How's the cmc doing?

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po' framer

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 21, 1999
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722
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Atchison, KS
Framer

It's been a while now since you made the Wizard rental decision. How's it looking now? I noticed that Wizard has got all these clipart downloads now and all, as well. Have you used any of those?
 
I'm sold! Get one anyway you can. Yes! I love the clip art and have done several. The multi opening multi layers is where it shines. I did a 5 opening 2 layer mat while the customer waited last Saturday. Total time about 5 minutes.

I do a lot of fillets and it cut the opening so perfect I size one piece of fillet and cut two, both sides are the same size, I save about 30% of the time it takes on my fillets.

framer
 
I installed one last Novenber. My dad installed it, rather. I learned to use it on my own in no time flat. A real time saver. Don't know how I got along without it all these years.
 
I got mine at about the same time as Framer. I love the CMC, but apparently spend a whole lot more time on multi's. I find them time consuming to lay out--minutes to hours, depending on the design. -----"alignment", "crosshair", I don't comprehend either in theory, and fuddle through the whole process.

I find some of the CMC capabilites limited. I did a newspaper that had one indented corner. Ended up doing it the old way by hand. I don't have CADD--I was told if you are not comfortable with compuerts, forget it.

Maybe computer people can figure it all out, but I need simplicity. I still don't understand the multi-op use (I did the tutorials)------clip art-- I am not even there.

I never thought I'd use the corners a month I am using, and find myself being stingy with them. I had to buy extra corners the first month. I also didn't know cutting the outside of the mat was a 4 corner deduct, each time you cut a mat.
I tried cutting to size, -- only cutting the opening--the borders were off by 1/4" most times.

So I have a love, and some other kind of relationship with my Wizard---"I love you, but you need to do what I want, when I want it, and right now---with less corners and less time...............of course"!!!!!!

Sorry to grumble...............I do love my CMC, but expected more simplicty than I received. Then I hear about all this 5 minute design and cut of multi-op mats. Maybe I am to DAH for this technology!?
 
Margaret, our borders are off by about !/8" whenever we don't cut the outside of the mat. It's a pain. Not sure how to fix it.I usually end up trimming the mat a little with an exacto knife. That's progress?

Basically, I like the Wizard and am glad we have it. I hardly remember how to cut mats on a regular mat cutter.

I like the bevel that the CMC does, too. It's wider than on hand cut mats.

I like the multi-opening aspects, but kinda wish for the old program. Why do they have that fishnet design on two of the margins? Is it really necessary?
 
Margaret: For the indented corners you just have to overlap two openings. Takes a little practice, but it works. I don't know CADD either and have trouble with crosshairs. There are other ways of doing things on the machine. I took out my instruction manual and went to their sample multi-opening section and followed one example all the way through. It really helped. Now I still don't comprehend the crosshairs but found another way to do multi's without it. Good luck.

Cody
 
On the wizard when it cuts a 16 x 20, it cuts it 15 7/8 x 19 7/8. When you cut the outside cut it 1/8 smaller than what you put in the machine. The boarders are then the same.

I've been meaning to discuss this with Wizard.
 
Wizard borders off by small amount...

There was a calibration procedure, buried deeply in the manual, for adjusting the Wizard to eliminate this problem. I don't remember whether it was a mechanical or keyboard entry to solve the problem. It might be time consuming to resolve, but eliminating this error will save major headaches over time.

Rick
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by framer:
On the wizard when it cuts a 16 x 20, it cuts it 15 7/8 x 19 7/8. When you cut the outside cut it 1/8 smaller than what you put in the machine. The boarders are then the same.

I've been meaning to discuss this with Wizard.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's always been like that and prolly always will. They call it an "undocumented feature."
As for the newspaper, they do have a template made for that, where you adjust all the sizes to show headlines, etc. I think it's called newspaper, not near the machine now so not sure which template number.
 
