Idea: Sevelon Picture Wire Using No Sleeves & It Works!!

ahohen

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I very recently (2 weeks before Christmas) started using the "Sevelon" Picture Wire with the "sleeves". I was losing too much time and $$$$. I came up with this idea. Try it. I put it through the test and it does work!

Instead of using the expensive "sleeves" or try to use ONLY eyescrews (which IS impossible with this type of wire), simply do the following:

This example is using a 30 lb. wire.... Instead of two eyescrews, use two 1/2" or longer #4 pan head phillips sheet metal screws.

#1: Drive the screws in at the same spots that you would put eyescrews.
#2: Remove the screws.
#3 Insert the ends of the wire into each of the wholes where the screws were.
#4 Final step: Replace the screws.

DONE. Try it! Doing this is just as strong, or stronger than using the "sleeves" (after squeezing the sleeves, sometimes i could see the wire slipping)! I also starting using this with the regular, more flexable type of wire.

(You probably ask: Why not just use an "ice pick" instead of driving screws in and out? If you use and ice pick, it would be extremely hard to drive it in hardwood. Even if you can drive it in, even in softwood, the hole the ice pick makes is too big for the screw. But, another way, of course of making a hole is to drill a small hole, but, be sure you don't go too deep and damage the moulding.)

Now, put it to the test...try it! It works... For added security, if you are in doubt, do the same as above, except before you drive the screws all the way back in add a small "washer". Now, insert the end of the wire back in the hole and drive it "almost" all the way in, wrap the wire once or twice around the screw (and under the washer) then continue driving the screw all the way in. (or, with or without a washer, bend the end of the wire about 1/2 inch from the end, doubling the amount of wire inserted in the hole)

Again, save time and money (sleeves are not cheep)and try this............
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[ 01-08-2006, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: ahohen ]
 

Rick Granick

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One limitation of the Sevalon system is the inability to adjust the slack in the wire for minor height changes during hanging. Seems like wrapping the wire a few times as you describe might get around this issue.
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Rick
 

ahohen

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McPhoto: "Wall-Buddies" most of the time cannot be used. Why? Many, many homes and buildings are built with "sheetrock on the studs", studs are either 16" or 24" from center to center. With wire hangers, all they have to do us find a stud to hand a frame. Using a wire hanger only requires ONE small hole in the wall, not two larger holes. ("Wall-Buddies" cost more than a couple of cents each! LOL....)
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by ahohen:
...With wire hangers, all they have to do us find a stud to hand a frame. Using a wire hanger only requires ONE small hole in the wall, not two larger holes. ("Wall-Buddies" cost more than a couple of cents each! LOL....)
ahohen, you may have found a great way to simplify wire installation. I haven't tried it yet, but I will. The advantages are obvious, and I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be at least as strong as using screw-eyes.

On the other hand, I haven't used screw-eyes for wiring frames in over five years. Adding to the attraction of your idea, my favorite black Infinity hangers are no longer being made.
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FACTS and PPFA guidelines recommend that frames be hung from two points on the wall. Check out the guideline at www.artfacts.org. For small frames -- up to 11"x14" let's say, a single wall hook may be more practical and provides plenty of support. But for larger frames, there are big advantages with two-point support:

A. Less stress on the frame; one-point support with a wire makes a relatively shallow angle of departure from the side rails, but two-point support can be arranged with a departure angle of at least 60 degrees. The closer the wire can be toward vertical as it leaves the frame, the less stress is imposed on the frame's corners.

B. Two-point support helps frames stay straight.

C. Two larger holes? No, two smaller hooks may be used instead of one larger hook. In any case, the difference of hole size in the wall is insignificant.

D. Why bother to locate a stud? Most frames weigh less than 30 lbs. and nearly all sheetrock walls would easily support that much weight on two properly-installed wall hooks. Heavier frames should have wall anchors.

E. Do the math. If:
* Your shop labor rate is over $50 per hour, and
* A wire/screw-eyes takes 2-1/2 minutes to screw & tie, and
* WallBuddies take one minute less labor time,
...then the installed cost of WallBuddies is less than the installed cost of a wire & screw-eyes.

There's no question that wire has the cheapest material cost, but WallBuddies have lower cost than wire/screw-eyes due to time savings. Using your idea for wire and screws alone would surely be faster, because there's no labor time to tie the wire ends.

That may be the most cost-effective hanging method yet. But it still should have two hanging points on the wall.
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Jay H

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I thought the hangers for wall buddies and even courtesy hangers were rated for sheetrock. At least I hope they are because my shop, most shops probably, have metal studs. 100% of my pictures are hangers into sheetrock.

