In Line Ovals came through for us!!!!(Bizarro Universe version)


PFG, Picture Framing God
Founding Member
Aug 12, 2000
San Diego, CA
We needed a unique shaped frame for a fan, our customer had gone everywhere, no one could, or would, bother to do it. A call to In Line Ovals took care of it. We received a beautiful gold leafed fan frame that was the exact size we needed. Our customer loved it. This frame was NOT in their line, they had to make it special. Thanks, In line Ovals.


[ 09-14-2004, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
Just another example of why In line Ovals are the only source you will ever need for oval frames!

(edit) Insert genuine tone.

[ 09-14-2004, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
Now you've done it, Kathy! Here comes Cornel.

Pat :D :D

(edit) This is a taunt. Please post accordingly.

[ 09-14-2004, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
Kathy is right. In Line Ovals, are all we ever needed for oval frames.

I would be surprised to learn that Kathy is using more than one manufacturer for all her needs for straight moldings. And rightfully so.

JBR, (edit)(That's actually JRB)

John, I am glad for your good experience with ILO.

I know of at least 4 alternative sources, one of which is located 20 minutes north from your shop, and they all all perfectly able to do that kind job for you next time.

Just out of courosity was this yours was a budget job? In such instances ILO may always be the good choice.

(edit for plesantness)

[ 09-14-2004, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
JRB, I was so impressed with your unbridled enthusiasm that I made the decision to carry only In Line Ovals. So I just spent the past few hours eliminating all my corner samples and replaced them with In line Ovals. I feel I have made the right decision and fully expect to turn the framing world on it's ears as I revolutionize the industry by selling only oval frames. Thanks very much for sharing your success.

My next step is to find the best source for plastic moulding where my customers can have the best of both worlds, truly extraordinary craftsmanship with the knowledge that the plastic is poured into a mold and handcrafted by artisans. Yup, plastic, lightweight, affordable and a dream to sell, only the best for my customers.

(edit) This is an extreme sarcasm. Please post accordingly.

[ 09-14-2004, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
You know, their samples are for free!
I just know I'm going to hate myself in the morning . . .

The full sample set is $175. There is a rebate available if you purchase at least $500 worth of Inline products within 12 months.

Kathy, I used to stock a very nice selection of plastic ovals, though we didn't call them plastic - they were Hydrorxyleneasbestosglucoseexcrement, or something similar.

People would hold one up and ask, "Is this wood?" and, of course, I'd say, "Sure. It comes from the Hydrorxyleneasbestosglucoseexcrement tree."
My only experience with them has been to buy replacement convex glass for those odd standard size (13 5/8 x 19 3/8) antique oval frames. For that I am grateful that they are around.


[ 09-14-2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
**** no, I refused to pay for them Ron. I told them they were now my exclusive line of mouldings so the chances were good I would be selling their line.

The beauty of my new concept is now all my frames will come in joined. I will no longer need to build or cut another frame. No more noise from the saw. No more glue on my fingers. Yeah, now that is what framing is all about. I'm waiting for the day that manufacurers can just "stamp" out a frame in any particular size, which will virtually eliminate the need for any tools. Why bother with all that decorative gobbledy gook. My hope is that it will be made out of the cheapest materials known to man so we can pass the savings on to our customers.....

(edit) This is even more extreme sarcasm. Please post accordingly.

[ 09-14-2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]

If you visit a Garden Ridge, or ACMoore, the future is here. The frames are stamped out of plastic and sell for $20 to $80 and they are selling them. Some of my customers have purchased them and they were very unhappy. :confused:

(edit) This is a person who read Kathy's post, and rose above the fray, and provided usefull information. Please post accordingly.

[ 09-14-2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
I, myself, was awakend from the comforting arms of sleep earlier by the sound of a diesel motor in my driveway. I leapt up to see who, or what it was, and much to my surprise
it was HUGE delivery van bringing me, at no charge. the entire line of IN LINE OVAL corner samples!

I couldn't believe it! I now must have their complete selection!! Not only that, but AT NO CHARGE!!!! The driver promised to bring me a full set of IN LINE OVALS weekly, AT NO CHARGE!!! It must be my lucky day!!!

