and product just because it’s profitable does not make one a custom framer, more than a tower controller is a pilot, not unless we admit that everything hanging on a wall with an image or even an artwork in it, a hollo(w)grame at the limit, we shal call a custom made frame.
Now this perspective might look to some as sheer arrogance, but it isn’t. It is merely their best line of defense. I DO understand framing of different qualities and price levels, just as I understand eating a hotdog and caviar. But don’t show me a piece of rubber (as Eric was praying for) and call it meat or frame for that matter.
Sorry to disagree with many, but I know that I make sense to some, and if one of you will next time hesitate before showing his client the very bottom frame his money can buy, then I feel rewarded for all the “enemies” I made myself in here over the last four years or so.

[ 09-12-2004, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: American Choice ]
The cost or quality of the frame have little consequence, it's the frame that enhances the picture the best that counts. The cost and quality is up to the customers taste and budget.

If the cardboard or plastic frame looks better than the hand carved gold leaf frame, then that is the correct frame, and visa versa.

I will take a good American hot dog over the finest Russian caviar any day or night of the week, but then, I prefer mystery meat on a bun to raw fish eggs on a cracker.

After all this hot air being expended, we decided to check them out at the show today - and picked up the line after talking with the friendly folks.

Our POS recently added a feature that lets it price the in-line oval product, as well as the mats and special glass. This was the main incentive we needed to start carrying the product.

Was American Choice at the show, too? I looked...

IMHO, clients don't shop around for framing because:
1. it's a pain to move about and spend time with a bunch of oil paintings, or even a poster, in hope to save a few bucks. After all, everybody's time and gas is worth something.
2. they are not able to remember and compare what is it that they've been shown and quoted in different shops, miles away from each other.
It is your own fear of losing an order that makes you ready to play even the least expensive tune into your clients' ears.
I bet that if you pull your 10% cheapest models off your walls your business will lose just a few orders, if any at all, and produce more money to you. Are you going to tell me that certain types of art work are simply going to be screaming for the least expensive plastic-plaster-foam-cardboard frames possible and that you feel compelled to be ready and get that client? Do you feel then equally obliged to be ready and get that possible client that may need Munn's most expensive frame? And what do you do about it for such samples can't be just stamped on and delivered for free? I mean it's easy to be design flexible and serviceable toward less and less expensive realm of framing. At the end of that slope custom framing as we know it is going to become history with today’s framers large contribution.


I got your allusion and here is how I put it.
It took 10 (ten) full yrs. and many thousand of frames until my best worker and student (much better student than I ever was) finally got to work with me without having me pointing at flaws and ask to have them corrected and never replicated again. This is more than the average life expectancy in the business of custom framing.

I have my artisans working painfully long hours in order to fulfill their orders and deliver them in time. My frames are TRULY hand made. Increasing my production capacity implies finding and hiring the right people today and, hopefully, brining them up to speed in the next few yrs. As my production capacity grows up a bit I bring in new clients, one by one (and I always pre-qualify and know up front who my next costumers will be). I have no extra production capacity left as to seek and pre-qualify new costumers at the show.

[ 09-12-2004, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: American Choice ]

Why is it that an intelligent man, as I know you are, insists on playing such childish games here lately? I have conversed with you on the Grumble and through email and have found you to be very well mannered and competent as a person and a craftsman. It amazes me that you would waste your time with such silly nonsense as you insist on bringing up regarding these other manufacturers when your product speaks for itself without comparison. Why is it that you feel compelled to condemn others who choose to use whatever brand or quality of product in their business if it doesn't conform to your quality of product? That just floors me!

I would expect a man of your experience and knowledge to be trying to educate others on the proper presentation of quality products such as you offer rather than insisting on belittling these other framers/manufacturers whose products or choices don't reach the level of craftsmanship as your product.

You disappoint me, Cornel. As you well know, I fancy a good discussion occasionally but I see no real discussion generated on this thread, only defensive catty remarks being thrown back and forth by you and those who feel the need to respond to you.

I really expected more from you.