I hate wallbuddies but thats a different topic. Does nobody use the 1,2, or 3 hole rings and wire? They can't take much longer than wallbuddies and are much cheaper.
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by Jay H:
...I hate wallbuddies but thats a different topic. Does nobody use the 1,2, or 3 hole rings and wire? They can't take much longer than wallbuddies and are much cheaper.
The cost advantage of WallBuddies is that they eliminate tying the wire ends. Labor time to do that is the biggest cost of wiring a frame, which far surpasses the cost of the materials.

Your new idea eliminates that cost, too, and that may be its finest attribute.

It may be unwise to "hate" any framing product. We all have our preferences, but it's good to realize that every framing method and material has some proper application...except masking tape, corrugated cardboard, and rubber cement, of course.
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Jay H

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Personally I love wallbuddies. I understand their function. Customers HATE them and that’s why I have learned to HATE them. Its just embarrassing that after a label and working demo of how the hanger works, you get a phone call about how to hang it. What’s worse is when they just bring it back and say, "take this off".

When we get down to a minute or two differences in labor, is there any real measurable cost difference?

This might be a totally different thread. No I’m certain it is, but why does labor come into play for every item we use in a frame package? It seems that our pricing is way to dynamic to be broke down like that. Some aspects of framing simply have to be reflective of the labor. Much of it doesn’t as best I can tell. Most hanging systems would fall into this category I would think.
 

ahohen

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Originally posted by Jim Miller:
ahohen, you may have found a great way to simplify wire installation. I haven't tried it yet, but I will. The advantages are obvious, and I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be at least as strong as using screw-eyes.

Jim Miller: I will be "probably" be ordering (samples are on their way) special screws from a company. They are called "wood screws", BUT the head of the screw is larger than usual (they are know as "button head" or "washer head" screws). Again, this will save time AND they are extremely inexpensive screws... IF i am reading the prices right. The 1/2" #6 wood screws: 1M/box only 1.95 or 22M/ctn only $42.00...i assume the "1M" stands for one thousand and the "22M" stand for 22 thousand). I will use these type of screws because it is sort of a "double insurance" when hanging larger/heavier frames (30 lbs.+...). On heavier (or even regular) frames, the screws will be (1)driven in all the way, (2)remove screws, (3)insert wire all the way in the screw hole (4) put the screws back in, BUT not all the way, then (5) wire will be wrapped around the screw once or more (twice would be more than enough) and then the screw will be driven in all the way. Also the advantage of doing this is if the wire is a wire is just a bit too long, wrap it more than once around the screw. (I tried this using 1" #8 screws AND washers
on a 1/4" mirror i framed. It weighed 76 lbs. so i used 100 lb. wire. I put extreme pull-stress on the wire until it broke, when it did, it broke between the two screws, not where it was attached to the frame.) I will keep y'all posted about the special screws. ajh
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by Jay H:
(about WallBuddies)...It's just embarrassing that after a label and working demo of how the hanger works, you get a phone call about how to hang it. What’s worse is when they just bring it back and say, "take this off".
If that happens, then you did not get the instructions across to the customer. We had that problem early on -- I think they tune out the words we spout while they're writing the check or gazing lovingly at their beautiful framing.

When we use the WallBuddies demo frame installed on the design table, customers' eyes light up and they say something like "Why didn't I think of that?" Then you know they understand. We do our WallBuddies demo as part of the frame design process, and then we review it for whomever picks up the finished framing.
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by Jay H:
...When we get down to a minute or two differences in labor, is there any real measurable cost difference?...

...why does labor come into play for every item we use in a frame package?...
Yes, a minute or two per frame does matter. If a frame shop builds 25 frames per week, that's 1,300 frames a year. Saving one minute per frame adds up to 21 hours saved per year. If a framer's cost (wages, plus taxes & other costs) amounts to $18 per hour, that's enough savings to pay for the WallBuddies on about 500 frames.

Right now somebody out there is thinking, "Heck, I waste more time than that every day." Yes, we all do, and that probably will continue, so I think it is irrelevent. But if you see some correlation between time wasted for fun and time saved in production, well, look at it this way: Now we can subsidize the time we waste.

Some expenditures are investments, not just money out of pocket. A v-nailer, a CMC, and WallBuddies represent expenses that yield handsome returns for those you choose to take advantage of them.

And if saving cost also results in better frame construction, and happier customers. I see that as a no-brainer-slam-dunk-signmeup.

Each of us decides our own priorities, but I think saving a minute on hardware, and 5 minutes on v-nailing, and 10 minutes on a CMC, for every frame I build, can add up to some pretty impressive dollars. At a real labor cost of $18, that's $4.80 per frame, or $6,200 a year.

