I did not have a good answer

[JBergelin]

Yesterday a gentleman and his daughter were in. They had two original pieces bought at auction (not a cruise ship) that they said were "very valuable". The body language was that they did not know much about framing - and were uncomfortable.

So I explained about nori paste and hinges, 8 ply space from the glazing, 99 uv protection, con clear vs museum, acid free vs PH neutral, etc, etc. We came up with two nice designs but the father was clearly frustrated.

Eventually he explained that he was frustrated because he could not pick up the frames and figure out the cost without me entering it into the computer. He felt that he could not satisfy himself that I was showing him the best values that I had and that he could not have input regarding the frame prices by himself.

Here in Michigan retailers are suppose to display prices so that consumers can make informed decisions. Wal-mart a few years back got in big trouble for not pricing each item in the store.

He liked the designs so he paid the 50% - did not want to pay in full until he saw the final project - OK with me - but after he left I wondered .... how should this have been handled?

 

[j Paul]

Here in Michigan retailers are suppose to display prices so that consumers can make informed decisions.

Well I'm less than 5 miles over the Ohio border so I'm not familiar with Michigan's laws regarding that. However if common sense were to prevail (although doubtful) I would assume that unless you are offering to sell just the moulding cash/carry that you wouldn't need to display a per foot price on a custom product because of the labor factor. Some framer might have the same $X.XX per foot for the frame but a completely different way of calculating labor.If that were the case (that you don't have to display pricing on custom made items) I would prepare a very simply answer in advance for that question in the future. Something to the effect of, mouldings have various prices per foot for the cost of materials, but different mouldings present different challenges in cut/join and labor/waste factor thus is calculated so and so. Whatever scenario works for you.

 

[PaulSF]

"He liked the designs so he paid the 50% - did not want to pay in full until he saw the final project - OK with me - but after he left I wondered .... how should this have been handled?"

I'm a little concerned about this last part. What if he comes to pick up the work, and he doesn't like the way the frame looks -- not workmanship, but design? Is he going to decline to pay the remainder, and if he does, will you disassemble his art from the frame?

 

[moglet]

Yesterday a gentleman and his daughter were in. They had two original pieces bought at auction (not a cruise ship) that they said were "very valuable". The body language was that they did not know much about framing - and were uncomfortable.

So I explained about nori paste and hinges, 8 ply space from the glazing, 99 uv protection, con clear vs museum, acid free vs PH neutral, etc, etc. We came up with two nice designs but the father was clearly frustrated.

Eventually he explained that he was frustrated because he could not pick up the frames and figure out the cost without me entering it into the computer. He felt that he could not satisfy himself that I was showing him the best values that I had and that he could not have input regarding the frame prices by himself.

Here in Michigan retailers are suppose to display prices so that consumers can make informed decisions. Wal-mart a few years back got in big trouble for not pricing each item in the store.

He liked the designs so he paid the 50% - did not want to pay in full until he saw the final project - OK with me - but after he left I wondered .... how should this have been handled?

"Walmart vs. Bespoke Business" is not a like-for-like comparison. As a framer offering customised merchandise, we need to price each job individually, in just the same way as a tailor quotes for a made-to-measure suit. In the bespoke world, the price on each job is based on the materials, methods and time required for its construction: the nearest thing we have to "list price" is to have a computer system that does the math. If anything it should be more reassuring to the customer that a machine is doing the calculation of the price for their work, compared to pulling numbers out of thin air or scribbling them on the back of a fag packet.

For the life of me, even with 3½ years' experience under my belt, I explain to customers who query my pricing methods that I use the computer for quotations because every job is fairly unique, that it is priced on a time and materials basis, and that the computer is the fastest way to give an accurate price, based purely on the precise requirements of each individual job.

In contrast, Walmart's products are (to the best of my knowledge) not "bespoke." Ergo, they know their fundamental costs "up-front" and are in a position to decide on their retail price, and label it accordingly.

That said, if I offered ready-made frames, I would consider it a reasonable customer expectation to have the price displayed for such an item.

I think that if I was on the receiving end of such a query, I would compare quoting for a bespoke frame with the quotations offered by the likes of building contractors, dressmakers, or other businesses who produce work that is tailor-made to order. I would further back up my methods by advising that all that the computer does is speed up the calculation process for the materials/labour costs, and it has the added advantage of calculating a price that is truly representative of the time and materials that are required to complete the job.

As a supplemental, there are times when I am asked why I charge more than other competitors. When pushed like this, I explain to customers that different framers may have widely differing offers (e.g. expertise, quality of materials, appropriatness of methods, additional advice, plus the finish and longevity of their final product. If pushed further, I will also explain that there can be a massive differential in the cost of doing business between, say, a garage-based hobbyist and a professional framer with a high street premises.

 

[Prospero]

Strange chap. He not afterall buying a bag of oranges at the market. Would he go for a haircut and expect to be charged by the length of hair removed? Would he take his car to a garage and ask to see lists of spare parts from all manufacturers? Or go to his doctor and ask how much to cure his bad leg?