Let's all lighten up here and think about this...

Why do they call the Inline samples "Corner" samples????
No matter how far I push the limits of ridiculousness, I guess I need the help of the gang :D ;)
to make sure that people know that a post is tongue-in-cheek.

I have no distain for ILO, nor will I go 'all plastic' ( relax CR :rolleyes: ) and yes, there is a market for most anything that comes down the line, and sooner or later our customers may look to us to provide it. That's part of what we do. We are not the purveyers of style to the world.

Cornel - Your passions are strong (and I do agree with them), but your logic and reasoning are not consistent; I also find them incoherent, but that's probably my shortcoming. :confused: It's all that saw dust from cutting real wood frames.
I am reporting a case of an individual who has developed the self-destructive habit of pulling and severely scraping hairs and debris out of the mucous membrane of his nasal cavities. We have proposed the term rhinotrichotillomania to emphasize the phenomenological overlapping between trichotillomania (TTM) and rhinotillexomania (RTM) exhibited by this case.

The main motivation behind this person's actions was a distressing preoccupation with an imaginary defect in his appearance, which constitutes the core characteristic of BDD. This person can be successfully treated with imipramine.
Why do they call the Inline samples "Corner" samples????
WE'RE the ones that call them corner samples. Inline calls them 'arc' samples. (Not to be confused with 'Ark' samples.)

Disagreement is the spirit of The Grumble but, if we can't refrain from personal attacks, this thread will disappear.

Then, a half-dozen of you will say, "Why'd ya do it, Ron?"
Cornel, you yourself claim your product is less than ten percent of the market. Then you tell me to remove the lowest ten percent from my display walls.

I guess your intent is that I replace that low end line, that sells all the time, with your high end line, that hardly ever sells.

I am like most frame shops, I prefer to show both, in an effort to get as many sales as I can.

I must admit, when I am taking my money to the bank, how awful I feel for doing it this way.

I put in a line of your ready made frames. I spent $750.00 on a brand new glass display case just to display your line of frames and to protect your product. The case is right next to my cash register.

I also, around the same time, put in a display rack of Fetco frames. The rack of shelves was put out by Fetco and it is on the left hand side of my store as you walk in. Your lighted display case is to the right as you walk in.

It is a well known fact that most people turn to the right when they enter a store. It is also a well known fact that people will look at items in lighted glass display cases at the cash register.

I only have around twenty or so of your frames, yet they put on a good show in that case. The case has mirrors in the back so it gives the impression of a huge selection. It's an eye catcher.

To fill the Fetco display shelves is around two hundred frames. Fetco frames are the exact frames that you describe, inexpensively produced in China. Can you explain why only five or six of your frames have sold, while I have re-filled the Fetco display four times? Could you also enlighten me as to how I could make more money carrying your frames over Fetco's?

Now it seems that you want me to do the same with my custom samples. You are suggesting that I toss the movers and replace them with the hardly ever sellers, is that correct?

I will continue to run my business the way I have always run it, I will continue to show my customers low end, high end, and every thing in between.

This strategy has let me live a fairly comfortable life for a retail shop owner. I do appreciate your input on how I can get even more comfortable, and I thank you.


Here is a framer who has put in a beautiful display for a beautiful line of frames. He is helping to "support" this vender. All he did was praise another vender here. I am sure he would have praised this vender as well.

I hope my "top seller" "high end vender" doesn't come on line here and badmouth anyone.

I can guarantee you he WILL NOT. He has just "too much class".
Almost every single class I took this weekend the teacher mentioned The Grumble. One teacher strongly encouraged participation. Threads like this would make me think twice before suggesting it if I were an industry leader. I would be scared that it would make me look like a jackass for suggesting that this banter is in anyway invaluable. I don’t recall anybody asking for a quality report on ILO however that’s what we get anytime the name is brought up. Its mind numbing!

I say for the sake of the instructor that recommended the grumble put this thing out of its misery! Embarrassing! I see one thing in common problem with some of these threads lately!
C'mon Jay, that's what it is supposed to be, banter.

