Question HOW TO TELL PAPER FROM OTHER MATS?

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Sherry Lee

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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I have some mat boards that are not marked. I was told they are paper but they feel better than paper mats.

Other than waiting a year to see if the core yellows, is there another way to tell if they are paper mats?
 
With the new "white core" stuff, you probably just have to take their word for it. White Core paper mats will be just as bad as the other stuff, but not turn.

nice uh?
 
LineCo sells a ph pen. write on the mat and it turns blue. Basically could also use a ph test kit for a swimming pool. I think you could dissolve some paper in distilled water and check for acidity. I have a ph pen but I don't know how long it is good for. I'm assuming at 4 years old it probably isn't too trustworthy anymore!
 
I'm just guessing but I thought acidity was a result of the board breaking down and not automatically present. If so testing a new buffered board may actually be more alkaline than acid until the buffer gets out gunned.

Another guess, I suspect that white core boards are no more dangerous than regular foamboard. Not long ago somebody really important who is on a really important board that researches really important things asked if anybody had ever seen art damaged by regular foamcore. I think one person said they had but couldn't be sure it was the foamboard. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 10 years that same really important board asks the same question of white core boards.

If they are not the white core boards then you can still look and see that they aren't bright white even if they are brand new
 
The problem with the pen is that many of the "paper mats" are neutral at manufacturing time and degrade over time. So, my understanding is that even a ph neutral reading isn't definitive.

A bad reading (try the edge) would indicate it's definitely bad, but a good reading may just mean it's not bad yet.
 
Jay and I posted at the same time. His comment re: foam board is very interesting. There is apparently evidence mounting that clay foam is not only NOT bad, but may actually be better than "acid free" foam boards for filler boards, because they have a better barrier paper.

However, the "paper" matboards are a different animal all together. Their core is alpha-cellulose and thus subject to how much or how little purifying/buffering is done. I don't think the two can be "grouped together" for discussion.
 
I've not seen white cores turn at all. They may be safe for different reasons but I have see no evidence that they are dangerous. Maybe one day but not yet.

Nobody considered regular fc for a long time. Now slowly slowly what was unspeakable before becomes plausible. I think we may see that again.
 
There is no question that the clay-coated surface paper of "regular" foamcore turns a tan color over time. Porosity issues aside, the surface paper on "acid-free" foamcore is of a higher quality and does not shift in color. I think the issue of clay-coated paper being a better barrier is moot because, as has often been stated, the only true barriers are glass and metal. The filler board is there for rigidity, not really as a barrier anyway.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
Suggestion on being able to tell rag boards from paper boards.

This can be a visual thing as some say experience.
some may be able to see this with just good eye sight
I suggest you use a 10x lupe if you have one.
If not a plain 3x magnifer will probably help.

Take a paper mat, fan & fray the corner look at the texture
Take a white core mat, fan & fray the corner look at the texture
Take a rag mat, fan & fray the corner look at the texture

You should be able to see the difference in the fibers of the different boards.
"There Mister Watson is how you can see the difference between a paper mat white core & rag mat." ( little spin on Sherlock Holmes LOL)
 
GUMBY said:
Suggestion on being able to tell rag boards from paper boards.

This can be a visual thing as some say experience.
some may be able to see this with just good eye sight
I suggest you use a 10x lupe if you have one.
If not a plain 3x magnifer will probably help.

Take a paper mat, fan & fray the corner look at the texture
Take a white core mat, fan & fray the corner look at the texture
Take a rag mat, fan & fray the corner look at the texture

You should be able to see the difference in the fibers of the different boards.
"There Mister Watson is how you can see the difference between a paper mat white core & rag mat." ( little spin on Sherlock Holmes LOL)
Click to expand...

Why aren't you Sherlock, GCF instead of Gumby, GCF??

I'll get right on that 'study'! Thanks!
 
Sherlock was not GREEN everyone knows that... LOL
 
And then how would you tell a difference between a white core and alpha?
 
Get the 10x lupe & you will understand.
 
GUMBY said:
Get the 10x lupe & you will understand.
Click to expand...

Well I guess that settles that.

What band of mat boards doesn't have numbers?

I have noticed that many cresents are coming with stickers instead of printing on the back. That only reinforces my theory that these boards may not be as different as advertised.
 
While a pH pen may be somewhat useful, there is a more complete test for unstable papers called “Tri-Test”.

It comes in a three bottle test kit which not only tests for pH, but also groundwood, lignin and rosin. You need only apply one drop or smear onto paper and watch for color changes. Since it only takes one drop of each bottle to run the test, if done discretely, the paper (mat) to be tested can be used after the test.

