"I Told You So!" charge??

[Val]

Bought her posters at art.com. Can I beat their framing prices? Nope. Not and do a good job. Discount if she pays in cash? Nope. Discount since she's "letting" me frame it rather than Art.com? Nope.

So, she decides to "let" me frame it and 3 others like it, since I framed other stuff for her in the past (more art.com posters) and she really liked them. Insists on a "really wide" yellow single (to save $$) mat to go with her yellow walls and make the posters bigger, to "make a statement". (Oh, they'll make a statement, allright...biting my tongue..Ow-ouch!) I try to tell her it will disappear on that wall, that's a lot of yellow. Monet-like poppies poster. Ick. She insists.

She comes in with husband to pick one up 3 others waiting for more moulding. First thing Husband says "Wow, that's a really wide yellow mat, that's gonna disappear on that wall!" (I'm not saying a thing....Ow!)

Decides to take it home anyway, think about it, might bring it back for a second, darker mat. Company coming tonight, an artist friend. "She'll tell us what it needs". He carries it out. She comes back in and whispers "If my artist friend says it's too big, can you cut down that frame?" (there are 3 more like it in back, mats already cut) Yes, for a charge. "You're gonna charge me just to cut down a frame??"... "Yes, I am. We talked about that wide yellow mat, remember?"

My tongue hurts. Had to bite it really hard to keep from telling her it was an "I told you so!!" charge!! Owie-Ow!
.
.

 

[ammo_ozzie]

Val, I have a few customers like that. They come in, want a huge bright mat to "match" their walls and furniture. I try to tell them it will disappear but they dont listen. They tell me that the shiny black frame will make it "pop". A couple days after they pick it up, they ask me to change the mat or add another one and I tell them it will be another mat charge, fit up, and if they are a real pain in my butt, a take art out charge. They laugh and say I will go somewhere else. Im laughing cuz I know they will be back. Sure enough, they come back and say "I will LET you do it". I ask them what they want and they say my fav saying...you pick it, just make it look good. WOOHOO here we go. So another week goes by and they pick it up and to their surprise, call me when they get home to say "You were right". I know about the biting the tongue thing and I think I need a new one..any surgeons around???

 

[Paul N]

Stick to your guns Val!

A PIA charge by any other name....

I had a few people bring me a beat up old frame to cut down and make a smaller frame.....I tell them it will cost them as much as a new frame....even more; and after I deliver a little presentation as to why, they finally see the light!

Yesterday a customer picked up her 5 CC frames with 1 1/2 inch mat border each! She insisted on 1 inch and I had to twist her arm to finally accept 1 1/2.

Today her neighbor stopped by to say how much both liked the new look....:kaffeetrinker_2:

Whatever makes them happy.

 

[PaulSF]

OMG, she sprung for 5 closed corner frames, but still wanted a 1 inch mat????

I don't know if I should laugh or cry. I think I'll go out for a quesadilla, instead.

 

[Paul N]

PaulSF:

She was not trying to save money. She really wanted to re-frame those pieces - they were originally in regular frames with 3" mats. But she hated the "large" look!

And, she's on cloud # 9 now with the 1 1/2 borders!

 

[Val]

I forgot to add, that, since I haven't yet figured out how to get the camera hooked up for FrameVue, she decided she would come around the other side of my counter and go to Art.com's "visualization program". I thought, "this oughta be interesting".....and she decided that their version was exactly what she wanted.....big wide yellow mat on that yellow background....."Wow!", she says, "That's gonna look sooo good!" Art.com's picture is about 2 inches square.....heh-heh. I kept trying to tell her that's a 2-inch picture and your poster is a 3-foot one.....gonna be different! Nope, she wants what she wants what she wants.

Will be interesting to see what her "artist friend" has to say....

 

[Kirstie]

Wall color

I used If visualization 3 times today and once added the customer's wall color. Similar situation, but nice customer. We immediately chose a darker mat. And smaller margins, oops, oh well.

