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Ylva

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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Artemis Custom Framing
I have an original piece of art on heavy watercolor paper.

Image is 35 3/4 x 18 3/4
Paper is 38 x 22 1/2

Goes into a frame 37 1/4 x 20 1/4 (mat with 3/4" border)

Tried to talk customer out of it, but it needs to go on a wall and is not to exceed 40" and she insists on this design. (and she is a very good nice customer so I want to keep her happy and not argue too much)

Should I try to fold the paper inwards? It is quite heavy and not easy to fold.
Should I ask for permission to cut the paper to size? I know you're not supposed to do this.

How would you handle this?
 
Is the artist close by? If so call them and ask them to trim the paper or ask permission to trim it yourself. My artist usually give me permission to trim as they don't want to come it to do it. If they say no, then tell the customer
 
If you took something apart done by someone else....and saw a folded watercolor....I think it would give you a different impression of the framer than if you just saw something cut.

Folding, I suppose, really is no more harmful than cutting...but I think folding would look a lot worse (and be more mess to have to work around).

I'd opt for cutting it....and having the customer sign a release. (I'd also be tempted to hide a copy of it inside the framed piece.)
 
I'm not a fan of the folding either, but that way you can always restore the whole paper again. But I would also have a much harder time trying to hinge this thing with all that excess paper in the way....

I have sent my customer an email, requesting contact information for this artist. Luckily there is no hurry, as she is one of my summer customers and won't be back until next spring.
 
Ylva said:
Image is 35 3/4 x 18 3/4
Paper is 38 x 22 1/2

Goes into a frame 37 1/4 x 20 1/4 (mat with 3/4" border)
Click to expand...

No it doesn't.
 
If I read the dimensions right, you're not going to be trimming any of the image area of the piece, just the whitespace.

I would not fold it; I would ask the customer for permission to trim the piece. Folding is as permanent as trimming, while being much harder to fit. Having the customer sign a release would probably be a good idea, though.

I don't think the artist needs to be brought in on this, since once again you're not touching the image area...
 
jim_p said:
If I read the dimensions right, you're not going to be trimming any of the image area of the piece, just the whitespace.

I would not fold it; I would ask the customer for permission to trim the piece. Folding is as permanent as trimming, while being much harder to fit. Having the customer sign a release would probably be a good idea, though.

I don't think the artist needs to be brought in on this, since once again you're not touching the image area...
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Yes, you read it right. I would be trimming off the white of the paper. Problem is, that that is considered to be part of the artwork, believe it or not. Any trimming is considered altering the art work, which is of course a 'no-no'. Seems quite silly, I know since we're not talking about the image itself.
 
Folding watercolor paper is tantamount to cutting it and neither should be done by a framer. Either can expose the framer to potential risk. The client request is not reasonable.


Hugh
 
It is also a pretty bad design with 1/2" of mat showing. Think of how hard it will be to get that sucker square inthe frame if you use an 1/8" allowance.
 
Go to the customers hizzle and find someplace better to hang the watercolor then sell them an Artaissance print on paper to fit the current space.
 
mik said:
Is the artist close by? If so call them and ask them to trim the paper or ask permission to trim it yourself. My artist usually give me permission to trim as they don't want to come it to do it. If they say no, then tell the customer
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If the customer bought and paid for the piece, why should the artist factor in to the equation at all. If I (as the customer)want to throw my money away I will. It's that simple. If a customer wants to pay me to cut a piece of paper for them, I will gladly do it. If the artist came in and screamed at me (worst case scenario) I would simply remind them that it is no longer their possession to have any say about.
I just so don't get why anyone would think they have the right to dictate how someone else treats an item they bought and paid for!:shrug:
 
In more than a few states, the artist still has the rights to the art and any altering it would be grounds for a lawsuit from the artist.

I know... it sounds stupid but that is how it is. You couldn't legally paint a bulls eye on the art and use it for a dart board as that is altering the original intent of the artist. If an artist prints onto a piece of paper that has a 6" border on the bottom, we, as framers have to assume that is how he wanted the piece to look.

We can mat close to the art but we are supposed to mat it so ALL of the paper is in the frame and not folded.

Of course, all this is based on the artist finding out that his work was altered.

I agree... let the customer cut it if she is insistent on it being that size.
This lets you off the hook for any liability.
 