OK kids, the Wizard is just like any other tool, you've gots to give it time.
Take your problems with it and spend the time to solve them as they occur. Start with the manual, then call Wizard help desk. Take them one at a time and make a project of solving that particular problem. My first two years with my Wizard was some what of a pain. I found a lot of the time it was malfunctioning equipment and the parts had to be replaced.
This machine is well worth the trouble. Whatever you do, don't let the problems multiply, you will end up very frustrated and Td off at Wizard, life is way to short for that.

John
 
One day when I was really ticked off at the Wizard I happened to go see a demo of another machine. I bought it on the spot and sent the Wiz packing. As above - life is too short!!
 
We have had our Wizard for about 6 months now and couldn't live withut it. My wrists are shot!

Like all new technology, there are small problems, most of which can be figured out with time and practice. My husband is very computer literate and pretty much learned and taught me. He does a lot of work on the vcadd and while the first jobs took a while, he is pretty quick now (though it did take a while for him to do a really awesome wolf paw).

Like anything, practice make perfect. We purchased our machine--We use way too many corners to worry about them. It is also easier to practice on fun things without worrying about using up 128 corners for one mat. I do know this is not a viable option for a lot, and I think the rental idea is a good one.

Keep trucking with the Wizard and it will prove to be your best friend.
 
What great encouragemant! And Cody, thanks for the tip on overlapping two openings. I never in a million years would have thought of it. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. I'll keep hanging in there-- would hate to go back to the "old" way. thanks!
 
Well, it certainly seems as if everyone is sold on their cmc. I had asked framer specifically about his Wizard deal and gots lots of cool responses! Thanks, everyone, and if there's any other stuff to mention please keep adding it in.

The one constant I keep hearing is: I love my cmc and wouldn't want to do without it, but there's something about it which really irritates me. Whether it's programming, calibration, bad pieces or just trying to get up to speed when I'm busy working and don't have time to fool with it, there really is that one constant.

I personally don't think it's right that you have to pay significant money and then figure out ways to work around the damned thing by adding inches here and there; pardon my French. And pardons to the French for saying "Pardon my French." I wonder from where THAT saying came.

John Baker and Scarfinger, as usual, really had salient points. Don't live with the problems; get them fixed or get another system.

Another good point was all the corners you will cut while you're learning; makes you feel that possibly negotiating a "training package" of corners wouldn't be such a bad idea... say unlimited corners for a month or so for a certain price. Also, it seems that if you're coming close to the corner ceiling amounts, that you're better off to cut the outsides by hand. Particular if the d_____d thing won't cut them to the right size anyway.

One issue which is kind of a Fletcher/ Eclipse (maybe Wizard, too, I don't know)thing has peripherally caught my attention, but I haven't researched it enough to understand it well. What's the difference between servo and ... well, non-servo systems? Is this considered to be a reliability issue, an accuracy issue or both?
 
The reason I buy major purchases as shows is for the free "extras". I rented the Wiz at the Atlanta show, so I received a month of free corners, plus an extra box of blades.
For $.20, I'll let the machine cut the outside of the mat for me.
 
That certainly makes sense. I didn't know what the corners cost.

On another note, I can see Wizard must be reading the grumble, framer. I started this topic just a few days ago and today I got this huge Wizard packet in the mail.

Is this one of those cosmic coincidences or something?
 
I am soon to join the ranks of CMC owner. Wizard has no rental plan down here in The Land of Oz...its purchase or nothing. The price is too much for me to finance.
I have opted for a Gunnar Rapido about 12 months old for a much better price & includes new warranty.
Are there any Gunnar Rapido owners out there?
 
Man, I am beginning to wonder how a frame shop can NOT have a cmc. The decision is to make it fit your business, it seems.

A quick bit of head math tells me that you need to cut about 2500 corners/month before the standard rental program becomes more economical than the jr. rental program. (That's if you're renting and not on the lease or purchase plans).

This Wizard entry level rental deal is ingenious. No wonder they have so many machines out there. I'd always been looking at the economics from a point of view of a guy who likes to own, or at least lease to own.