Maybe he would.
Had a guy in yesterday, mooching about. Eventually he pointed to a pile of old frames on the floor and asked, "How much would a frame be about that size?" It's one of those "having a picture framed or buying a picture frame" scenarios.

Maybe we should all have a sign on our respective foreheads quoting our hourly rate.


"On the chest of a barmaid from Sale,
Was tattooed all the prices of Ale.
And on her Behind,
For the sake of the Blind,
Was exactly the same, but in Braille".

 

[Jodie Noname]

The body language was that they did not know much about framing - and were uncomfortable.

Brand new customers really don't understand how we work, and all they have to compare us to is what they already know. That's why price is often discussed - this they DO understand.

How many times have you had someone come in and say "I don't want to spend a lot, I just want a thin, black frame." Chances are, this customer is new to custom framing.

With brand new customers we need to be a little empathetic. Explain to them that custom made frames are exactly like ordering a custom made suit. The piece is designed especially for you, in the colours and materials that you choose, then it is individually hand-crafted to your specifications.

With my computer software, Framiac, I can tell the customer the retail breakdown of the entire frame if they really want to know.

Maybe this guy just didn't want to look uninformed in front of his daughter, and that's why he made a bit of a fuss. Who knows?

 

[johnny]

"Walmart vs. Bespoke Business" is not a like-for-like comparison. As a framer offering customised merchandise, we need to price each job individually, in just the same way as a tailor quotes for a made-to-measure suit. In the bespoke world, the price on each job is based on the materials, methods and time required for its construction: the nearest thing we have to "list price" is to have a computer system that does the math. If anything it should be more reassuring to the customer that a machine is doing the calculation of the price for their work, compared to pulling numbers out of thin air or scribbling them on the back of a fag packet.

For the life of me, even with 3½ years' experience under my belt, I explain to customers who query my pricing methods that I use the computer for quotations because every job is fairly unique, that it is priced on a time and materials basis, and that the computer is the fastest way to give an accurate price, based purely on the precise requirements of each individual job.

In contrast, Walmart's products are (to the best of my knowledge) not "bespoke." Ergo, they know their fundamental costs "up-front" and are in a position to decide on their retail price, and label it accordingly.

That said, if I offered ready-made frames, I would consider it a reasonable customer expectation to have the price displayed for such an item.

I think that if I was on the receiving end of such a query, I would compare quoting for a bespoke frame with the quotations offered by the likes of building contractors, dressmakers, or other businesses who produce work that is tailor-made to order. I would further back up my methods by advising that all that the computer does is speed up the calculation process for the materials/labour costs, and it has the added advantage of calculating a price that is truly representative of the time and materials that are required to complete the job.

As a supplemental, there are times when I am asked why I charge more than other competitors. When pushed like this, I explain to customers that different framers may have widely differing offers (e.g. expertise, quality of materials, appropriatness of methods, additional advice, plus the finish and longevity of their final product. If pushed further, I will also explain that there can be a massive differential in the cost of doing business between, say, a garage-based hobbyist and a professional framer with a high street premises.

Fantastic post.

 

[danny boy]

"Walmart vs. Bespoke Business" is not a like-for-like comparison. As a framer offering customised merchandise, we need to price each job individually, in just the same way as a tailor quotes for a made-to-measure suit. In the bespoke world, the price on each job is based on the materials, methods and time required for its construction: the nearest thing we have to "list price" is to have a computer system that does the math. If anything it should be more reassuring to the customer that a machine is doing the calculation of the price for their work, compared to pulling numbers out of thin air or scribbling them on the back of a fag packet.

For the life of me, even with 3½ years' experience under my belt, I explain to customers who query my pricing methods that I use the computer for quotations because every job is fairly unique, that it is priced on a time and materials basis, and that the computer is the fastest way to give an accurate price, based purely on the precise requirements of each individual job.

In contrast, Walmart's products are (to the best of my knowledge) not "bespoke." Ergo, they know their fundamental costs "up-front" and are in a position to decide on their retail price, and label it accordingly.

That said, if I offered ready-made frames, I would consider it a reasonable customer expectation to have the price displayed for such an item.

I think that if I was on the receiving end of such a query, I would compare quoting for a bespoke frame with the quotations offered by the likes of building contractors, dressmakers, or other businesses who produce work that is tailor-made to order. I would further back up my methods by advising that all that the computer does is speed up the calculation process for the materials/labour costs, and it has the added advantage of calculating a price that is truly representative of the time and materials that are required to complete the job.

As a supplemental, there are times when I am asked why I charge more than other competitors. When pushed like this, I explain to customers that different framers may have widely differing offers (e.g. expertise, quality of materials, appropriatness of methods, additional advice, plus the finish and longevity of their final product. If pushed further, I will also explain that there can be a massive differential in the cost of doing business between, say, a garage-based hobbyist and a professional framer with a high street premises.

Wow. That was wonderful, and a great way to explain what we do.