Ylva said:
...she insists on this design. (and she is a very good nice customer so I want to keep her happy and not argue too much)...How would you handle this?
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Since you asked:icon9:

Do as Edie says and hand the scissiors to the customer. If she really is a "good nice customer", she will understand why you should refuse to alter the art.

She may think you're too concerned, but she'll respect you in the morning.
 
framah said:
In more than a few states, the artist still has the rights to the art and any altering it would be grounds for a lawsuit from the artist.
Click to expand...
framah said:
We can mat close to the art but we are supposed to mat it so ALL of the paper is in the frame and not folded.

Of course, all this is based on the artist finding out that his work was altered.
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The copyright laws are meant for public display and presentation. By this interpretation, we cannot frame any art unless we are the artist because that too is altering the look of the piece.

framah said:
You couldn't legally paint a bulls eye on the art and use it for a dart board as that is altering the original intent of the artist.
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It only wouldn't be legal if you were going to hang it in a public place.
What any person chooses to do to a piece of art that is going to hang in their own home does not fall under the same rules. After all there is still the right of privacy.
 
Jim Miller said:
Do as Edie says and hand the scissiors to the customer. If she really is a "good nice customer", she will understand why you should refuse to alter the art.

She may think you're too concerned, but she'll respect you in the morning.
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I absolutely agree... and I have done this. I explain that it's against the PPFA Code of Ethics for me to irreversably alter the art, and explain the potential value consequences of doing it. If they think they are committed to the cut-down, I'll say that only if it were presented to me already at that size could I frame it to meet their desires; then give them the opportunity to do the deed. Most of the time, when they see I'm serious, they back down and take my advice. I have had a few "cutters", though. :eek: (Fortunately not on anything that's probably a truly important piece...although who knows?)
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
A mat that with that width margin doesn't really fulfill it's function on a practical level. The edges of the paper are too close to the outside and will will be crimped too firmly. No room to move. It's a no-no with heavy watercolor paper. Before very long it will look like a relief map of the Himalayas. The only way is to drymount it and this really is a no-no as well. Even if you trimmed the paper you are still going to have problems. A piece of paper that size needs at least 3" of elbow room.

Of course it's all very simple to the customer. :icon11: She may not be very happy if you refuse to do it to that size limit, but I suspect she will be less happy when her painting goes all wavy.
 
Sorry if I'm going off the deep end...but this one has really rubbed me wrong.

While I respect the PPFA, I believe their code of ethics isn't encompassing. It's meant to protect how artwork should be treated, sure. It's our responsibility to treat the artwork with proper care...and anything the customer requests that go against that should be duly noted and explained...PPFA or no PPFA. But that's it. And yes...I've had plenty of customers change their mind after I explain the design flaws and other deficits it would cause. But in the end, the piece belongs to the customer.

As far as copyrights go, it applies to modifying the form of the artwork medium. If you buy a calendar, its a calendar. It's not a open edition print. That's modification. If they have a print cut, its the same medium.

They ask, I do.

The same thing with the matting width...it was determined by the size of the image and the restrictions placed on the overall size by the customer. Inform them its not an ideal design, true...but in the end...please don't blame her for doing what the customer wants.

Anyone wishing to turn away business because they don't want to cut (at the customer's request), please...send them to me. And the world and PPFA can sit and wonder why membership lists are shrinking and the framing industry is dwindling. What good is a custom service if its not servicing the customer's requests?

I'll inform them of the proper standards ... and then I'll cut their print and have a new customer. We'll all get what we want.

:soapbox:
 
Wouldn't that be the same thing as a plastic surgeon performing unnecessary or inappropriate surgery? Codes of ethics are there for a reason. It is great to to arrive at compromises, but just because someone wants something doesn't mean it should be done.
 
Rebecca said:
Wouldn't that be the same thing as a plastic surgeon performing unnecessary or inappropriate surgery? Codes of ethics are there for a reason. It is great to to arrive at compromises, but just because someone wants something doesn't mean it should be done.
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It's really only the same thing if you fully equate the importance of picture framing to medical science. Do you? Seriously? :popc:

Framing isn't life or death.

Neither is diminished value (if decided by the customer, not the framer).

Framing is my life. I eat, breathe and sleep it. But I don't count on it being that to all of my customers. And for those to whom it isn't, compromises are appropriate.
 