(edit) This is over the top sarcasm. Please post accordingly.

[ 09-14-2004, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
Kathy - you have redefined niche marketing. Superb! The major players are sure to reposition themselves to take their share of this developing market trend.

The plastic frame market is huge. By not supporting the harvesting of poor defenseless trees, you will appeal to all of the environmental activists. I bet all the wealthy nature lovers for a 300 mile radius will flock to your shop. We're lucky to break the 30 mile radius with what we sell. Just don't tell the Enviro customers that you toss the cut off's into the garbage, it could be touchy with them.

But wait, I hear that there is a new company out of China that is making a bendable plastic moulding. Talk about perfect. You don't need to cut it! Forget chop and join. Just give me a piece of small radius pipe and I got finished corners. Man, am I excited. Speaking of that - did someone mention a new latex frame?

(edit) This is feeding on Kathy's sarcasm. Please post accordingly.

[ 09-14-2004, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
Discovering a new niche, Kathy's niche, with environment concerned customers from around 300 miles radius flocking to her door... Man, this is no longer a niche but the real thing!!! Good luck! Kathy will finally get rich and teach us that not her location but her concept was all the way wrong. Bob will then retract his heartily given advices and Goeltz (edit: that's Goltz)will publicly ask for forgiveness...and turn to exclusive plastic frames himself
You made my day,
(edit) This is a sarcastic response to sarcasm. Please post accordingly.

[ 09-14-2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
(edit) For those interested, hers is some more info on the project

My customer had gone to quite a few local framing shops. She eventually came to my shop, I called IN LINE OVALS, they came through for me.

A reference to this customers budget for this project was speculation, however she was not interested in spending a thousand dollars on a frame for her fan.

This lady also was not being driven about in a Rolls Royce or some other high end automobile. I would even venture to guess that she does not even live in a guarded, gated community.

IN LINE OVALS may not put out the fanciest priciest product, but they put out a darn good product at a darn good price.

(edit) Modified to purge inflamitory content)

[ 09-14-2004, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
John, glad they came through for you. We sell quite a bit of their glass, and an occational frame. Ok, so we sell a lot.

(edited to reomove fire-fueling drivel)

[ 09-14-2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
We sell low end, high end, and middle of the road. Every customer who is serious about framing their pictures get our undivided attention.

If you sold one ten dollar frame every day for a year, (six day week) that would add $3,120.00 to your gross sales for the year. I do not see all that much wrong with doing that.

Another way of looking at it is this. A little ol lady or man, who lives on a fixed retirement income comes into your shop. They make it clear that they can only spend a few dollars. You treat them like they are spending several thousand dollars, in other words, with respect.

They tell their children about how they where treated in your shop, they even tell their friends. How much have you earned by just being kind?

There are definitely people who want the absolute best and could care less what it is going to cost. These privileged folks are just a teeny bit outnumbered by people who want nice things and do care what they spend.

Then there are the folks who understand that nice things are a rare luxury and only can afford them rarely, if ever.

All these people can also be known as "customers". No matter what they spend in your shop, it is important money to you, if you can look beyond your cash register or your days volume.

A few days ago I sold a five thousand dollar framing order. That same day I sold several $49.95 poster specials. All three customers left my store happy, how about that?

I am aware that world is full of surrogates, and there is a huge market for it

I just don't wanna make my money in at the other end of that $20 plastic frame market.

But keep in mind, plastic frames and finishes were and are yet far from what they try to replace. But price is good, same for the profit

Plastic frames will save the environment as much as dressing up in polyester clothes. Save a dollar on the moulding, pay a high price in fashion. (slight edit)

Sure, I dislike plastic frames. No less than disliking silicon breast implants in women, or plastic dentures (on men, women or dogs), or nylon shirts (on men, women or dogs). For that matter, polyester socks and plastic chairs, plates and forks at home.

ILO does use synthetic materials and this is my only objection to it, not price, design or finish, though all three are inherently tied and explained by it.

