I like da bigguns

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Marc Lzier

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Okay,

So here's the deal. We've got a big job coming thru. Big all around. Big moulding, made into allot of big frames.

Getting the moulding isn't going to be the problem. I've already got the factory and importation lined up. But cutting and joining is another story.

Here are the questions:
Who out there has any big a** saws. Who makes it? Do you like it? How big does it go? I've looked into the CTD, the Cassise, and a bit of the Schlickter. Info on these or any others would be great.

Joining: MasterClamp is just Da Bomb for big stuff. But, in my opinion, for this job, there are too many frames at one time to do efficiently using the system. If I do all four corners at once, and have 3 clamp sets (of 4 clamps), each doing three frames a day, I am at a month to 2 ½ months of workdays joining.

What machines do you know of that go grande? I can have Active Sales take the clamp mechanism out of one of our 810's and then the nail can be placed the length of the join. But the corner will need to be muscle into place for joining with no center clamp.

I understand that one company is coming out with a v-nailer with a larger capacity. Anyone have that machine? How big does it go? Anyone know of any others doing the same?

There is always the joining option that Big Box mirror whosalers use: The corrugated staple. But to buy that machine will have limited application in regular use.

This brings me to another avenue of questions. My situation with this job is peculiar. But with the trend to larger frames what in general are you doing in your shop. I want to write an article on this. How many of these bigguns are you doing? How often (on average)? Do you order chop and join? And what kind of markup do you put on that? How happy are you with the cut, join and ship? And how often do you order the wrong size?

Do you order cut, and join yourself? How are you sticking these large frames together? What kind of markup are you putting on these, if you do it this way?

If you cut these yourself, what are you using? Chainsaw? Circular saw? Hacksaw? Axe?
And are you happy with the cut you are getting?

Please share your approaches and experiences, advice or admonitions.

Thanks,
Marc Lizer, Counter Intelligence
 
If my memory serves me, I think the name of Al Bundy's favorite magazine is bigguns.
Couldn't resist.
I'm sorry I don't have anything constructive to tell you.
Jay
 
HOW BIG IS BIG?

I USE A 14" PISTORIOS ON MOST FRAMES, BUT ON REALY BIG GUYS I USE A DEWALT 12" SLIDE SAW.
THIS SAW WILL CUT MOULDINGS UP TO 4" HIGH AND 8" WIDE. REMEMBER ITS ALL IN THE BLADE!!!

AS FOR JOINING THESE BIGUNS I USE BISCUITS AND UNDER PIN ON AN AMP VN-42 WHICH WILL HANDLE UP TO 5" BEHIND THE RABBIT WITH THE CLAMP.

DAVE
 
I'd check with cabinetmakers for joining options, the biscuit joiners are a good solution, and makes a helluva strong joint. Along with the masterclamps, they should do the trick. I really don't think you need to have the joints under pressure more than 30 min. They can cure without the clamp.
Have cut big mouldings with a sliding miter box. Set up properly, and with a good blade they will do the trick.
Want real accurate miters...use a sliding table panel saw with a miter jig. Used this on some 4"X6" profiles with great reaults.
 
Dittos about the biscuit joiner. I've had a Dewalt for about eight years now, and it has always performed flawlessly. They use biscuits to join solid wooden doors. Should be plenty strong for your application. I think they are around two hundred bucks, and you can always use it to join shadow boxes or build any type cabinet. Very easy to learn, and very forgiving (i.e., you have some wiggle room). As far as cutting, you could probably rent a large capacity chop saw,or sliding miter saw, and buy a premium blade, or you might check with a cabinetmaker. Good cabinetmakers are perfectionists, and they have experience dealing with large pieces of material. Get them to cut one, and see how they do. Anyway, its got to be cheaper than getting the moulding company to chop it. Masterclamp seems like they could be the way to go as far as clamping them goes. If you use the biscuits your shouldn't have to clamp them very long at all. The biscuits start swelling almost immediately. Give us some more info, too. You've peaked my curiosity.
 