I think I bought it from United MFRs years ago, but I can’t find it in a more current catalog. The Tri-Test kit appears to have been commissioned (or endorsed) by the PPFA.
 
The critical issue is lignin content, rather than pH, since poor quality pulp can be made pH neutral if enough alkaline buffer is added. As lignin degrades, it produces peroxides, which can stain paper.


Hugh
 
Bob, so all my MDC boards that come in have been cut? I should call them.
 
Hugh - what's the "bottom line"???

preservator said:
The critical issue is lignin content, rather than pH, since poor quality pulp can be made pH neutral if enough alkaline buffer is added. As lignin degrades, it produces peroxides, which can stain paper.


Hugh
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So then Hugh, is there a way to know if an UNmarked mat board is a paper mat?
 
Jay, the thread was started because the boards aren't numbered. I'm assuming the poster has inherited cutoffs and possibly rag mats. When I cut a mat down to use it in a frame I sometimes use the numbered half, sometimes I use the other half. The fallout almost never has a number on it.

If I inherited someone elses cut offs or fallouts I would use them as backing boards as there is no way I would get out specifiers and try to figure out which mat was which! So knowing whether it was acidic would help me decide whether to use it as a backing board or whether to toss it out in to the recycling.
 
Bob Doyle said:
I'm assuming...
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Ah ha. Well I did deserve that comment. Silly me for not making such a leap.

Now back to boards that already come with no markings or with labels instead of print. Is that what caused this thread or what is cutoffs?

There are already boars with no markings so wondering if there were more isn't a stretch.
 
Jay H said:
Ah ha. Well I did deserve that comment.
Click to expand...

:)

I can't stand when I order boards and they aren't marked. I can deal withthe rags not being marked as I've gotten used to that, but when regular alpha mats come in unnumbered that drives me crazy!

gotta check each board off the invoice, write the numbers, put them away, then get the corner samples of the white, off white,just off whites from the caddy and decide which is which, then mark and put them away. Puts a crimp in the day...

But to have a huge stack of unnumbered boards and then to not know if the are paper or alpha, well, That's a big "what's my time worth" decision!
 
REASON FOR THE QUESTiON....

I have some of my fathers supplies from his closed frame shop and also from a friend that used to dabble in framing. In 10 years of business, I think I bought 2 paper mat boards - just don't like it!

But they have some big pieces, NUMBERS cut out (fallouts) that look good. I would certainly use it for back boards if it's not paper!!

THUS, my question!! (spot on Bob)

Glad you stayed with it Jay!
 
If they are old, then the paper will be brown on the outer edges, especially if they are beveled. Throw those out.

Get the ph pen. It'll stay grey if acidic, throw those out. purple line is "acid free" put those aside for the tri test kit. Or if it passes the acid etst, but still not sure, slip sheet.

The "good sized" paper mats can be good slip sheets, burn through them. small ones can be given away or more likely recycled. (with mixed paper or office paper in my towns)

Oh and be ruthless! otherwise your kids will be posting this question years from now!
 
If one can not be sure that the board is lignin-free, it is much safer to use that board as a back mat, as has been suggested, since it is the end grain that is exposed, when a window is cut that will pose the greatest problem.


Hugh
 
Moral of the story: When you cut a mat, if you intend to keep and possibly reuse the fallout, number it immediately while you have the work order right there to refer to. Write the number on the back in a corner that will be easily accessed in your storage system. Two seconds of work now will save you a lot of valuable time and aggravation later.
:cool: Rick
 
Rick Granick said:
Moral of the story: When you cut a mat, if you intend to keep and possibly reuse the fallout, number it immediately while you have the work order right there to refer to. Write the number on the back in a corner that will be easily accessed in your storage system. Two seconds of work now will save you a lot of valuable time and aggravation later.
:cool: Rick
Click to expand...

This is the subject of the new memo to my staff. Leaning up against the CMC is a big stack of unnumbered fallouts. Now I may be able to tell a Newport Blue just by looking at it but I get really hazy in the whites. By the way, I have to give out this memo every couple of years, more with turnover....sigh....
 
Jay H said:
... Not long ago somebody really important who is on a really important board that researches really important things asked if anybody had ever seen art damaged by regular foamcore. I think one person said they had but couldn't be sure it was the foamboard. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 10 years that same really important board asks the same question of white core boards....
Click to expand...


Shouldn't that be really important white core boards
 
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