Val, it must be hard for you do get all your new purchases hoked up and running in a one person shop. I am in awe of all you get done! I was really anxious after WCAF anticipating all the new technology in the shop and wondering how we were going to get it all up and running, and I had talented staff to help me! I love it all, BTW!

 

[artfolio]

Will be interesting to see what her "artist friend" has to say....[/QUOTE]

If said artist is anything like Australian artists he/she will say: "You need a wide white or off-white matt and a half-round limewashed or raw timber frame which won't take away from the artwork"

Seriously, I cringe when anyone suggests consulting an artist or artistic friend because I know my job just got twice as hard.

 

[Val]

HELP!!!

Val, it must be hard for you do get all your new purchases hoked up and running in a one person shop.

Kirstie, I haven't! I wish I had someone who could just come in and hook the darn thing (FrameVue) up for me, show me a couple things and let me have at it. It just kills me to have the camera sitting under the counter in it's box, and not be able to use it! Everyday someone says "I just can't visualize that", and I just about implode!

I've read and read and read here, and I'm just not a read-and-learn kinda gal, I have to be shown! A friend of mine in Reno who attended classes at WCAF got IF, and just started using his Lifesaver last week, but he's too busy with his own shop to come in and help me set mine up....I offered to "rent" him for an afternoon, but he can't get away.

I need help with this stuff!!!


There.....I finally said it.

I finally got all the sales aids from Digital Custom Imaging and hope to start using that soon, when I figure Lifesaver out. I've been sticking my toe into LS a lot recently, doing the order the "old way" first, then "practice" putting it into LS later and see how it compares. Surprisingly, it is very close, with LS often a bit lower than my price chart, because it's figuring sales tax on materials only (I checked with my accountant, his recommendation, and the Sales Tax people....I've been paying waaaay too much sales tax -on the entire ticket - last year, that's changed as of this month) I actually entered two orders and saved and printed them last week, so I'm getting closer to the lurch off the fence. I have many, many questions, and unfortunately I'm just frozen....it's scary!

I put away my straightline mat cutter, and use the Wiz full time, pretty much have from day 1. I'm getting better at it, trial and error, thankful I've been a matbd scrap hoarder, but looking forward to learning more on that.....I've just barely scratched the surface.

Honestly, I'm not getting a lot of sleep these days....thinking and dreaming about all the tools I have (paid for!) and can't quite figure out just yet. I feel like such a dinosaur, still!!

Kirstie, may I borrow or "rent" someone from your shop for a day or 2? Carson City isn't that far away from Berkley! I just need some help here.

 

[Amy McCray]

Would it be possible for you to zip over to Reno and have them show you how they did theirs? Then you could at least get started on yours and perhaps fine tune with a telephone walk-through if you get stuck.

 

[Val]

I may have to, but getting out of my own shop is....oh wait!! They're open on Sundays and I'm not!! Now there's an idea, Amy!

But he has Integrated Framer and I have FrameVue. I wonder how if they're similar enough not to get me even more confused?? (not hard to do, right now! Ha!) Think I'll start a new thread.....here I go.

 

[Rick Granick]

"You're gonna charge me just to cut down a frame??"... "Yes, I am. We talked about that wide yellow mat, remember?"

What's so difficult for people to understand about the concept
more work = more money ?

:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick

(Try working with a graphic design studio and see if any and all changes don't cost more money...)

 

[Jim Miller]

Val, you can do that imaging thing all by yourself. It's not rocket science, you just have to take it one step at a time. Speaking of steps, maybe you can get Wonderful Husband to do the ladder stuff. How are your new hips doing, by the way?

1. Mount camera above design table. 4 feet would be my suggested minmum; mine is on the 12 foot ceiling, which puts it about 8 feet above the table.