It almost looks like Wiz has the entry level market locked up, with Fletcher, Eclipse or one of the really expensive high-production systems being there as the dream machine we'd like to have when we can afford it.

Do you think they're all waiting for that house to come crumbling down as those systems get older and harder to keep going? Does Wizard have that future expense amortized into their rentals or are cmc renters going to see significant increases in their rental prices to keep their machines?

Strap in, folks; this could be fun.
 
Fletcher-Terry F-6100 - Solid, heavy duty machine - after 30,000 mats it's just like new. Quality, thin, precise blade. Straight precise cuts. Even, clean Vee Grooves - narrow, standard or wide. Quiet - doesn't sound like it's tearing itself apart when cutting ovals. Very easy to adjust over/under cuts - I last adjusted mine about 10,000 mats ago. 2 sided or 4 sided size cuts and oval size cuts are easy to adjust as well. I like the software - I cut CAD designs almost every day - in CAD I can usually scan, paste, and draw around an image shape and cut to fit first try. The clamps are great - can cut to within 1/4 inch of edge and mat layers are put together while on the machine so they are ATG'd and aligned when the cut is finished - up to 6 mats thick. 4 blade holders set cut depth automatically for 2, 4, 6, and 8 ply. 2 ply holder does Vee Grooves too. All that and a cool professional looking machine!!

And I can cut as many corners as I want - I did one that included text today that must have had at least 1000 corners but I didn't bother to count!

Any busy full service frame shop can justify buying or leasing a good machine like this.



[This message has been edited by Scarfinger (edited April 22, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Scarfinger (edited April 22, 2001).]
 
Scarfinger, it sounds like a dream machine!

We have a Wizard, and I am grateful to at least have that, but the Fletcher appears to go over and beyond. It's too bad that they don't have a rental program like Wizard does.

Does the Fletcher produce that noise that shakes the whole building when it gets snagged on a mat?
 
I remember it snagging a mat once and it ripped the mat - it's a powerful machine. In the crate it's about 750 pounds!

Rent, lease, buy - it's all in the cash flow of your business. Be a real business person and get it together - if you're running a busy framing business it's not a lot of money. After having mine for 2 years there are no payments or corner charges. And I could sell it for more than yours cost if you bought it.
 
I concur Scarfinger. We've had our Fletcher ("Fletch") about a year. It's hard to remember what it was like before.

------------------
curlyframer, CPF
 
We've also had our Fletcher almost a year. AND we can remember what life was like before it.... All of the comments above still have not been fixed.... and some that the new owners haven't discovered yet. Life is too short to live with problems more than a reasonable amount of time. The Wizard is good for learning what questions to ask after you tire of living with the problems.

NOISE... NO the Fletcher does not make that awful noise when cutting a curve.

Rick

[This message has been edited by Frugal Framer (edited April 23, 2001).]
 
Hey--you get use to all those rumblings of the Wizard! And ours (I measured today) cuts perfect borders! Don't ask me why, but it is possible.
Also, to continue with "the Math", 2500 corners would amount to 312.5 double mats a month. That is not that many, especially if you figure in wasted corners for experimenting, which we still do a lot of, or any other fancy-type mats. Worrying about corner usage was a huge problem for me. We are up to over 50,000 corners, and that doesn't include the first couple of months we had it and were renting. It is really a matter of your production whether to rent, lease, or buy, but they are well worth their price, as well as time and trouble learning.
 
Getting the Wizard to cut perfect borders is simply a matter of adjusting the settings in the software. At the bottom of the cutting page is a menu item called "configs". When you click on this you get a screen that has every adjustment possible. Don't be afraid to experiment-you really can't screw it up, especially if you write down the original settings first so you can go back and change them if necessary. Take my word for it, this machine is capable of very exact cuts and borders and is not that hard to set up once you get there.
 
Outstanding input on this subject; keep it coming as I'm a data sponge when making a decision.

