Opinions Wanted How Much Would it Cost to Fix Crescent Rag

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Jeff Rodier

Jeff Rodier

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 28, 2005
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Myrtle Beach, S.C.
My question is how much would it cost to bring Crescent Rag back up to acceptable standards. Crescent has always been a strong force in the Ragmat industry and therefore many framers go to them first.

If Crescent were to improve the density of the board and it cost a little more would framers pay the difference. Now the next question is would it take 50 cents at our prices or closer to a dollar. How much of a price increase would be acceptable to see the product back where it used to be in terms of quality.
 
That's a yes to both! The worst is when I cut the bevel and the fluff has been cut in half in the middle of the bevel. I can almost be willing to scan a sheet for flecks, x them and cut out a good mat from the "waste", but when the flecks show up after it's cut, it's like salt in a wound...

I haven't had the "wimpy" mats the others complain about, but I do get an inordinate amount of "flawed" boards. Expensive flawed boards. Oh and Bainbridge isn't perfect either so I do use Crescent still. I just keep in mind that I might have to order an extra board and get resntful about that.
 
Okay, I'll just say it.

Hardly anything to get the core up to our standards, I bet. Probably less than $.50/$1.00 a board.

If they create a new line of Rag, with better (old) standards... they risk an obvious abandonment of their original line (which many framers are doing on their own). An admission of a problem of this scope publicly (I think its why we haven't heard anything unless we've asked) could be catastrophic in terms of them having millions of dollars in warehoused board that couldn't sell. That would anger their distributors beyond repair. They can't feasibly flush their entire supply line. It's just too expensive and until the board is cut, anybody's guess as to whether its actually bad or not.

They have already attempted to cycle 'new core' it into the existing lines...but its still not up to par either. Trying to get in a good sheet of board was like rolling dice. It got too expensive for me and I bowed out... the 'replacement' board I got from Crescent was just as bad, if not worse than the original. So if the core had actually been fixed the first time around, it might've been an acceptable solution. But now we've got multiple runs of bad core in the same line already.

So how much would it cost them to do a new core in a new line? Probably EVERYTHING in terms of their relationships with their distributors and existing stock....our $.50/$1.00 offer per board won't touch it.

They're darned if they do and darned if they don't right now.

Economically, it has to be cheaper for them to continue as a whole with what they have...otherwise they wouldn't. Evidently, the few framers its cost them isn't greater than their cost of replacing all this bad product. For now.
 
A Case of RBS

I thought that Crescent Select would not have the same problems, but yesterday it did. Ragged Bevel Syndrome. Even the Tru Vu framed sample I received today had a case of RBS.
 
Oh the good ol stiff rag days....

I also can remember when the Crescent 1100 series rag board was much more dense and stiffer. The board was ideal for french details with very little bleeding of paint. Indeed, their modern board seems to have more air fluff inside, less material. I also notice more ragged edges if the blade is not fresh.

Bainbridge has also modified their composition of the 8800 series rag board recently. It's a bit lighter yet stiffer. Perhaps more glue, less cotton? However, the new 8800 8 ply board is easier to cut without hooks or ragged edges.
 
Jeff, I don't know if Crescent cares what we think. They sell a lot of board here and overseas that a few of us here don't really bother them. There are so many framers that don't have the knowledge, experience, and have been around long enough to know that there has been a change to the mat board quality. And then again, there are many framers that wouldn't complain if they got hung with a new rope, or if they wanted to complain wouldn't know who to complain to. I've also notice that on the CMC the cuts are not good (mainly on the rags) but on the straight line cutter they are good - I don't know if anyone else has noticed that but maybe it is just my imagination. I've been starting to use more Bainbridge rags and don't have the problem. Just my two cents.
 
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When ever I read comments about these problem I wonder?

A. What type of cutter are you using?

B. Type and brand of blade?

C. What are you useing behind the board, slip sheet?
How often is the slipsheet changed?

D. How often do you change the blade?

E. Do you resharpen your old blades? I have worked for a guy that did this, I stayed 3 hours and quit, cheap framer that he was.