2. Get electricity to the camera. If you do not have an outlet within a few feet, maybe you could run an extension cord. Be careful, though. Some municipalities require hard-wiring in some places, such as above the ceiling.

3. Connect the camera to a USB port on your computer. If the distance is more than about 15 feet, you might need a powered USB connector. Mike Labbe knows all about those. I use two 10 ft. ordinary USB extension cords, and it works OK, but I've been told I'm just lucky.

4. Install the software. It will probably find the camera. Or, if it does not, you will then have some really good questions to post.

 

[Val]

Thank you Jim. If I could do all that "all by myself", it would be done by now. Hips are doing well, knees suck, but nevertheless, climb-on-the-counter-or-ladder days are behind me now. I tried. Got up on the counter....got stuck. Verrrry embarrassing. Thank goodness for the mailman. Don't want to talk about that part anymore...

Mount the camera is the challenge. False ceilings with tiny little bars of aluminum, but Former Electrician Wonderful Husband says "no Problem"...USB cords and power sources and all that...I'm printing all this and taking notes. Gotta get this done!!!

P.S. The Gemini acrylic case for violin #2 came in......now, that has my attention!!! All this techno stuff can wait....Expect a panic-sticken e-mail about that soon!

 

[PaulSF]

Val, stick the camera on a tripod and place it on your design table. At least until you can get a more permanent setup.

That's what I do with my IF, because I just didn't feel like spending thousands of dollars mounting it on the ceiling and running new cabling, right after spending tens of thousands of dollars doing the buildout for my store. I put the camera on a $20 tripod on my design table when I need it, and when I don't need it I keep it under the design table. By the way, I do all my designing on my wall, because that's how people look at art.

And if you don't have time to get a tripod, which I can TOTALLY relate to, just hold the camera in your hands and take the picture.

Practice with this when you don't have a customer in the shop, and you aren't working on getting an order out the door. Make time to practice -- you want to be pretty comfortable with how it works before you try it with a customer. The perfect time is later in the afternoon, when you are too tired to do framing.

 

[Kirstie]

Kirstie, may I borrow or "rent" someone from your shop for a day or 2? Carson City isn't that far away from Berkley! I just need some help here.[/QUOTE]

VAL Come to Berkeley and I'll have one of my expert framers show you what you need to know on the Wiz. We're open 7 days a week.

As soon as I get this party done, I'll have more time to learn myself. Party is a new topic.

 

[Kirstie]

Paul, how on earth do you use IF with a tripod? When I used the tripod for IF experiments before we mounted it on the trac, the legs of the tripod kept getting in the way. Seems like you'd need a boom. I think Val should just have hubby mount the thing.

 

[Kirstie]

Thank you Jim. If I could do all that "all by myself", it would be done by now. Hips are doing well, knees suck, but nevertheless, climb-on-the-counter-or-ladder days are behind me now. I tried. Got up on the counter....got stuck. Verrrry embarrassing. Thank goodness for the mailman. Don't want to talk about that part anymore...

LOL, Val, but not really. I have arthritic knees and getting down from the design table was not what it was 30 years ago. Thank goodness for cortisone and Celebrex.

Mount the camera is the challenge. False ceilings with tiny little bars of aluminum, but Former Electrician Wonderful Husband says "no Problem"...USB cords and power sources and all that...I'm printing all this and taking notes. Gotta get this done!!!

Ah, Panavise sell a celiling mount especially for those cross bars in drop ceilings. It just hooks on. check it out.

 

[Kirstie]

Camera mounts

Source for ceiling mounts by Panavise. We used this one which swivels and allows the camera to face DOWN.

Source for drop ceiling rail attachments for camera This kit seems to have all the mounts in one.

I think I bought both of these kits and used the pieces we needed.

 

[PaulSF]

Kirstie, I'm aiming the camera at the wall, not down at the tabletop.

 

[Kirstie]

Kirstie, I'm aiming the camera at the wall, not down at the tabletop.