I'm personally sold on the idea of a cmc being more a need-to-have than a nice-to-have in this environment, particularly with the extra design features, linkage with shop mgmt tools and the experience that the manufacturers have gathered in the past few years by having their tools out there.

The rough decision is which one. Ideas are starting to coalesce; now when is the next frame show? Can I wait that long for the show goodies?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by osgood:
Are there any Gunnar Rapido owners out there?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have the regular Gunnar.

Trust me. It blows anthing else out of the water. I think you could actually take another computer mat cutter, put it in the machine, and cut a mat out of it.
 
Fletcher_Terry will be demonstrating the F-6100 at the Larson Juhl Framefest in Red Deer, Alberta on Sunday 29 April. This may be usefull to framers from Alberta, British Columbia, Alaska, Yukon, Montana, Idaho etc.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc Lzier:
We have the regular Gunnar.

Trust me. It blows anthing else out of the water. I think you could actually take another computer mat cutter, put it in the machine, and cut a mat out of it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Marc
Please tell everyone how much it costs vs. Fletcher and Wizard.


------------------
curlyframer, CPF
 
Bucks.

However it is worth all of them.

Like the saying: You get what you pay for.

First of all the clamps are on three sides, in a "'U' shape.

For instance: Whereas all other machines have only one 'zero' point. The Gunnar has a feature that puts the zero point at the lower left AND the lower right.

Meaning place mat in lower left.

Push "cut". As it is cutting, place a mat in the lower right, where the clamps are up.

When the first mat is cut. Push 'Cut' again.
The clamps will rise on the left side, and the left bottom. The clams will pull down on the right side, and the right bottom, and the cutting head will proceed to cut the mat at the "right" zero point. Leaving the left open and clear to take out the cut mat, and place in a blank. When placed, hit cut, and begin again.

This doubles the cutting capacity of the machine.

Other features.
Adjustable blade head insertion pressure, adjustable pressure of the board hold-down by the blade head, and adjustable clamp pressure.

Cutting speed. The speed at which the blades travels thru material is adjustable, and able to be tab set to different materials. Like slow on rag and 100's, and reg on reg and b/c.
And really fast (or faster) for if production is desired.

Servo motors. Not Steppers.

Swiss (German) engineering. Hence it runs with a watch.

Cuts from the front or back of material. Your choice.

V'groove cut from the face or from the back, like traditional v-grooves.

Easy interface.

Primo support.

I could go on but . . .

Like I said, you get what you pay for. If you but the cheapest machine, you get the cheapest cut. The Fletcher or Eclipse is a good compromise for quality vs. price for the average frame-shop.

If we did not have specific needs that the Gunnar meets those would be my choice. However do not overlook this machine.

The new model has no clamps. Cuts to the edge of the board.

Cuts bevel and straight cuts.

Need no slip sheet.

Will hold material in place on an angle installation.

Goes even faster than ours.

You can even enter in multiple mats of different inside and outside dimensions and let the software "array" the layout for you to get the most yield from the board.

Powerful stuff.
 
Has anyone sat back and calculated how much their CMC is profiting their business, as opposed to how much it costs them? Many seem to fear the chequebook impact, until they buy one and see the advantages.

In our case (Gunnar Rapido 40*60 - or should that be 1016*1524 :) the decision was simple. I cut no mats last month, but I cut ALL of them this month. I had never used the angled blade on a conventional cutter (for someone who pointed it out earlier, the Gunnar, like other CMC's, I'd imagine, cuts at 45 degrees from the horizontal, while the typical bench top mat cutter cuts at 60 degrees. Hence the wider bevels).

As a result our productive capacity is probably up by 30-40%, with our assistant only doing the front counter and fit&finish now. It came just in time, as the business seems to be growing fairly well.

The Rapido is actually cheaper than the Wizard in Oz, due to our lousy exchange rates to the USD at the moment. Go to Oz for a holiday - come to Perth and buy my lovely mats :)

Cheers,
Mike Wilson
Partner, Create A Frame

[This message has been edited by CAF (edited April 24, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by CAF (edited April 24, 2001).]
 