I'll take it.
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Jay H

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A wallbuddy demo? Hmmm Yea I had never thought of that. I should have had a demo on the wall with a "blank" frame that showed how the system worked and explained it. Ohh that’s right I did.

That leaves only four options. One I'm a great big dumb stupid idiot. Two my customers are. Three we both are. Four its just an overly complicated way to hang a picture.

I think a wire works great on most things. Really wide narrow frames or just awkward frames get Wallbuddies. Everything else gets the wire. I'm gonna guess as long as that system has been around, it should work just fine most of the time.

Jim, I certainly don't mean to argue. Thats why I won't. I'm not smart enough. But I do know garbage math when I see it. "Investors" everywhere can show you how it's wise to refinance your house and put that money in investments. They will clearly show you how that borrowed money will work harder in investments than in equity. That sure doesn't help when you lose your house and your sitting on a pile of investments. Too many people have went down the bogus math game only to scratch their head and say "how did this happen to me."

This all over a hanger. Look at the top of this thread. He has described a 15 step method to cram a wire in a hole with a screw. You seem excited to try it. Well I'm a hard head and you will NEVER convince this is a second faster than wallbuddies or even wire. Nor will you convince me there any measurealbe difference in cost between wires and wallbuddies. But I do understand your point.

The reason I say its to dynamic is because when we get down to the fitting and small items, I'll bet many just tack on a charge. In my case its about $10. That includes wire, hanger, paper, bumpons, atg, trim and labor. I don't see how a mortal can figure the cost tape and labor. Then the cost of the paper and labor. Then the cost of trimming and labor. The hanger plus labor..............

At $10 its about 1000% proffit on some jobs and 100% on some.
 

ahohen

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Jay H. stated:

He has described a 15 step method to cram a wire in a hole with a screw. You seem excited to try it.

"15 step method to cram a wire in a hole with a screw"??? You better stick to whatever you use to hand a frame... i see you are getting quite confused.

(A cowboy has a horse. He goes to town on Friday, stays two days then comes back on Friday. How?)


(His horse's name is Friday....lol)

[ 01-13-2006, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: ahohen ]
 

Susan May

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In our shop, we use both wire, and Wall Buddies, depending on the size of the job. We then attach a bag with the Wall hooks, and instructions on the back.

The instructions tell the customer how far apart to put the TWO hooks (that we provide in the bag). If we use Wall Buddies, we take the customer over to a job that is hanging on the wal and show them EXACTLY how the hooks are used, and remind them that the note telling them how far apart to put the hooks is atached to the back of their Frame.

We have NEVER had anyone call and ask how to use the hooks, and most people bring in old frame jobs to be updated to the "New" Wall buddies.

Keep trying Jay, Wall Buddies are worth their price, because it FORCES the customer to use TWO hooks on their wall.
 

Val

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Okay, now I feel like a big stupid dumb idiot...what's a Wall Buddy?
 

ahohen

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It is stated that (related to "Wall Buddies") "Less stress on the frame; one-point support with a wire makes a relatively shallow angle of departure from the side rails, but two-point support can be arranged with a departure angle of at least 60 degrees. The closer the wire can be toward vertical as it leaves the frame, the less stress is imposed on the frame's corners.

What is the bid deal about having "less stress on the frame"??? When customers come in with old frames, they may want the matboard(s) changed and/or new glass because some kid threw a ball and broke it, or maybe they want a different frame because they have remodeled and want a different look, etc., etc. It was not because the frames are falling apart because they didn't have Wall Buddies! One fact i have always noticed is that the old frames jobs are usually in very good shape but sometimes badly damaged BECAUSE OF THE WAY THEY WERE HANDLED, NOT BECAUSE IT WAS HANGING FOR 50+- YEARS WITHOUT WALL BUDDIES! "FACTS and PPFA" guidelines, in my opinion don't know what they are talking about.
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Ron Eggers

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"FACTS and PPFA" guidelines, in my opinion don't know what they are talking about.
AJ, you probably shoulda quit while you were ahead.

You had what actually sounds like an interesting idea for some applications. This shouldn't have turned into a Wall Buddy thread, but I can't see any framer saying they don't want as many weapons in their arsenal as they can get.

I have at least a dozen different types of hangers I use, depending on the job. I'll probably try your idea some time, too.
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by ahohen:
....What is the bid deal about having "less stress on the frame"??? When customers come in with old frames...It was not because the frames are falling apart because they didn't have Wall Buddies!..."FACTS and PPFA" guidelines, in my opinion don't know what they are talking about.
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You're welcome to your opinion, but let's clear up one point: Neither PPFA nor FACTS endorse any particular brand of products. Neither group has any interest in promoting WallBuddies or any other hanging system.