The Grumble is nothing more than a large group of picture framers getting together on-line to fling the bull.

The Grumbles mission is not to provide the education or the money you need to run your business.

The Grumble gives you a place to communicate with your fellow framers about pretty much of anything you want to talk about, it lets you know you are not alone.

Cornel has as much a right to bitch about In Line Ovals as I have to defend them. This kind of thread is exactly what it is all about, a place to air our opinions.

There is no right or wrong, it's banter, that is all. It gives you a feel of how other framers feel about things around the world.

If I was instructing classes, I would make the same recommendation. All the other on line forums in our industry are way to tightly controlled to give you much of a feel for anything, other than the subject at hand.

Besides that, The Grumble is just plain fun. Where else can you unload your frustrations about your craft? I may not agree with Cornel, but I respect his right to say what he feels, and that is what it is all about.

I can not think of a better learning forum than The Grumble. If someone says something you do not agree with, it makes you really think about your position on the subject, doesn't it?

Originally posted by JRB:
The Grumble is nothing more than a large group of picture framers getting together on-line to fling the bull.


That is the reason why I love this place so much. If it was the 'everything is peachy and we are all perfect' forum Framer would have to change the name to HitchHickers or something like that.
I guess the thread will take a massive turn now but I think its for the better anyway!

I couldn’t agree with you more but I was asked this weekend why I don't participate in HH. I always read it but have never participated because I don't like the format and its way too impersonal. So as far as "banter" is concerned that is the very reason I like it here.

However the aggressive nature (I'll assume you know what I'm talking about) some threads take is unnecessary.

I had somebody from HH alluded to the fact that the Grumble made her somewhat uncomfortable because so many "get their heads bit off". Now why does a professional forum have to make people uncomfortable? I don't think it should.

This ain't Disneyland and I can handle it. You can’t make everybody happy all the time. But the more we scare off the more we suffer.
Yeah Jay, any instructor recommending the Grumble obviously participates and might have even been involved in a Grumble Rumble or two themselves. They are fully aware of the interactive nature of the Grumble. What makes the G unique is the interaction and dialogue. There are plenty of other boards where you can just post information if you don't care for the interaction. If we all agreed it wouldn't be a dicussion.

My plan is to never address these wild eyed statements that Cornel makes again. He has claimed his purpose is to get a rise out of all of us so I don't want to play into that again.

I just hope someday he realizes we are not the enemy. We are not changing the industry, we are changing with the industry. Not all people are looking for an experience. Not all people are looking for family heirlooms. Not all people want the best money can buy. To overlook those people would be foolish.

Not one person on this forum would deny that Cornel is a master of his craft. I would kill to have the clientel that just demanded that higher end item. We all would. But, I want to provide what that people want not just what I wish they wanted. If I can still offer a good product and keep my prices down I will.

Maybe Cornel will quit railing against us, we are not the enemy. He claims he only caters to 10% of the available frame shops. If he was in all our shops he would no longer be exclusive or unique, he would be ordinary. Plus, he would be faced with turning out more product at a faster rate which would mean sacrificing quality and then he would be farming out work to keep up and then before you know it he would be producing in China for cheap labor. His business is meant to be kept on a smaller unique level. There will always be a select group of people who want his product. Just as we hope there will always be a select group who wants our services. But the landscape is changing Cornel, for you as well as us, gotta adjust...............just quit blaming us.
I have stayed quiet for TOO long.

I have watched Cornel bad mouth, and lie about a good company. It is one thing to promote your own company by offering a well made product, and another thing by distroying your own reputation by lowering yourself to name calling.

In-Line-Ovals might have some Compo frames, but they also deal in REAL wood. They don't deal in plastic. AND, they will make custom frames.

In-Line-Ovals also carys the convex glass in the odd shapes that used to be popular. (As well as the frames to fit the odd shaped art.)

In-Line-Ovals has never been seen on this board bad mouthing any one!

Reputation alone... I'll buy from In-Line-Ovals any day.

It will be a sad, sad day when you see me buy from Cornel.
This is my 2,000th post