I tell people that want me to cut their artwork this: "In the late 19th century, Van Gogh wasn't very well known. He sold many of his works for pennies. Now they are worth tens of millions. I don't want to be known as the guy that took scissors to the last known watercolor by the posthumously famous _______. Here are the scissors."
 
To all the scissor people :)

Um....whose scissors does the customer use????

Would the PPFA approve of you loaning scissors to destroy artwork? ;)

Or do you loan a 'Non-PPFA' pair specified for the destruction of artwork?

Or do they bring their own scissors and then step outside?

;)
 
janetj1968 said:
Framing isn't life or death.

Neither is diminished value (if decided by the customer, not the framer).

Framing is my life. I eat, breathe and sleep it. But I don't count on it being that to all of my customers. And for those to whom it isn't, compromises are appropriate.
Click to expand...

I read this whole thread tonight and was shaking my head until I read your post, Jan. Well said. The art belongs to the customer. If the customer wants me to trim the border for decorative purposes, who am I to argue? I don't go through the drama of handing the customer the scissors. Customer initials the cutting request and we are done. This happens rarely, because the border on original art is usually not excessive, but of course we will trim art borders at the owners request.
 
Handing the scissors to the customer, only provides them with the means... they could have just moved it to the edge of the table and torn it.

It places the onerous on the owner of the art piece. Actually the artist in selling the piece releases any and all control of the piece itself.... and only retains the rights to the images reproduction. So if the customer wanted to custom wrap a toilet with their original TK, and display it in their window... TK may not like it... but there is nothing he can do about it.

Who knows... it could just go up in value. :icone11:

But back to PPFA Guidlines... they are not there out of respect for the art. Let me stress that "THEY ARE NOT THERE OUT OF RESPECT FOR THE ART".
When that sinks in... you will realize that they are there 100% in your interest; and your interest alone.
 
They want it cut, I'll cut it. Signed limited edition print came in 2 days ago, cut the top off of it before I even put it away. If they wanted me to fold it up and cut paper dolls out of it, I'd do that too. I explain everything to the customer about value and so forth, but I do whatever they want me to do in the end.
 
..and if, later they find that their limited edition art WOULD have been worth alot of money if only it hadn't been cut, guess who they would sue??

A release signed by the customer isn't worth the paper it is written on when a sharp lawyer gets involved.

Once again... if they want it cut let them do it, if for no other reason than to cover your tookus.

Sure, we all want the money but what good is it if later some unscrupulous person decides to sue you for everything you have.
 
There is a thing called Moral rights which are protected by the federal Visual Artists Rights Act as well as various state laws.
One of these rights is:

Rights of integrity: the right to prevent intentional distortion, mutilation, or other modification of the artwork, and to prevent the intentional or grossly negligent destruction of a work of recognized stature. There are various exceptions, including modifications caused by conservation or preservation of the work, and special provisions for dealing with a work, such as a mural or embedded sculpture, that cannot be remove from a building without causing substantial harm to the work.

Under federal law, moral rights last for the life of the artist. Under California law, they last for life plus 50 years. Under both statutes these rights cannot be assigned away, but they can be waived. Unfortunately, it is becoming common practice to include waiver of moral rights in contracts which commission works of fine art.

This is what I was referring to when I posted earlier.
 
That was an interesting post.

What's even more interesting is that the visual rights as such is retained by the artist, not the consumer.

These rights were also made to protect the artist and the artist's quality integrity.

So if I modified a work of art, by cutting it (by the owner's permission) then the only person who could sue me is the artist himself....because one cannot sue without owning rights. The loss of monetary value to the consumer is covered with their signature on my waiver.

Reading this does make me widen my 'cut' statement such as "I assume all responsibility, including financially, against Visual Artists Rights or otherwise caused by the modification of artwork".

If I were, however, a testy artist whose work had been 'destroyed' by cutting, the first person I would sue would be the consumer who enabled it. The artist would have to proof that the integrity of the piece was compromised by losing hidden white space and that it was harmful to his/her reputation. The lawsuit has nothing about the monetary value that the print has lost, which is the only thing the consumer would be concerned with. It would be about the loss that the artist has suffered because of the actual event.
 
Oh puhleeze!

I just LOVE lawyers being involved with the arts...:icon11:

Yes I understand the concerns about liability and all...that being the real reasons behind all this, like eveything else...MONEY.