The guidelines recommend two-point hanging, which may be accomplished with a wire at a steep angle, as well as WallBuddies or D-rings or another method.

So, are you rejecting all two-point hanging systems, or are you just rejecting WallBuddies?

Having "less stress on the frame" is important, because a picture frame's mitered corners do not withstand stress very well -- even slight stress has effects over time. An established principle of mechanical engineering is that anything under stress will eventually fail. More stress causes faster failure; less stress delays failure.

You mentioned old frames. If you look closely at most old frames, you can find some signs of mechanical stress. Have you never seen an old frame with failed glue joints? Sometimes the old glue fails and sometimes the wood fibers separate, but that is often a stress problem caused by wire tension pulling inward on the side rails. This is not rocket science.

A shallow wire angle also contributes to the problem of fasteners (screw-eyes, for example) loosening, as wire tension pulls inward, toward the rabbet, causing the wood grain to separate. Sometimes the fasteners actually pull out when the fastener is placed too close to the wood's edge, but using the recommended wire angle reduces tension on the fasteners in any case.

Reducing stress is not the only reason to use a two-point hanging system. Two wall hooks also keep the frame straight more easily, and are less likely to pull out of sheetrock than one wall hook. And if the frame is big, reaching behind each side to put the wire on two hooks is easier than reaching to the middle to put it on one hook.

It's good to question recommendations, and it's even better to look for new ways to do things. But why reject common sense benefits?
 

Bob Carter

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This "discussion" is entering that "my mom can beat up your mom" stage. We carry several hanging methods and use whatever WE think wisest.

That is unless the client has a preference, which seems never

But, I must tell you that we often get that call back also asking how to use these corner things. Instructions or not, it just doesn't seem to get to the person actually hanging

Most often, the husband picks it up, takes it home and we get that call from the wives that just seem to refuse to read the instructions (okay, okay that was a joke-but not untrue)

Jim-Whatever time we might save on the installation is often "consumed" in instructions. Not sure that is a good argument

Your last statement on the common sense thing ought to apply here, but only if followed by the CollinsTheory of Application-that, of course, use what you can....

We use several applications and don't spend much time worrying about those that might not appeal to us
 

Puppyraiser

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Just as a little suggestion, and not to continue to draw out this discussion of The Only Way To Hang Pictures, we draw a line on the dustcover between the two arrows on Wallbuddies, and write in the distance between them to the nearest half inch. Then we tell the customer to put the two hooks that distance apart. Haven't had any complaints yet...
 

McPhoto

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Mea Culpa -
I'm (almost) sorry I mentioned wallbuddies
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This thread is almost sounding like a Michael's bashing. :eek:

We started using wallbuddies after reading glowing recommendations about them here on TG. Granted, we don't use them on everything - mostly just on the larger (over 11x14) and heavier frames.

BTW Ellen - great idea!
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This "discussion" is entering that "my mom can beat up your mom" stage.
Hey Bob - your mother wears combat boots!

Na-Na-Na-Na-Nah

Please don't take offense, ahohen - we're all just a bunch of "Grumblers"
;)
 

Frank Larson

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OK, after reading all of this I feel compelled to jump in. I'm an art installer. I have hung literally 10's of thousands of pictures over the last 14 years. I've hung everything from a medalion the size of a 50¢ piece to a piece 5' tall and 24' long, weight wise everything from ounces to 400lbs or more. I have formed a few opinions.

Wallbuddies: Good system. Works on pretty much anything up to 40 x 60 and 30-40 lbs or so. On anything over 25 lbs. I tend to use Mollies instead of the enclosed hooks. Any failures I've had has been due to the Wallbuddy going between the hook and the wall instead of setting on the hook. I prevent this by putting a felt pad on the Wallbuddy which also prevents any marking on the wall. It also is harder to do groupings with wallbuddies as there is no way to adjust your picture up and down. Typical customers do have trouble understanding the why's and wherefore's of the system though. If we can make them understand conservation framing why is using 2 hooks so difficult?