Jkol,
Not a problem. Can you remember the name of the magazine the Eddie Murphy reads in 48 hrs?

TRACY ART & FRAME asks (yells):
"HOW BIG IS BIG?"

We are looking in the 6 ½ range. But the biscuits sound good. Hmmmmmmmmmmm biscuits.

wpfay sez:
Want real accurate miters...use a sliding table panel saw with a miter jig. Used this on some 4"X6" profiles with great results.

Homer Simpson would say:
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Tool.

Framer, re: slot nailer,
Interesting. Got one handy? ;^b
Seriously tho, how versatile will it be for other uses?

Chelvis,
Caught your post just before I sent this, but after I had written it. I will be able to elaborate later.
 
You might give John Knoell & Son a try http://www.knoell.com/ , they have a Euro V- nailer that will do a 6" moulding and a 16" double miter saw that will cut over 6". As far as I know those are the largest capacities out there. In your own neck of the woods you have CTD which you might check to see if they will custom build or modify an existing model to suit you. I know they have single miter saws with up to 20" blades that they modify for a variety of uses. It just depends on what you want to spend. They also build their own line of V-nailers but are new to the market so don't know much about them. I do know they can handle a 5" moulding and maybe CTD can modify the clamping mechanism to hold 6-7". You wouldn't be able to nail the inside inch or so but I don't think that would be a big problem.

As far as quality goes I've been using CTD saws for years and have never had any problem. They are kind of the standard in these parts. Some people like the Pistorius saws better but they never seem to be able to say why. I think it's a Ford/Chevy thing.
 
OK, so I'm still thinking on your problem...
If you buy 2 Dewalt 12" sliding miter saws and set them up with a common fence on a 20' long solid workbench and spent a day or two adjusting everything to within a gnat's a** you would get by fine for this job at least. It would cost you about $10K less than a 14-16" double miter saw. BUT if this was to be a common type of job for you or if you don't have a double miter saw and you intend to stay in this business awhile go ahead and spend the bucks on the big saw. You will save time and money in the long haul. Just a thought.

oops...I spelled out a** for real and the editor didn't catch it. I was almost more offensive than intended.

[This message has been edited by Frank (edited May 04, 2001).]
 
Marc, I borrowed my brothers sliding miterbox to do a couple of big ones last summer. I wasn't ready to build my own, but I bought a Mikita 16" cutoff saw that I was going to mount under a table and push it up through the moulding from the back at the bottom, sorta like the FrameSquare but the moulding would be clamped solid and the blade would move. When I got thru cutting I underpinned them with my Euro. I didn't know that was even an issue.
 
Marc: A while back "Woodchuck" wrote about a publication...Tools On Sale. I took his advice and ordered the book. I looked up plate (biscuit) joiners for you and they range in price from $109 to $650. They even advertuse a new joinery system called ...Beadlock. I haven't had the chance to check out the book as it just came yesterday but looks real good. Their prices even beat Home Depot. 1-800-328-0457 FAX: 1-651-224-8263 email: www.7cornershdwe.com
 
Hey Marc:
We have a single miter chop saw that also slides in and out...it does the job on the Big-uns just fine...also if you use a masterclamp-corrugated nail combo, it will cut down on your clamping time and still give you those good tight joins. Come and see me at our booth in Louisville if you're there and we'll talk more about it.

------------------
Seth J. Bogdanove, CPF
21 years framing and still loving it
 
Hey guys, check this one out...they make a pnuematic nailgun that shoots v-nails. Never heard of such a thing. Might work well with the Masterclamps. Clamp the joint then flip it over and underpin it. Could be a good solution for those who can only afford one clamp and don't want to wait for the glue to set. http://www.pamfast.com/page_2.htm Check under joiners and fasteners.

[This message has been edited by Frank (edited May 08, 2001).]
 
I built in to the quote the fact that new equipment may be needed. I was at least assuming on upgrading our saws. Making our 15 year old CTD '45 the "metal only" saw. And the new one for wood only.