Do you REALLY think those laws are to protect the aesthetic rights of the artist?? Bull####! They are put there to protect the possible appreciation of artwork for people buying art as an investment or "trophy".

Extra paper? Part of the artists intention? Highly doubtful. More like they painted on that size paper and didn't want to bother trimming the excess!

Someone buys one of my paintings...yes I retain reproduction rights, but what they do with the painting once they have paid me for it...that is not my concern. Does a fine custom furniture maker who...lets say creates a custom table for thousands of dollars, easily as much money as many paintings, have some sort of rights if the owner decides to refinish it in a different color, or do something else to it??? Furniture of that calibre is as much a work of art as a painting!

I would have written permission and signed by the customer. I wouldn't make them do the cutting.

This goes along with my feelings on other conservation practices, while I appreciate their intentions, they sometimes get to the point of WHY even frame something for display at all?? Let's photograph EVERYTHING, and put the originals away in a dark place. Gee...I guess the artist intended THAT also!

OK...I will step down now...:soapbox:
 
evartpat said:
I
This goes along with my feelings on other conservation practices, while I appreciate their intentions, they sometimes get to the point of WHY even frame something for display at all?? Let's photograph EVERYTHING, and put the originals away in a dark place. Gee...I guess the artist intended THAT also!
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you said until you got to this part, and I have to ask....Have you talked with conservators who have implied this or is this based on the rules as set forth by various groups for "conservation framing"?

Tamby
 
TEKniques said:
I agree with everything you said until you got to this part, and I have to ask....Have you talked with conservators who have implied this or is this based on the rules as set forth by various groups for "conservation framing"?

Tamby
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I think that is known as a strawman argument. Exaggerating or distorting a position to make it easier to ridicule and argue against.
 
TEKniques said:
I agree with everything you said until you got to this part, and I have to ask....Have you talked with conservators who have implied this or is this based on the rules as set forth by various groups for "conservation framing"?

Tamby
Click to expand...

In some cases it has been brought up, and for good reason. I do not deny that. I was just using that example to make a point of how often there is the pressuring for conservation practices on EVERYTHING.

Not all art is created equal...nor are all clients either. I watch some of the discussions of how to mount things and its all good advice, but sometimes the art involved is not all that valuable to the customer, and they don't have the will or the bucks to pay for some of the suggested techniques.

It all smacks of CPF Ivory Tower mentality at times. All excellent in theory, but not always applicable to the real world...at least for those of us in more "pedestrian" framing. All fine and good if you have wealthy customers, but I would say most of us don't have many of those.

I am not advocating not giving the client the choice, but for cripes sake! Respect his refusal to do so!
 
...or as I'm want to say...

"No Nori paste and mulberry hinges for refrigerator art!!"

Sometimes, all they want is to enjoy the art, so dry mount it and be done with it.

All I'm saying is that we still need to know the rules so we are legally safe. Then we can do what the customer wants without fear of future repercussions.

Or make sure that you are dead before it is discovered.:faintthud:
 
FramerDave said:
I think that is known as a strawman argument. Exaggerating or distorting a position to make it easier to ridicule and argue against.
Click to expand...

Actually, I was asking for clarification because I know of some other framers (not necessarily on the grumble) and even sales reps who are under the notion that using only "acid-free" is the way to achieve conservation framing, regardless of the work and/or materials and they also believe and have argued that the only way museums display pieces is by storing away originals with only reproductions on display.

It was not intended in the way you took it.
 
Maybe I missed this suggestion along the line. I've done this by widening the rabbet with a filet or even carving it out. Sounds like you have room for this. I think.
 
We're assuming that Yiva's customer has money to spend on carving or fillets or other accomodations? Folks, we have a recession going on here! The customer has a piece of art, a watercolor, say that she bought in Portofino, or a pastel that she bought at a charity auction. She wants it to hang between two doors in her dining room. She only has so much room.

Are you really going to turn this work away or make her feel uncomfortable by either talking her out of trimming it or handing her a pair of scissors to cut down her own work, undoubtedly badly with an uneven edge? Or are you going to ask her permission, and later give it a clean professional cut? Would YOU use scissors on it? And who can proove who held the scissors when it is opened 20 years later and someone is agast that the white border is 2" rather than 3"? Please.

If you talk her out of it and frame it with a larger mat, she may agree but the next time she needs a framer to accomodate her framing specs, it won't be you because she won't want to go through THAT song and dance again.

The is goes back to the "How much preservation do you want?" topic.
 
I am officially subliminally summoning Ron here to tell his tale about trimming down someone's artwork. I'm not saying he did it, but he has a story that will be food for thought.

If you are going to trim on demand, be aware of the risks.

Ron?

Ron?

edie the sendingoutvibes goddess
 
Interesting thread because I just had something similar occur. It was a Chinese silk sandwiched between two glass panes and edge taped, then pushed into a c-channel frame.

The customer wanted me to "trim that tape stuff" that was showing from under the rabbet. I handed her a single edge blade and told her I wouldn't do it but she could. She trimmed her little heart out, even after I removed the frame. She balked at first but I was adamant.

You might have guessed: her husband is a very prominent lawyer.

I'd hand the customer the scissors, in every case, because I feel I have much less to lose.
 
MerpsMom said:
Interesting thread because I just had something similar occur. It was a Chinese silk sandwiched between two glass panes and edge taped, then pushed into a c-channel frame.

The customer wanted me to "trim that tape stuff" that was showing from under the rabbet. I handed her a single edge blade and told her I wouldn't do it but she could. She trimmed her little heart out, even after I removed the frame. She balked at first but I was adamant.

You might have guessed: her husband is a very prominent lawyer.
Click to expand...

You're lucky she didn't slice herself with the blade that you provided :)
 
I do understand what the cutters are saying, and chose the plastic surgeon analogy because they are not (for the most part) life and death. And we have all seen the terrible results of surgeons who said yes when they should have said no.

Since framing is not a regulated industry anyone can do anything. That makes it hard for consumers to make a wise choice, especially a consumer who is not up on best practices. They rely on the framer to have that knowledge. Codes of ethics are a good tool, and give the framer a roadmap. There are always murkey waters, but the COE helps one navigate.

Generally speaking, working within established guidelines gives the consumer confidence in the judgement of the service provider. When I ask for something in an area I am not all that familiar with (e.g. home rennovation or specialized gardening projects, or chosing the style of dress that best suits me) I appreciate it when the provider gives me the benefit of their expertise. I appreciate it when they tell me I am wrong, why I am wrong, and help me come up with a better solution.

The customer is not always right.

How often have we not returned to the dress shop that steered us wrong in order to make a sale? It is hard to quantify this, but from my own experience, risking a sale for good reason can lead to increased business down the road.

BTW it is possible to use a deep frame and BEND edges rather than cut them.
 
I have contacted the customer, offering a few other options.

She is now upset with me; she had done things with other framers in the past and this has never come up and has never been an issue, even cutting into the image sometimes to fit a certain space.

So, I will reimburse her money, have lost a customer (she is a summer resident here), but my reputation is still intact (highly sarcastically meant).

Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion, but also alarming about what we know and don't know.
 
FramerDave said:
She got upset with you? Did you tell her flat out that you wouldn't do it, or did you simply express your concerns and present her with the options and their up and downsides?
Click to expand...

I offered her several other options. I have contacted the original artist to see if I can get her permission (signed letter) but haven't heard back. Since I haven't heard back, I offered customer 2 other options, one within the width limit that she wanted, and one that would look spectaculair but would exceed the width.

She is simply upset because she doesn't understand the big deal. I explained it again and she just sent me an email to thank me for the explanation.
So, I will have to wait until I hear from the artist.... again, I do like this customer and want to make her happy, even if the design is not something I like, or will do the art justice.
 
Ylva said:
She is simply upset because she doesn't understand the big deal.
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I'm so sorry, Ylva.

You didn't do anything wrong....and I hope you hear back from the artist and they're okay with the modification.

At the very least part of the problem is because another framer never informed her that cutting a print was an issue at all. And she should have been told way before now.

The only thing that makes me wonder, though, if she's been so happy with all of her previous framers....why she took it somewhere else to begin with (other than just being somewhere else for the summer).

If she's angry with you, its at least partially because her anger is misdirected. Who knows what this lady has already spent in prints now that could be absolutely worthless.

(It's the same anger you find when you're pointing out the damage done by non-conservation quality materials on items that were framed by someone else.)

Next time offer three solutions instead of two:
1. Talk to the artist
2. Redesign
3. Cut

This will bail you out, regardless of what the customer decides.
 
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