Hook and Wire: Good system IF USED CORRECTLY. I don't care how you attach the wire to the frame just so that when I give it a big yank (and I WILL do this) it doesn't pull out of the frame or break. I prefer the wire to be attached to the frame about 1/4 to 1/3 down from the top and enough slack in the wire so it comes about 1-2" from the top, I used to put the wire so it extended above the piece so customers were forced to use 2 hooks but found they just rewired the piece, usually too tightly so I stopped doing that. The nice thing about wire is that you have some adjustability up and down, either loosen up the wire at the d-ring (I hate screweyes, they mark up the wall, use d-rings or infinity hangers o just screws as mentioned above) or even just stretch the wire a little. Jim covered the why of two hooks thoroughly above. Listen to him, he is right on the money. I always try to use 2 hooks. On smaller pieces (8x10) with wire or sawtooth hangers I'll use one hook or nail and some tacky putty on the bottom corners. When you only use one hook the piece constantly swings back and forth when people slam doors, bump against it, clean it, or whatever. I've even seen marks on the wall where the bottom corners have scraped the wall paint in arcs from sliding back and forth. I've had 2 hooks hold things level even through minor (is 6.8 minor?) earthquakes. I prefer the "Florette" style of hangers as they use finer but stiffer nails that go through even most plaster walls with little damage. I typically throw away those cheap 2¢ hooks most framers like to put on the back of their $400 frame jobs. Nearly every failure I've had with hook and wire is tracable to the fact the wire was strung too tight. I should point out that all but one (the first) of the failures happened when I jerk tested the wire, and there have been many.

D-Rings: On some larger or heavier pieces 2 large D-rings on either side of the frame work well. They need to be put on even distance down from the top and in about 1.5" from the outside edge if possible. This gives me the option of using 3 nail hangers, mollies or toggle style bolts. A modification of the system is to put 3-4" wire loops on the D-Rings. This allows putting the hook further in from the edge making it less noticable from the side of the frame. It also allows you to twist the wire to adjust one side up slightly if needed. Oh, and a pet peeve of mine is when someone uses 3 hole heavy duty D-Rings and attaches them to the frame with 3/8" #6 screws. They make screws in different sizes you know.

French Cleats: I use only for larger or heavier items i.e: mirrors, large shadow boxes and the like. For french cleats to work properly there should be a solid backing on the piece such as 1/4' plywood screwed to all 4 sides of the frame. This distributes the load so it isn't all on the top frame member. I've never had one fail.

I hope this clears up some misconceptions but I doubt it. What I have found is that when someone has been doing things one way for years they are afraid to change when something new, better, or just different comes along. They are afraid of being "wrong" all these years even though there usually is no solid right or wrong way just better or not as good.
 

Frank Larson

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Originally posted by ahohen:
Also the advantage of doing this is if the wire is a wire is just a bit too long, wrap it more than once around the screw. (I tried this using 1" #8 screws AND washers
on a 1/4" mirror i framed. It weighed 76 lbs. so i used 100 lb. wire. I put extreme pull-stress on the wire until it broke, when it did, it broke between the two screws, not where it was attached to the frame.) I will keep y'all posted about the special screws. ajh [/QB]
I would never, I REPEAT NEVER, use a wire on a piece of this weight. The wire WILL break. The amount of stress on this wire will depend on how tight you put it on but it can easily exceed 500 lbs. This is a perfect candidate for a french cleat. If this job has left the shop get it back before they hang it or you will be redoing it and having to pay for anything that gets damaged when it comes down, including any injuries.... and it will come down
 

ahohen

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Frank... When I use a 100 lb. wire on a frame weighing 76 lbs. you are saying "it can easily exceed 500 lbs."??? I have been in the framing business since 1982 and have NEVER in the past 24 years EVER had a frame returned because the wiring failed. Besides, if it "could or would" exceed 500 lbs., the 100 lb. wire would have to be increased 5 times (not just doubled) AND I would have to suggest to the customer to use a 1/2" X 3" lag bolt! Come on... I would have to use 100 lb. wire to hand a frame weithing only 20 lbs.? I really don't believe..............
 

Jay H

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Frank is referring to the tension of the wire exceeding 500# not the weight of the picture on the hook(s). This is all just high school math stuff. The tension on a wire is ½*weight/sine of the angle.

Imagine that your 75# picture was hung off two wires on each side rail. The weight each wire would be holding would be exactly 37 ½ # That’s is exactly what weight each Wallbuddy would be holding also.

The way we typically hang frames, the wire is much closer to 20 degrees when you use only one hanger.

In that case ½ * 75 / .342 = about 110#. I’m confident your 100# wire would hold that. But that is a lot of tension on the wire and the sides of your frame.

BUT if you take that wire and use two hangers and get the angle from each hook to 40 degrees it takes much of the tension off the wire. ½ 75# / .643 = about 59#. At this tension there’s no question your 100# wire would hold.

You can’t just take a 100# wire and hook it to a 75# frame back anyway you want and assume it will hold (or in a hole with a screw).

You wouldn’t likely make a big mistake like this on a 75# frame but you might on a 20# frame.