I really hope we all resist acting like highschoolers (edit: kindergardenrs) again and have Ron choping off our posts or send this thread to the garbage can. I noticed he already used his scisors once today.

(edit: Ron's not the only one with the snips)

[ 09-14-2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
Cornell makes a very high end frame, so does the Munn family, along with a few other companies. These frames fill, I would guess, under ten percent of our needs.

That is not because it is a bad product, it is because it is a very expensive product, that only a few people can afford. Much like the Rolls Royce I mentioned on an earlier post.

I wonder if the people at Rolls Royce publicly bad mouth those people over at Ford or General Motors? Or, perhaps they understand that their product and other products fill different needs for different budgets and tastes.

I know many very wealthy people who just plain can not stand the idea of spending more than a hundred dollars for a picture frame, even though they could easily afford to spend thousands.

These people just have this mind set that picture frames are not an important part of their lives, therefor, should not cost very much at all.

It does not mean they are bad, or stupid people, it just means they have a different attitude about our craft, than say, Cornell.

It makes me wonder though, when a young couple, who live on a military paycheck, whip out the old Visa card to pay for a twelve hundred dollar framing job of their wedding picture. I do in-fact, question their judgment, and intelligence.

I guess what I am saying is, there are many different products in our industry that fill many different demands. You can not size customers up and refuse to show them products because you think it may be to expensive or two cheap for them.

You show them what looks best on their picture. You let THEM tell you if they can afford it or not.

If I show one of Cornell's frames and it looks absolutely fantastic on the picture, in-fact it is perfect for it, the customer loves it, but opts for a ten dollar Fetco frame instead, should I throw water balloons at her as she leaves? Should I bad mouth her to other customers? perhaps post it on the Internet?

The price of our products can vary widely, as can the quality, and even the customers idea of what IS quality.

The above scenario did take place in my store. The woman honestly thought Cornell's frame was not up to the quality of the Fetco frame. I had told her you can not expose Cornell's frame to moisture. The Fetco frame can be wiped with a damp cloth, Cornell's can not.

I know Cornell's frame is much better than Fetco's, my customer thought the opposite, is she stupid?

Cornell's frames are a valuable contribution to our industry, they fill a need.

Fetco's frames are a valuable contribution to our industry, they also fill a need.

Surprisingly, IN LINE OVALS frames are also a valuable contribution to our industry, because they fill a need.

Non of these companies deserve to be bad mouthed, they deliver a good product at an appropriate price.

The only companies that deserve to be bad mouthed are the ones that have incompetence down to a science, they can not, or will not, keep their products in stock. They refuse to hire the needed staff to man their phones, or they sell worthless junk that has no need anywhere.

Dear John,

I must give them that their service is excellent just as you mentioned.

As of Rolls vs. Ford comparison of yours, no, I don't think Rolls people need to badmouth Ford.

Of course, I sell to much less than 10% of the market and I am useful to that niche; naturally, ILO sells to over 90% of the market (edit: they serve)and they are indispensable to most framers (edit: for ovals). But what I'm saying, in few and harsh words, is that they compete in this market with a different product all together, which was researched and created exactly for one reason: to be cheap. If that's a valid trend, soon you'll be tempted with stamped out gilded cardboard frames.

[ 09-14-2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
The cost or quality of the frame have little consequence, it's the frame that enhances the picture the best that counts. The cost and quality is up to the customers taste and budget.

If the cardboard or plastic frame looks better than the hand carved gold leaf frame, then that is the correct frame, and visa versa.

I will take a good American hot dog over the finest Russian caviar any day or night of the week, but then, I prefer mystery meat on a bun to raw fish eggs on a cracker.

After all this hot air being expended, we decided to check them out at the show today - and picked up the line after talking with the friendly folks.

Our POS recently added a feature that lets it price the in-line oval product, as well as the mats and special glass. This was the main incentive we needed to start carrying the product.