Productivity?

We had 2 guys cutting mats for the whole day.

We now have one person who uses the machine for less than half the day and can produce the same number of mats in that time.

Machine payment plus wages of half a day, for a month.

VS.

Wages for a full day for two people for a month.

At full bore (top throttle) the machine and single operator, will be able to do the work of 4 full time mat cutters. And on the COE setting (double 'zero' points, it will do the work of about 6 full time mat cutters.

Like any good tool, that is used properly, it costs less to have the machine. Not more.
 
Jana, those patterns you were asking about are the areas behind the clamps and therefore cannot be cut. As for the inaccuracies, as I mentioned in a previous post this is a simple matter of a software adjustment.

For those of you considering which CMC to buy, keep this in mind. Some of these machines are tens of thousands of dollars more than the Wizard. If I am not mistaken even the Fletcher is several thousand dollars more. Now if money is no object by all means get the most expensive machine you can. You will no doubt get a quieter, faster unit with more features. But if your shop is like ours, there will be a limit to what you can spend.

When I combine that reality with the fact that the Wizard will do just about everything that the others will do, with exact precision, all day every day, then I do not regret my decision to buy it for even a moment.

While it is generally true that you get what you pay for, I think in this case that some out there are paying for more than they are getting.
 
Let me put it to you this way. You have been eating Spagheti-os and Dominoes Pizza believe that to be Italian food.

Just realize you are not eating real Italian. You are eating a pale shadow of what is available.

My advice. Dine out before you speak. And, do me a favor: have some manners, and don't speak with your mouth full, and try not to belch at the table, as you have here.
 
Physician, heal thyself.
 
RobertM, you are not the physician...

I appreciate all the work and time you have put into learning the intricacies of the Wizard. Your confidence in it will be remembered when we decide to invest in a cmc. Your willingness to share your accumulated knowledge is certainly appreciated, by me, for one. Too many people refuse to share the things they've learned, preferring, rather to let the 'newbies' make their own way. Or to be judgemental when it boils down to what works for you.

Some drive Fords, some drive Ferarris. If they're both in good repair, they both get you to your destination. If you can afford $200,000 for the Ferarri, that's fine. Don't knock me because I can by ten Fords for that.

------------------
I'm not totally worthless. I can always be used as a bad example...
 
Neither the Ford or the Fararri will do you any good if you need a truck to deliver the goods. Every CMC has it's positives - the secret is being able to identify the ones that you need to deliver the goods.

I travelled a few thousand miles and cut mats on 7 different CMC's before I accepted that I had the wrong one and decided which one I believed I needed. My decision works well for me.

Now if you want to get back into that silly old defensive argument that mine is better than yours we could turn our attention to the Stanley cup hockey finals!!! Those bums...............
 
I love the wizard but we have an older system and it doesn't connect to the internet. I need to upgrade the software through the internet. Does anyone know what the upgrade upgrades besides the clip art. (I really want to try the clip art)
 
Subaluba, our Wizard computer is not connected to the net. We just received an upgrade on CD. But on any computer you can get on line with, go to the Wizard site and you can download tons of clip art to a 3 1/2 floppy then load into the Wizard program. You will love the clip art, I promise.
 
Well, I'll be durned: a pissin' contest sprung up out of an innocent question! Framer, this is surely got to be the first time that's happened on the grumble, eh?

But talk about some valuable information passed on, it's happening here. I really appreciate everybody pitching in.

Marc, I suspect you're right in that the Gunnar is the top of the line system. I've seen them at framing shows, but they looked too industrial and gold-plated for an investment of my time. In other words, I didn't think I'd be able to afford one and haven't had time at a show yet to just peruse something which might be a goood future fit for us. I resolve to make time the next time I get somewhere. What's the system cost, anyway? (I couldn't find it in a quick perusal of their website) I would guess in the $45 - 60k range, but they do have this whole range in their product line now. Let me just pull a number out of the air and say US$45k, so I can do some math. (Apologies to Gunnar but you shouldn't be afraid to put your price out there). This is comparing probable monthly leasing costs of Gunnar, Fletcher (Eclipse looks roughly equivalent) vs. the Wizard rental.