Let’s say that you accidentally send it out the door at 10 degrees with one hanger. Lets say its 50# wire. 20# * ½ / .174 = about 57#. That 20# frame has a 1” wide moulding on it. That baby is gonna bow badly. That is only if the wire doesn’t break first.

I don’t think Frank is accurate in that the wire could “easily” become 500#. But it IS possible. At 5 degrees the tension on the wire would be 431# and at 4 degrees it is 535#. I’m guessing you knew all this and made sure to either use wallbuddies or make certain that if the customer used 2 hangers spaced close to the rings to increase the angles and lower the tension on the wire. Right?
 

Frank Larson

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Originally posted by Jay H:
I don’t think Frank is accurate in that the wire could “easily” become 500#. But it IS possible. At 5 degrees the tension on the wire would be 431# and at 4 degrees it is 535#. I’m guessing you knew all this and made sure to either use wallbuddies or make certain that if the customer used 2 hangers spaced close to the rings to increase the angles and lower the tension on the wire. Right?
Jay H's math is on the money. Good job! If you search the archives you'll find where all this has been covered before.

OK, so I exagerated a little. So often I have seen framers pull the wire tight from side to side across the frame so "the picture will hang tighter to the wall" that I assume a worst case senario. But I will stick by my assessment that a 100# wire attached by a single screw per side will break. IF your customer uses both hooks you give them and IF they place them far enough apart for the best angle on the wire and IF they are gentle when cleaning the mirror and IF you don't live in an earthquake zone, you MAY be OK. Too many IF's for me. I guess my question is "Why take the risk?"
 

ahohen

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If i would apply a wire hanger to a 34 lb. frame using a 40 lb. wire at a 5 degree angle, you are saying the wire has a greater chance of breakage because of the added stress on the wire? Size "3" (30 lb.) wire has a "Minimum Breaking Strength" of 68 lbs... the "MAXIMUN PICTURE WEIGHT" is 30 lbs. No matter what angle is used when ataching the wire, the frame would still weigh 34 lbs... and would only need next size wire, which would be the 40lb. wire....
kaffeetrinker_2.gif


(To get technical about another subject... I have a 2005 Honda CRV and even though the Honda company states that the milage is about 26 highwway/22 city, i can travel well over 200 miles on a single gallon of gas!... How? By keep record of mileage traveled only downhill in a mountainous area... excluding the gas it sucks up going uphill! See? No matter how you look at it I still average about 26 highway/22 city... lol) :D

[ 01-18-2006, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: ahohen ]
 

Bill Henry-

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ahohen,

Even though it is not intuitive, Jay’s statements are correct. It is a branch of physics/mathematics involving vector analysis.

This is not a good analogy, and even though it, too, is not intuitive, a ten year old weakling can lift a 500 pound engine from a ‘68 Chevy using a block and tackle.
 

Bob Doyle

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Originally posted by ahohen:
--- have NEVER in the past 24 years EVER had a frame returned because the wiring failed. ---
I have repaired many a frame with the screw eyes pulled out. AND usually the reason is because the wire was too tight when installed. Not because the screw eyes gave, or that the wood rotted away.

BTW when a customer comes in with a "pulled out" screw eye I ask them to check their other pictures and frames for similar concerns. I tell them I'll give them a bulk deal to replace the wires on them all. It's cheaper than replace the glass on all their pictures, and they appreciate teh concern shown them.

FramerDave thanks for e-posting that schematic! Very enlightening!
 

ahohen

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"Holey" smoke! all you "artfacts" believers... I better wave a red flag and notify all my customers that started doing businesss with me way back in 1982 and warn them to either bring back all the frames with wire hangers before they break or remove the wire hanger and nail the frames to the wall with #16 finish nails (I will supply free of charge a quart of putty)!

Okay... enough is enough. I will stick to what i have been doing for the past 24 years. Bye. ajh

(IF IT ANI'T BROKE... DON'T FIX IT!)
 

Jay H

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I learned this from a rigger. When they lift beams, they attach chokers on each end of the beam. If they were to lift a 20' beam, they wouldn't use 25' chokers becuase the tension would be to tight and the rigging would fail. It doesn't matter that the "rating" for the chokers state that they should easily lift that load. They would use much longer chokers so that the angles on them would be more degrees and lessen the tension.

I'm not sure how we got off on this topic but it might be interesting to loop back around to the topic. Ahohen describes a method where we cram the wire into a hole and shoot a screw in behind it. Doesn't that compromise the integrity of the wire? After you do this, take the screw back out and look at the condition of the wire. I'm gonna guess it will be all freyed and cut into from the threads of the screw. This is bad and you can no longer go by the rating of the wire because you have just damaged it.