After some poking and checking. I think the best system to use will be a sliding (top) table saw (I hear from a little birdie that one Grumbler is selling a line of table saws, I have a call into them) and the MasterClamps (and of course we know where to get a MasterClamp from) with biscuits. I figure clamps on all four corners and an hour to set (but I am told 15 min will be fine. Any opin Boggy?).

The (fixed top) table saw we have (the lowest end Sears Craftsman) sees almost daily use, and is an indispensable tool in our shop, even with the primitive, and inaccurate fence and feed system. To get a real piece of equipment will increase what we are able to offer. Not just in wide moulding, but in other professional woodworking capabilities. (After all you all are professional woodworkers too: you get paid for working with wood, right?).

We are still working on the moulding design with the customer (he is going to execute the repeat himself, so the framing is totally part of the artwork). From the time we get it to the factory we are still 2 months or more away from product. I still have time to find the right system. Any other thots?
 
A sliding table saw is a pretty cool toy but don't throw away your wood blades for your CTD just yet. I think you'll be disappointed in the production you'll get from the table saw. You only cut one mitre at a time, moving the moulding from one side to the other or changing the setting on your mitre fence can really slow you down. I built a sliding jig for my table saw and although I can cut an 8" moulding accurately I never use it now that I have a double mitre saw. Too slow.
That's not so say that a table saw is a bad thing. I have an old 10" Delta Contractors that, like you, I use almost every day. I do wish I had bought the larger Unisaw or General or something. Now I'm kind of stuck, the saw I have is good enough but not as good as I would like. Kind of where you are I think.
 
Frank,
I was meaning that if I got a biggun saw, I would relegate our workhorse of a CTD to metal only tasks. Save on combo blades. Save cleanup and change over time from one material to another.

BUT, if I go the table route. The CTD saw will be used as it is now. For everything, and the table will do the bigguns, and other junk. I would also be able to do chops for local framers (not that I'm thinking that is a big income string).

I just spoke with Gryphon; he will be able to hook me up on the Canadian one. In theory I can actually have him cut them. But at about $3,500 (rounding up, way up) for the saw, it is about 6% of the job quote. Not a bad investment for the ability to be able to provide the bigguns for this job, and future jobs. People are pulling out the bigguns more and more, and we have paying an arm and a leg for them as chop, or even chop and join.
I will still crunch some numbers to see what kind of numbers on regular biggun orders we would have needed to do to have the machine pay for itself. Bob? Jay? Rob? Any one else chime in on the numbers.

Bob, know you may say lease.
Jay, you may say to still buy chop.
Rob, I know you are for the saw, since you have one, but what kind of numbers did you use to justify the purchase?


marc
 
Marc-Anything that you want to keep and has little chance of becoming obsolete is a purchase. Anything that you may not want to keep or you are waiting for the next new and improved model, lease or rent. This sounds like a keeper to me.

[This message has been edited by Bob Carter (edited May 08, 2001).]
 
Marc,

If you're joining big pieces of wood I suggest a "Kreg Jig" and screws. This jig is used by a lot of wood workers. The screws will pull the joint in tight and no clamps needed. The Kreg company sell a number of models of it's machine. It uses a stepped drill that drills the hole for the threaded part of the screw and the bigger hole for the screw shaft at the same time. Kreg also sells hardened screws specifically for this joining method. The basic jig is about a hundred bucks and they also sell automated versions for big bucks. www.kregtool.com


[This message has been edited by Scarfinger (edited May 08, 2001).]
 
Marc-
An hour drying time really would be overkill. Try a half-hour if the 15-20 min makes you antsy. Also, if 6-1/2" isn't enough Masterclamp for you, Avi can and has made bigger ones on request. As usual, the (brand new and improved) website is www.masterclamp.com
See y'all in Kentucky (!)

------------------
Seth J. Bogdanove, CPF
21 years framing and still loving it
 
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