[ 09-14-2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]

IMHO, clients don't shop around for framing because:
1. it's a pain to move about and spend time with a bunch of oil paintings, or even a poster, in hope to save a few bucks. After all, everybody's time and gas is worth something.
2. they are not able to remember and compare what is it that they've been shown and quoted in different shops, miles away from each other.
It is your own fear of losing an order that makes you ready to play even the least expensive tune into your clients' ears.
I bet that if you pull your 10% cheapest models off your walls your business will lose just a few orders, if any at all, and produce more money to you. Are you going to tell me that certain types of art work are simply going to be screaming for the least expensive plastic-plaster-foam-cardboard frames possible and that you feel compelled to be ready and get that client? Do you feel then equally obliged to be ready and get that possible client that may need Munn's most expensive frame? And what do you do about it for such samples can't be just stamped on and delivered for free? I mean it's easy to be design flexible and serviceable toward less and less expensive realm of framing.

[ 09-14-2004, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
Let's all lighten up here and think about this...

Why do they call the Inline samples "Corner" samples????
Yes, there is a market for most anything that comes down the line, and sooner or later our customers may look to us to provide it. That's part of what we do. We are not the purveyers of style to the world.

[ 09-14-2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
I am reporting a case of an individual who has developed the self-destructive habit of pulling and severely scraping hairs and debris out of the mucous membrane of his nasal cavities. We have proposed the term rhinotrichotillomania to emphasize the phenomenological overlapping between trichotillomania (TTM) and rhinotillexomania (RTM) exhibited by this case.

The main motivation behind this person's actions was a distressing preoccupation with an imaginary defect in his appearance, which constitutes the core characteristic of BDD. This person can be successfully treated with imipramine.

(edit: this is a digression and a side note. Please post accordingly)

[ 09-14-2004, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
Why do they call the Inline samples "Corner" samples????
WE'RE the ones that call them corner samples. Inline calls them 'arc' samples. (Not to be confused with 'Ark' samples.)

Disagreement is the spirit of The Grumble but, if we can't refrain from personal attacks, this thread will disappear.

Then, a half-dozen of you will say, "Why'd ya do it, Ron?"
Cornel, you yourself claim your product is less than ten percent of the market. Then you tell me to remove the lowest ten percent from my display walls.

I guess your intent is that I replace that low end line, that sells all the time, with your high end line, that hardly ever sells.

I am like most frame shops, I prefer to show both, in an effort to get as many sales as I can.

I must admit, when I am taking my money to the bank, how awful I feel for doing it this way.

I put in a line of your ready made frames. I spent $750.00 on a brand new glass display case just to display your line of frames and to protect your product. The case is right next to my cash register.

I also, around the same time, put in a display rack of Fetco frames. The rack of shelves was put out by Fetco and it is on the left hand side of my store as you walk in. Your lighted display case is to the right as you walk in.

It is a well known fact that most people turn to the right when they enter a store. It is also a well known fact that people will look at items in lighted glass display cases at the cash register.

I only have around twenty or so of your frames, yet they put on a good show in that case. The case has mirrors in the back so it gives the impression of a huge selection. It's an eye catcher.

To fill the Fetco display shelves is around two hundred frames. Fetco frames are the exact frames that you describe, inexpensively produced in China. Can you explain why only five or six of your frames have sold, while I have re-filled the Fetco display four times? Could you also enlighten me as to how I could make more money carrying your frames over Fetco's?

Now it seems that you want me to do the same with my custom samples. You are suggesting that I toss the movers and replace them with the hardly ever sellers, is that correct?

I will continue to run my business the way I have always run it, I will continue to show my customers low end, high end, and every thing in between.

This strategy has let me live a fairly comfortable life for a retail shop owner. I do appreciate your input on how I can get even more comfortable, and I thank you.

C'mon Jay, that's what it is supposed to be, banter.

(edit: in reference to a deleted post, sorry 'bout that.)

The Grumble is nothing more than a large group of picture framers getting together on-line to fling the bull.

The Grumbles mission is not to provide the education or the money you need to run your business.

The Grumble gives you a place to communicate with your fellow framers about pretty much of anything you want to talk about, it lets you know you are not alone.

Cornel has as much a right to bitch about In Line Ovals as I have to defend them. This kind of thread is exactly what it is all about, a place to air our opinions.