 

[ahohen1]

When i feel a new customer is not sure he will be "getting what he paid for", i do everything except put a paper backing... when they come to pick it up, i take it apart (only a few staples to remove) and show them exactly what they are getting. I then tell them if they have ANY doubt in the quality of the job, i will take it apart and show them. After this, they trust me 100% and come back for more framing.

 

[Beveled]

Ahohen1, thats a good idea. It left me wondering though, why do people have such a distrust in what we do and what we charge for it?

 

[DVieau2]

So I explained about nori paste and hinges, 8 ply space from the glazing, 99 uv protection, con clear vs museum, acid free vs PH neutral, etc, etc. We came up with two nice designs but the father was clearly frustrated.................
He liked the designs so he paid the 50% - did not want to pay in full until he saw the final project - OK with me - but after he left I wondered .... how should this have been handled?

Actually, it sounds to me like you did just fine. Great design, closed the sale and 50% down.

OK... so the old man didn't do a happy dance, you did your job just fine.

Doug

 

[ahohen1]

Ahohen1, thats a good idea. It left me wondering though, why do people have such a distrust in what we do and what we charge for it?

Hi Beveled... probably because of what some shops do. An example is what happened few months ago... a lady brought in a framed signed and numbered print. It was about 10 years old. She broke the glass, but everything else was okay... frame not damaged. I took it apart in front of her to make sure the print was not scratched in any way. The backing was cardboard instead of acid-free foamboard. I had two mats... the mat that rested against the print was NOT even a conservation matboard... the print was slowly turning yellow. However, the top mat WAS a conservation mat!?! I explained the situation to her. She understood exactly what i was saying and she couldn't believe they would do that to her. She said when she asked them about the quality of their framing, they told her everything they used was "acid-free". She was convinced by those magic words. She agreed to have it re-matted, acid-free foamboard, etc. I have been re-framing old items and framing new items for her, her two sons, her neighbor, and a small company she works for ever since.....

My goal is to convince the NEW customer to trust me 100%. It has always worked for me....

 

[Beveled]

We just took one apart like that too, except they chose to also put cardboard behind the mat, I guess for the raised look. And everything was heavily taped in place. However, I think this item was purchased at a place that sells mass produced pictures.

 

[janetj1968]

I have no firsthand knowledge about the laws in your state, but I can tell you that if the law says your pricing needs to be displayed...then it needs to be displayed.

As PIA as it is, get your POS system to print out accurate price information for your mouldings. Update them every time a vendor has an update. This doesn't have to go into a sticker on the back of each but DO keep it somewhere it is readily accessible, like a notebook. Honestly, in case of a power outage or computer problem you'll be glad you have it, regardless.

Make a detailed menu list of your labor and other charges so that it matches your POS. Although every framing job IS different, if you can estimate the number of hours of labor on a POS it shouldn't be that difficult to list a rate on a board. (List in 1/2 hour increments, for example)

If you're figuring your fitting charges and material costs (mats, glass & foam) by the united inch, this should make it pretty easy.

I would hate to go through this myself...and although I agree with the other posts that this is a custom item and a headache to do-- but if an item can be priced with a POS program it can be priced, period... Because a piece needs an 8-ply spacer doesn't mean they have to buy it. That's what the law is trying to express. The customer needs to see their pricing options.

The law requires you to post your rates and having those rates posted absolves you of your responsibility. It does not require your customer to have a knowledge of everything that will need to be done but if it is done, what is your posted rate for that item.

 

[Ylva]

I guess the customer just wanted to see some price on the moulding samples, to determine which moulding was more expensive. I get a lot of questions like 'is this moulding more expensive than this one' and so on.

It is hard to explain to first time frame customers, that the price is really not so much in the material, as it is in techniques and labor. You have to emphasize that it is custom made.

Maybe you should put a per foot (retail) price on your lowest price moulding, and one on the highest and tell that it can run anywhere in between.

 

[Bill Henry-]

I grab wholesale prices on line similar to POS subscribers, but I use spreadsheets to display my retail prices. Once I have my price sheets, it is a comparatively easy steps to print out retail price labels and affix them onto our moulding corner samples.

When asked how the frame prices are calculated, I am more than willing to walk our customers through the arithmetic.

Even if they don’t have the skills or interest to do the math, at least they can compare moudling prices from low to high.

I’m not sure how we could display mat prices since there are dozens of varieties, and, in our case, about twenty-five design styles. When they ask, I gladly tell them the prices.

 

[JFeig]

Here in Michigan retailers are suppose to display prices so that consumers can make informed decisions.

It is my understanding that the law applies to "cash and carry" merchandise, not services.... other than automotive service. There is also an exemption of 50 SKU's.

 

[Paul N]

There are so many variables in framing prices (beyond fixed cost items like ready-mades and art), it's ludicrous to even entertain the idea of displaying prices!

 

[Grey Owl]

There are so many variables in framing prices (beyond fixed cost items like ready-mades and art), it's ludicrous to even entertain the idea of displaying prices!

I agree, but you assume that members of legislatures understand or care. How many laws are out there that are ludicrous?