Systems: Gunnar F-T 6100 Wizard
cost: 45000 25500 16000
monthly (est) 940 525 375
(or, if you do the jr rental) 225
both wizard #'s include their minimum monthly cover charges (4000 & 1000 respectively) extra corners either 5/10cents
No corner charges on the other systems

Software: n/a n/a 500

Those numbers aren't too accurate, probably, but you can see the order of magnitude differences. I think Marc's observation that the Fletcher/Eclipse units are good value for the money is a good one. And besides, if you do like to drive a Mercedes, nothing else will work for you.

The comparison of a Wizard to a Ford is apt, too; not only in comparison to the other systems, but in thinking that those of us who are still cutting mats by hand are standing on the side of the road hitchhiking with sore wrists and backs. Those Fords whizzing past are looking pretty good!

In talking with the Wizard folks, they told me that only about 35 of the folks who got the rental machines (and that's out of thousands; hopefully they meant 35%) paid for a tech to ride shotgun with the system and fire it up. After looking at all the problems viewed above which people are living with, I'd respectfully suggest that it be viewed as a must-do investment. (and fair warning: any tech who shows up to help me with any system better bring a toothbrush, cause it won't be a quick in-n-out trip) We'll be cutting some mats for sale before they get back on the plane.

a question: both the Gunnar and Fletcher systems tout their easy blade changes. Silence from the Wizard website-what do you do to change a Wizard blade?
 
po'framer,

The Fletcher F-6100 price includes the tech coming to set up the machine and train - usually 2 days.

There are 6 pages of clip art in the F-6100 software.

[This message has been edited by Scarfinger (edited April 25, 2001).]
 
po'framer, it's really easy to change blades on the Wizard. I don't know how it compares to the other cutters.
 
po'framer, it's really easy to change blades on the Wizard. I don't know how it compares to the other cutters.
 
Wizard blades are a pain to change compared to the Fletcher. And Fletcher maintains quality control on their blade length which Wizard does not do. Wizard blades can be several thousandths shorter or longer from the previous blade. That means you don't necessarily have the phillips screw in the right position when you change a blade or different brands of matboard and then get one of those notorious corner swoops halfway across the mat.... or overcuts which are a no-no at our place. Or test a pattern on flaw board, then change blade to cut the expensive suede.... oops... the new blade was a little longer than the test cut..... wonder where the overcuts came from.... or the swoops....

My bank note on the Fletcher is $392.61 per month which is no difference relative to the Wizard payment.

Like others have said.... more fuel for the pissin' contest. The biggest difference in the long run will be service.... or lack of.

Rick
 
I find the blade on Wizard as easy to change as the blade on my Fletcher 2100(Mat cutter)and way easier to change than the blade on my Fletcher 3000 (wall cutter)a real pain!

My problem with anything computerized is my narrow mind. I just found out I shouldn't call my daughter cute--the word is cool... And I was a child of cool and groovy. My mind is closing faster as I grow older.

I thought everything I wanted to do on the Wizard would be on a template. As Cody pointed out, cutting two openings overlapping, answered my dilemma. Now I think of this machine a bit different. I CAN actually be creative in how I want this machine to work for me. I did a mat today I previously thought the machine was incapable of, in no time flat. It wasn't the machine that was incapable, it was me.

I do agree that you pay for what you get. I saw the Fletcher demonstrated and it IS a dream machine. But for now, Wizard offered an affordable lease, I just need to open up to its capabilities.

This doesn't mean I won't grumble about it again--if I get stressed--I'll be back!
 
FF, thanks for that particular insight. You must have bought yours instead of leasing it?

You're absolutely right about the service part; that's the real difference in most business issues today
 
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