There is no right or wrong, it's banter, that is all. It gives you a feel of how other framers feel about things around the world.

If I was instructing classes, I would make the same recommendation. All the other on line forums in our industry are way to tightly controlled to give you much of a feel for anything, other than the subject at hand.

Besides that, The Grumble is just plain fun. Where else can you unload your frustrations about your craft? I may not agree with Cornel, but I respect his right to say what he feels, and that is what it is all about.

I can not think of a better learning forum than The Grumble. If someone says something you do not agree with, it makes you really think about your position on the subject, doesn't it?


[ 09-14-2004, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
Originally posted by JRB:
The Grumble is nothing more than a large group of picture framers getting together on-line to fling the bull.


That is the reason why I love this place so much. If it was the 'everything is peachy and we are all perfect' forum Framer would have to change the name to HitchHickers or something like that.
I guess the thread will take a massive turn now but I think its for the better anyway!

I couldn’t agree with you more but I was asked this weekend why I don't participate in HH. I always read it but have never participated because I don't like the format and its way too impersonal. So as far as "banter" is concerned that is the very reason I like it here.

However the aggressive nature (I'll assume you know what I'm talking about) some threads take is unnecessary.

I had somebody from HH alluded to the fact that the Grumble made her somewhat uncomfortable because so many "get their heads bit off". Now why does a professional forum have to make people uncomfortable? I don't think it should.

This ain't Disneyland and I can handle it. You can’t make everybody happy all the time. But the more we scare off the more we suffer.
Yeah Jay, any instructor recommending the Grumble obviously participates and might have even been involved in a Grumble Rumble or two themselves. They are fully aware of the interactive nature of the Grumble. What makes the G unique is the interaction and dialogue. There are plenty of other boards where you can just post information if you don't care for the interaction. If we all agreed it wouldn't be a dicussion.

We are changing with the industry. Not all people are looking for an experience. Not all people are looking for family heirlooms. Not all people want the best money can buy. To overlook those people would be foolish.

I would kill to have the clientel that just demanded that higher end item. We all would. But, I want to provide what that people want not just what I wish they wanted. If I can still offer a good product and keep my prices down I will.

[ 09-14-2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
In-Line-Ovals might have some Compo frames, but they also deal in REAL wood. They don't deal in plastic. AND, they will make custom frames.

In-Line-Ovals also carrys the convex glass in the odd shapes that used to be popular. (As well as the frames to fit the odd shaped art.)

Reputation alone... I'll buy from In-Line-Ovals any day.

[ 09-14-2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
There is no right or wrong, it's banter, that is all.
I respectfully disagree. There is 'wrong' when the disagreements turn to personal attacks. Hasn't quite happened on this thread yet, but we're walking a thin line.

All the other on line forums in our industry are way to tightly controlled to give you much of a feel for anything, other than the subject at hand.
The PPFA online exchange (HH) is pretty tightly moderated. With the email format, it has to be or it would quickly become overwhelming for everyone involved.

The other framers' forums I have visited are essentially unmoderated. Everyone is free to call anyone else any names they like and belittle and ridicule them 'til the cows come in. I don't think even you would enjoy them.

Besides that, The Grumble is just plain fun.
On that we can agree, John. In the interest of keeping it fun.

[ 09-14-2004, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
Originally posted by JRB:
This is my 2,000th post

What an auspicious moment JRB.......Congrats!

[ 09-14-2004, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
(The author of this post needs to be re-post it as a separate topic)

[ 09-14-2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
(Edit: The original author needs to insert content of this post into his new thread)

[ 09-14-2004, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Marc Lizer ]
Gosh everyone, I certainly am happy that you all totally agree with me that IN LINE OVALS is a great source for oval, round, and fan shaped frames and glass. I appreciate your input.

Marc, without doing a word-by-word comparison, can you please tell us the difference between the Bizarro Universe version and the original one? They look hauntingly similar to me.

It started out as a rare thread actually praising a vendor. That makes it a keeper, in my mind.

Then a whole bunch of people, including me, starting getting silly. Silliness turned to ugliness (and not just from Cornel) and a perfectly good post went down the toilet.

That's my recap, and it's the universe we DO live in - like it or not.
Yeah, what's your point? You indicated that my first post in this thread was sarcasm and honestly it wasn't. I do like ILO, I just recently got a catalogue and ordered a frame for a customer and they were happy. I did pipe in with a positive response just to back up what John said, being fully aware that Cornel would come along and implode.

For the record, all my other posts were complete unadulterated sarcasm directed at the assumptions that Cornel made towards me and my business, which by the way have been deleted from this thread. I felt sarcasm was a better approach than telling him off (self edit)

I wonder if ILO monitors this forum........

Refresh the thread.

Praise remains.

Silliness reamins.

Ugliness has beend moderated.

Even worhwhile side discussions remain.

This is the Stepford Grumble thread version.

But my question is this: Does The Grumble community want things sanitzed, and pretty-fied? Edited and re-configured?

I know what JRB's position will be on this.

I said slight sarcasm, only for the word "only" that was in your post.

I can change the edit to whatever you wish. This is after all, a thread where we will take out, modifiy, or alter all things that are inflamitory or otherwise just not right.

Is that what you/we want?

I'm sure there is a line between "Big Brother Grumble" , and "Free Market Grumble."

Do we know where it is?
That was kinda fun, Marc (except where you edited one or two of MY posts. ;) ) That had to be a lot of work for you.

I don't know the answer to your question. I'm not real comfortable in the roll of Grumble den mother. It would be really nice if everyone just moderated themselves.

It would also be really nice if gerbils weren't so promiscuous, but I guess the gerbils have a different perspective on that.
I think it is wrong to erase or edit by the moderators anything on the Grumble.

Certain people on the Grumble are jerks and it comes right across to the readers how they are. Or should I say who he is. Maybe that is to much of a hint who I mean.

But I do believe we are all adults and the censoring of some words automaticaly are fine like **** . But anything more is wrong.

I also think I will get interested in ILO. I think maybe at the last time a thread was erased, I think it was Jerry Ervin that said it best very classically I might add (sorry if it wasn't you Jerry) and then it was wrongfully zapped.
Originally posted by wcox:
I think it is wrong to erase or edit by the moderators anything on the Grumble. . . .
Just to play Devil's Advocate: if you mean anything then this should be changed to unmoderated board.

I'm sure there is some standard that you would feel deserves some form of moderation. Can you define the standard, and the level of moderation for each standard?
I applaud Marc's efforts to solicit opinions about what The Grumble should look like. I've asked the same question myself, but I wasn't specific-enough and everyone assumed my question was rhetorical.

And, in a sense, the question IS rhetorical. We all sometimes make the mistake of thinking The Grumble is a democracy - that we can vote on important issues and rule by majority.

In fact, The Grumble (and I know for sure that Marc knows this 'cause we've talked about it many times on the phone) is owned, lock, stock and barrel, by framer, our despotic, yet benevolent, administrator.

Framer chooses moderators (and a diverse, rag-tag collection we are) and gives us particular responsibilities and (thankfully) the means to carry them out.

I say "thankfully" because responsibility without authority is useless.

Perhaps a meaningful exercise would be for all the moderators to refrain from ANY moderating for, say, 30 days. Moderators may be surprised to see that life goes on and non-moderators may be equally surprised to learn that moderating has very little to do with deleting, editing or censoring. It's about keeping The Grumble flowing.

It wouldn't even cost $30 to find out.
"It would be really nice if everyone just moderated themselves."
Ron Eggers

Sometimes the best post is no post. Just let the topic die. Just think how you would feel if you said something and everybody ignored you.

I know this is best and should be the action or nonaction here, BUT, sometimes I have to say something!!!! If I know what I have to say would be offensive or hurtful I try to remember what my mother would tell me.

"If you can't say anything nice....." Mom.

My solution is to type a salutation and then click "Add Reply" I know the person understands and I can get on with my life.

I will demonstrate this technique in my next post. My post is in reference to the way my post was edited in this thread. Lets see Marc or Ron edit this next post.