When you use rings the wire is only wrapped around the rings and its self. The wire is never damaged. Looping the wire through the rings also weakens the wire which is why it goes through the rings twice. I'm guessing it doesn't weaken the wire near as much as cuting half way through it with a screw thread.

If these things not be so, please tell me. But poking fun at what you don't understand is silly.
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by ahohen:
"Holey" smoke! all you "artfacts" believers... I better wave a red flag and notify all my customers that started doing businesss with me way back in 1982...(IF IT ANI'T BROKE... DON'T FIX IT!)
Following this FACTS guideline is good for framing -- there's no question about that. And installing a tight wire is bad for framing -- there's no question about that, either.

ahohen, if you think the FACTS guideline is wrong, let's hear your reasoning. On the other hand, if you have no argument against the physics of it, then it's never too late to start doing it right.

If you choose to ignore the better way and keep doing it your old way, simply because that's what you've been doing since 1982, then I respectfully suggest that you are making a mistake.

Framing technology, like all other technology, changes over time, as practitioners learn and progress. Most of us are learning and progressing. What's holding you back on this?

You have proven that you are open to new ways, by starting this thread about your new wiring method. And by the way, I still agree with you that it may be a great idea. Your refusal to accept proven arithmetic is inconsistent with your imaginative innovation. What's up with that?

[ 01-18-2006, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Jim Miller ]
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by Jay H:
...Ahohen describes a method where we cram the wire into a hole and shoot a screw in behind it. Doesn't that compromise the integrity of the wire? After you do this, take the screw back out and look at the condition of the wire. I'm gonna guess it will be all freyed and cut into from the threads of the screw. This is bad and you can no longer go by the rating of the wire because you have just damaged it...
Jay, your kind of critical thinking is important to evaluating new things such as ahohen's wiring idea. So, let's consider what's going on in the hole, as you suggest.

I agree that the screw threads would at least kink the wire, which would be good for holding it, if that doesn't weaken it. The wood would compress as the wire is forced into it by the threads, which probably would lessen the damage.

The kind of wire may be most important here. I use stainless steel (Sofstrand or United's equal brand), and I am somewhat confident that the wire would withstand the torture of the threads without losing much of its useful strength. I have a test piece under tension now -- we'll see how it looks after Las Vegas.

On the other hand, I guess it would significantly weaken aluminum wire, because aluminum is terribly soft. Right off the bat, I'd suggest not using aluminum wire this way.

I do not use ahohen's Sevelon, but as I recall, it is a stiff, steel wire of fewer-than-usual strands, coated with plastic. Is that correct? If so, then it probably would be OK, too. However, the coating may be shield the wire from the threads, and if the wire inside could flow out, that could be a bad thing.

ahohen suggested using a button-head screw or a washer on an ordinary screw, and wrapping the wire around it a few times at each end, then driving the screw tight.

In that case, the wire wraps would be compressed between two flat, smooth surfaces (the wood and the screw head/washer), which should embed the wire into the wood and help to hold it. I think that alone would withstand significant tension, which might mean the wire end in the hole would suffer little or no stress.

Also, stamped-steel hardware such as SuperSteel, Infinity, and other brands have relatively sharp edges, compared to the roundness of a screweye. So, if kinking/cutting of the wire were a problem, that's where it should show up, under full tension.

Other thoughts?
 

wpfay

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How about galvanic reaction between the metal of the wire and that of the screw? Would a stainless screw be advisable?
Is the hole pre-drilled to avoid splitting of the wood fiber?
The Sevalon System was originally used to make leaders for big game fishing. I saw it in the bait stores locally long before it was ever touted as a system for hanging artwork. Not that it can't be used in the application, but there are other systems that have been designed specifically for hanging pictures that accomodate the dynamics of the task with greater efficiency.
I have an option to watch Jeopardy now, so buh-bye.
 

Jay H

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I agree Jim, as long as you can confirm that the wire isn't totally destroyed. I envision that the wire will mash and spread and cut as the screw drives in.

I have another problem that I will have a hard time verbalizing so bear with me.

The section of wire closest to the top of the hole has to withstand the entire length of the screw as you drive it. In other words the every inch of thread has an opportunity to slice and dice the wire passes that bit of wire. That edge also has the least wood/screw surface area to hold if the wire’s integrity is in fact compromised. Does this make any sense at all?

Over all here is my biggest problem with this method. You just don't know what the condition of the wire is after the screw is driven. You just don't know! Wrapping it around a screw with a washer doesn't help this either. Your still left with a method that involves mashing, cramming, flattening, wedging, and hiding the finished product. When you use rings, 100% of the time you can visually see the wire isn't damaged. It’s for this reason I NEVER understood why framers used barrel type connectors that you mash down onto the wire.