So you are designing on the wall: Magnets? Velcro? Paper clips?
I've read about these systems but forget how you hold everything up.

 

[PaulSF]

Big magnet board. I used it for everything except pieces that are already in frames or on stretcher bars, in which case it goes on an easel.

 

[Framar]

So, Paul, does that mean you have magnets attached to all of your frame and mat samples???

 

[PaulSF]

No, I have a bunch of magnets that stay on my design board. They hold the artwork in place, as well as the mats. They can hold the moulding in place, too, but I prefer to use my hands there, to prevent the moulding from slipping free and scratching or tearing the artwork.

 

[Framar]

OK - I am not getting this - how can magnets hold moulding???

Big magnets?

Powerful magnets?

Big, powerful magnets?

 

[Val]

Earth Magnets probably could if there was a little metal strip taped temporarily to the back of the moulding corner. Those little things are powerful!!

Moulding, metal strip, earth magnet, magnet board.....I can see that!

A few minutes ago I did a design for a poster... we propped a matboad on an easel and taped (she brought her own blue painters tape!) the poster to it, and I held the matbd and frame corner on by hand....cramp!! That magnet board sounds like a good idea to me right now.

 

[PaulSF]

Magnets are attracted to metal, right? So imagine a metal design board. Then imagine very strong magnets that will hold things against that metal. And they fit inside the rabbet of a frame sample, so I just put a magnet or two in place, and then rest the frame rabbet on the magnets. Voila!

 

[Val]

Update on "I told you so Lady". She and her husband brought it back this morning. Artist friend told her "You should have listened to your framer, she was right" (neener-neener-neener!!). And she even admitted she should've listened to me, but she was just trying to save money. Husband agreed.

We're adding two more mats to the existing one, on all four pieces. No cutting down of frames.

I brought my camera tripod in today, and going to the camera store (locally owned and operated!) for Jim-the-camera-expert to help me find the cables I need and get this going.

In this case, we had a visualization program (Art.com's.....better than nothin'!) She just had to see the real thing on her own wall to know it wasn't right.

She said on the way out "I'm going to listen to you from now on."

We'll see....

 

[Framar]

I made myself a button that reads "Trust Me - I'm Your Framer."

That might be a good idea for Hanna's little Grumble store.....

 

[Jim Miller]

Framer Of The Day

Update on "I told you so Lady". ..Artist friend told her "You should have listened to your framer, she was right"... And she even admitted she should've listened to me, but she was just trying to save money. Husband agreed...

Way to go, Val.

Your customers have seen the light. You must have said just the right thing to bring them back with such a humble admission of guilt and greed.

A lot of framers would have blown it by feeling offended or being defensive. If there were a gold star for Framer Of The Day, I'm sure it would be yours today.

Feels good, doesn't it?

 

[Val]

Yes, it does, Jim, and thank you.

I guess trust is something we have to earn, and know in our hearts that what we recommend is truly what we believe to be right for the piece, based on our experience and what we've been taught in this industry, trying to keep our own personal preferences aside. Sometimes that's difficult to do. I tell myself every day that different folks have different tastes, and do the best I can to educate my customers as to the "why" I believe one way or another. Sometimes we don't agree, and that's just the way it goes.

Yes, it feels good, this was a hard-won trust, and the woman handled the outcome very humbly. I told her I was proud of her. She stood up a little taller when she left.

I like the button idea, Mar.

 

[j Paul]

Mount the camera is the challenge. False ceilings with tiny little bars of aluminum, ......

Val, I know you already bought your tripod, but just wanted to add this info in case someone else is facing the same challenge.

Mounting your camera onto the ceiling tiles in a suspended ceiling is no problem. If you have a mounting plate for the camera, you simply need to install wall anchors into the ceiling tile, the same way you would into drywall if you were hanging a picture. My camera mount is about 2" round, with three anchors and believe me that camera isn't going to pull our of the ceiling tile. :smiley: