How to trim off frame lip?

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Twin2

Twin2

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Posts
2,263
Loc
Bedford, Nova Scotia
On occasion, when I need extra depth for a black coloured frame, I will attach a simple box-style black frame (usually Nurre-Caxton 590-04) to the back of the front frame using multi-points and screws. This is after I've trimmed off the frame lip so that it is basically like a pre-finished 1x2. The frames that I've done this for haven't been too big or too many so far, and I've just used a heavy duty utility knife to cut off the lip (scoring many times!). I tried using a small chisel and hitting it with a hammer to cut off the lip, but I found that it split the wood too much and didn't give a smooth edge.

Can anyone offer any easier suggestions to remove the frame lip, or how I can attach the extension frame to the front frame without having to remove the lip at all? I just finished doing a 15x21 size frame and my arm and stomach muscles are sore from all that scoring :icon9:

Thanks!
 

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Jerome, I guess I should have mentioned I don't have a table or band saw...
 
I agree with a plane if you have no power equipment - if the rabbit is not gessoed. Gesso will destroy the edge of the plane's blade quickly.
 
Why do you need to trim the lip? From your pictures, I would guess you trim it because you're using flexible points for your attachment. The problem is: flexible points are good for holding something in across their points. The way you're using them, they can easily pull out of the facing frame and the back moulding you're adding will fall off.

I would leave the lip, and either use a pocket screw or glue and brad nailer to attach the back frame.
 
As for a plane, I do have a bull-nose plane, but I'm thinking that may be just as hard for me as the scoring.


Richard, I do glue the extension frame to the front frame as well. I used to use screw eyes instead of the multi points (screwing the eye into the back of the front frame and then putting the screw through the eye into the extension frame), but then I read how some framers use the multi-points - see this thread...

http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=33257&highlight=multi+points

Gosh, I'm wondering now, if I misunderstood how the multi-points were being used :eek:

I've always been afraid of brad nailing through the front of the frame...
 
For the combination shown in your photos, I would leave the lip on the moulding and rough-up the top surface of it, in order to improve glue adhesion. From the back of the added moulding, I would carefully drill holes and install flathead screws long enough to penetrate at least half-way through the cap moulding. Two screws on each rail would probably be sufficient, or maybe 8" to 10" apart on a larger frame.
 
With a stacked framed, the 2nd frame is sitting inside the rabbet of the top frame. Then you're multipoint can be shot into the outside edge of the moulding, and screwed into the top frame.

In your case, the glue is keeping it together. But the multipoints are offering no mechanical advantage.

You shouldn't need to worry about shooting a brad through the front if you measure how much depth you have available, choose your brad length, and test the air pressure on a scrap to see how much it will sink the brad.

Personally, I would probably use pocket screws. Of course, you may need to trim the lip in that case, because the angle of the pocket may cause the screw to protrude out the backside.
 
Jim, I've done the flathead screw method for shorter extension boxes, but hadn't tried it for this deeper moulding. I do rough up the top surface of it to improve glue adhesion, though.

Richard Darling said:
With a stacked framed, the 2nd frame is sitting inside the rabbet of the top frame. Then you're multipoint can be shot into the outside edge of the moulding, and screwed into the top frame.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification, Richard. That is what I thought after re-reading that thread again this morning - stupid me :faintthud:


So, I'm awfully glad that I asked this question as I wouldn't have realized that I was attaching the extension frame the wrong way!!! Should I be worried about the few other frames that I've done this way? I've always used wood glue and the frames haven't been really big or heavy...
 
I wouldn't remove the lip either but Ive been looking for a use for this moulding from Verbec it comes in 9 colors
 

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Why not use the back frame with the lip to the back. Use a black mat in the "opening" and black headed screws to hold the back frame to the front frame. I wouldn't glue it down either, in case the glass ever needs replacing.

I'd even suggest a beefier back frame, one that would sit closer to the edge of the top frame.
 
Agree no need to trim off lip for doing what you have displayed.

Secure attachment is easy with a few long screws. Pre-drill, countersink. No fuss, no muss, solid.

For those few cases when you do want to trim off a lip, or maybe take off the bump on some strainer stock why not add a small bandsaw to your workshop. A 10" bandsaw is inexpensive, takes up little space, is easy to move around if need be, operates quietly, is easy to use, and with an attached fence makes simple work of trimming an unwanted lip. It also does not pose the kickback risk of an incorrectly operated table saw. On top of that it avoids the need for clamping the moulding if you use a plane. Once you have one you'll find all manner of additional uses!

For less than $200 you can add a lot of versatility with something like this Craftsman unit:
00921400000-1
 
Neither of our band saws will give a good enough cut for joining. I suppose you could plane the cut with a jointer plane but that would cost more than the band saw and would not necessairly yield a straight cut. A table saw is pretty much the only option.
 
Sears has a great little portable table saw (21806) that folds to a compact size. Details on Sears.com search for model #.
 
Bob Doyle said:
Then how do you avoid scarring the side of the moulding when rubbing it against the fence?
Click to expand...

I haven't had a problem with that on the saw I recommended above. I use it regularly to cut glass slots in mouldings for building display cases.:p

I tape a sheet of tile board on the table and bring the blade up through it to avoid the gap around the blade.
 
Warren Tucker said:
Neither of our band saws will give a good enough cut for joining. I suppose you could plane the cut with a jointer plane but that would cost more than the band saw and would not necessairly yield a straight cut. A table saw is pretty much the only option.
Click to expand...

She's only talking about trimming off the lip to get it out of the way - the quality of the cut is not that critical - it's not for a join per se.
 
Pat Murphey said:
I haven't had a problem with that on the saw I recommended above. I use it regularly to cut glass slots in mouldings for building display cases.:p
Click to expand...

Mine almost as old as I am, and almost as scuffed up! And probably truth be told as well cared for. Maybe I should look into anew table saw, although I really do want a band saw......
 
Wow, a lot of great information, guys. Thanks!

I went out and bought a package of long screws to use for this frame that I'm working on now. I'll re-think how I'll do these extension frames in the future given all the advice I've received.

I looked back at my records and I had only used the multipoints on 2 previous frames - both around 16x20 size and not very heavy. I used the same wood glue as I used for joining my frames (Lee Valley Tools, Cabinetmakers's Glue - 2002 GF).

Andrew, I may look into purchasing a small bandsaw for my shop. Like you said - it may come in handy for other things...
 
For cuts like this I use a router table with a bearing guided template bit. The bearing moves along the inside of the rabbet so no finished part of the moulding gets scratched. The cut is smooth and needs no sanding. There is no dust if the router table is set up right with the bit in a split fence with shop vac connected to the back of the split fence. A router table set up like this is great for making rabbets a little deeper when needed. We use the router table regularly. I like the table from Lee Valley tools which is small, solid, has a great split fence, and comes with a magnetic dust chute.

We have all the woodworking tools, bandsaw, tablesaw, jointer, planer, and I still turn to the router table for these cuts.
 
Why not save yourself some time and effort and get a better (IMHO) look to boot, by, instead of using a deep rabetted moulding, using a wide (as necc) profile with a normal rabbet but mitreing it on its side.

That forms a lip for the outer (cap) moulding to sit in and you don't end up with a frame looking (IMHO) like a cuckoo clock!
 

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John,

I have never thought of or tried your method, but I may now. I stack moldings all of the time to make extra deep shadowboxes. I join mine together using biscuits, they make a strong bond without the worry of damaging the finish with screws or nails.

David
 
John, that would certainly work (and it does look better), but I haven't actually done one like that yet and would like to try one out for myself before tackling one for a customer. I must put that on my priority list of things to do so I'll have a wider range of options to offer my customers.

Do you just glue the two of them together or do you use any type of fasteners too? (as you may have guessed, I don't do a lot of stacked frames...)
 
Twin2 said:
Do you just glue the two of them together or do you use any type of fasteners too?
Click to expand...

Some say use nails only, so's the two frames can be easily separated, but I use wood glue AND nails (and line the rabbet to hide the nails) as far as I'm concerned the two mouldings become one.

The glass just drops in as normal and so is easy to remove whether the bond between the two frames is permanent or not.
 
RoboFramer said:
Why not save yourself some time and effort and get a better (IMHO) look to boot, by, instead of using a deep rabetted moulding, using a wide (as necc) profile with a normal rabbet but mitreing it on its side.

That forms a lip for the outer (cap) moulding to sit in and you don't end up with a frame looking (IMHO) like a cuckoo clock!
Click to expand...

I have the NY LJ Distribution Center, Munn Frameworks, and Forest Gallery trained to chop to that specification "to fit", because I often make the bases of display cases that way. :p
 
Bob Doyle said:
Then how do you avoid scarring the side of the moulding when rubbing it against the fence?
Click to expand...
Bob, I regularly use my table saw to cut mouldings down for a number of reasons. I take a strip of matboard and tape it to the fence and tape another piece to the table. Just use masking tape to hold one end of the matboard strip so it can easily be removed when not needed.
The back of the matboard is smooth and doesn't leave marks on the moulding.
 
I job just came up that was a good candidate for a stacked frame like Roboframer suggested.

I used Cornerweld wood glue to glue the two frames together and used bent infinity hangers to act like mini-L brackets and screwed the two frames together. Is this okay? (still not comfortable in trying out nailing the two together). The frame size is about 14 1/2 x 15 1/2 (extension box opening) and I used 4 infinity hangers per side (about 3-4 inches apart).

Also, do you allow any room for expansion for the cap frame to sit inside the extension frame (i.e. is there any difference in size between the opening of the extension frame and the outside dimension of the cap frame)? I ended up with a slight gap between the two (about 1/16"), but it isn't noticeable so I wasn't going to worry about it. Then I was thinking that perhaps there should be an ever so slight gap...
 

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That will hold together with no problem. The Corner Weld alone will hold it but the brackets will let you sleep nights.
 
Thanks, Jeff. Just wanted to double check I was on the right track this time :)
 
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