There would have to be a really good reason before I would employ a method that may be potentially damaging the wire, then concealing that damage. If time or money isn't saved with this new method (and its not), I don't see what the risk is for? I mean do we really need another way to hang a picture just for the sake of doing it differently?

I must also ask......how deep are these hole? Are you hanging 15 and 20# frames off of 3/8" holes with a wire crammed in it? No sir, not out of my shop!
 

ahohen

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Wow! The majority of framers have been defying the laws of physics! We have been using a 30 lb wire (Maximum Picture Weight)to hang 15 to 30 lb. frames for over 50 years and they are still hanging! (No, this is NOT my "opinion" ... it is a FACT!)


(You enter the laboratory and see an experiment.
How will you know which class is it?
If it's green and wiggles, it's biology.
If it stinks, it's chemistry.
If it does or doesn't work, it's physics.)

[ 01-19-2006, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: ahohen ]
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by ahohen:
...We have been using a 30 lb wire (Maximum Picture Weight)to hang 15 to 30 lb. frames for over 50 years and they are still hanging!...
Some frames with wires are NOT still hanging. At least one frame a month comes into my shop that has some problem with the hanging system. It is often the customer's problem, such as using a brad in the wall instead of a hook designed for the purpose.

How do you know all of the frames you have built are still hanging? If one of your frames falls off the wall, might not a customer may be inclined to take it somewhere else to be fixed, instead of bringing it back to the perpetrator?

Anyway, hanging systems on some frames fail, and many of us know from personal experience that wire failures are often related to the stress of hanging. If improving your method -- at no extra cost, using the same materials and labor -- could possibly reduce the failure rate from 6 per decade to 1 per decade, why reject it?

ahohen, you wax poetic about how your way has worked for years, but you still have not given one reason why you think your way is better than the FACTS-recommended wire angle.

Indeed, what is your way? Wire pulled tight?
 

Phoneguy

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I printed out Framer Dave's diagrams. Now if a customer asks why I give them two hooks I will show them the picture. Any chance of you emailing me the picture or the source Dave?

Thanks

James
 

Phoneguy

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Now to throw a curve ball. Force is measured in Newtons. Force = Mass x acceleration. Acceleration is accepted to be 9.8m/sec squared...gravity for the earth. We are assuming that one is not in a moving vehicle, that it is sitting/hanging "still". Mass is the weight measured in kg.

I cannot remember, but I believe the hooks state a weight they can hold, not a force.....

This, of course ignores the vectors issue, but the principle is the same.....

Now, if the diagram only uses the word force to differentiate from weight for clarity?

The reason I bring this up is because I showed the diagrams to a co-worker who tends to be way to analytical, and he pointed out that really force and weight, while being related, is like comparing oranges to apples, they are both fruit!

James
 

Phoneguy

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Originally posted by Phoneguy Canuck:
Now to throw a curve ball. Force is measured in Newtons. Force = Mass x acceleration. Acceleration is accepted to be 9.8m/sec squared...gravity for the earth. We are assuming that one is not in a moving vehicle, that it is sitting/hanging "still". Mass is the weight measured in kg.

I cannot remember, but I believe the hooks state a weight they can hold, not a force.....

This, of course ignores the vectors issue, but the principle is the same.....

Now, if the diagram only uses the word force to differentiate from weight for clarity?

The reason I bring this up is because I showed the diagrams to a co-worker who tends to be way to analytical, and he pointed out that really force and weight, while being related, is like comparing oranges to apples, they are both fruit!

James
Oh, and thanks for the link Dave. I copied the picture, put it into a business card template for Word, one side has the single hook diagram, the other has the double hook diagram. I may insert one in each poly bag of double hooks that I hand out!
 

Jay H

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In physics you use "weight" to describe a certain type of force. In this case weight is limited to the force due to the attraction of gravity.

Spring scales do measure force. Lets just assume that, in the chart, the weight was measured on a spring scale and not a balance type scale.

I figure we might as well develop a standard because the laws of physics do seem to very drastically depending on where you are located and your years of experience.

Oh by the way this is a good candidate for "beating a dead horse" category.
 

Doug Gemmell

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One more whack to the horse...While I firmly believe in using 2 hooks for most pieces and a proper angle to the wire, I cannot believe that the formula 1/2 weight divided by sine of stated angle is applicable to pounds of pull on the hanger, which is what we here are concerned with.

I could not give the diagram to a customer because they would think I was nuts if I claimed that these forces apply to their project. I would not put the wire at 2 degrees but a 10 lb. frame exerting 143 lbs. per hanger....right. :confused:
 
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