I use a Wizard 8000 and change the blade after 3 - 4 mats and have not seen any of the things discussed here. I use 95% Crescent rag boards and 5% Bainbridge.

framer
 
Crescent does care what we think and the whole issue comes down to price. If Crescent were confident that we would absorb the cost of the improvement they would make it.

So what this comes down to is how much would we as framers be willing to help them out in the cost of the improvement. I would like to hear some honest opinions on this issue because Crescent is always watching what we discuss on the Grumble.
 
Give them a call. I know that in the past they have been very responsive when I've called about problems, even going so far as to follow up with a couple phone calls. They have always seemed genuinely interested in input to me
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* a couple of new responses before I posted due to being distracted by on of them #### customers. How's a fellow to keep up with the Grumble anyway?*
 
Terry Hart cpf said:
Give them a call. I know that in the past they have been very responsive when I've called about problems, even going so far as to follow up with a couple phone calls. They have always seemed genuinely interested in input to me.
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I was hoping to have an open discussion here where it can be read by multiple layers of management. The problem has been well discussed with customer service and distributors but the question is do we think it is worth fixing and could we continue using the board at a slightly higher price.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
Crescent does care what we think and the whole issue comes down to price. If Crescent were confident that we would absorb the cost of the improvement they would make it.

So what this comes down to is how much would we as framers be willing to help them out in the cost of the improvement. I would like to hear some honest opinions on this issue because Crescent is always watching what we discuss on the Grumble.
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Jeff...I'd love to agree with you. I may be Crescent's greatest critic, but I was also their biggest fan. I miss the line, too. I have called and emailed Crescent multiple times...talked to everybody from QC to sales reps to distributors...and even emailed an outside agent in charge whose job is to establish better relationships with framers (with no response at all on the later). Although I've not named him, here's the quote that inspired me to write him "I would be hesitant to hold back my criticism if I thought something could be done better. I think for a company to be as good as possible, criticism needs to be encouraged, valued and listened to. As the customer, when a company is gigantic, there’s little chance that your opinion is going to make it to the person who makes the decisions." This was the beginning of February. I dropped the line in November. I've done all I can do. I've talked, called, emailed, begged and screamed. The rest is up to them.

If they cared, they would respond by fixing the problem...and set the price where it has to be to do it.

They just really...don't.

You have taken the initiative (as many of us have) to make them see we're not concerned about cost, we're concerned about quality.

If we got one single response statement from Crescent publicly about this, I'd agree with you.

I'll be the first one to apologize to Crescent if I'm wrong.
 
UzZx32QU said:
I use a Wizard 8000 and change the blade after 3 - 4 mats and have not seen any of the things discussed here. I use 95% Crescent rag boards and 5% Bainbridge.
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Ditto exactly. I also use all of their lines. Select and SRM is about 80% of my usage. I recently started using some Birkshires and haven't had much problems. So to answer the question, I wouldn't pay a penny more to fix a problem I wasn't aware of.
 
janetj1968 said:
They just really...don't.
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They do but during a severe recession they are trying to hold the line on price. All of the people in the offices we talk with can not change the manufacturing process. The people that read the Grumble can.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
They do but during a severe recession they are trying to hold the line on price. All of the people in the offices we talk with can not change the manufacturing process. The people that read the Grumble can.
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Why do you suppose they've never posted on the Grumble about it? Other manufacturers do. Is it bloody bitten tongues or apathy?
 
Jeff,
I will stick to the opinion that I don't think they care. Maybe they do but they have a strange way of showing it. One example, when they stopped handing out corners because they costed to much they never did tell our suppliers how much they would charge us to purchase a set - yes, I know they have been cutting corners to save money like all of us, they just started cutting those corners sooner. As far as their quality, the rags are the only boards I have problems with. I would estimate that about 70% of my mat sales are Crescent Select and up until I purchased a CMC I also used their rags. I use Crescent not because of their quality or price but because both of my local suppliers carry them and only one of my local suppliers carry Bainbridge. The other 30% of my sales at this time is Bainbridge. If Cresecent's cost increased .50 to 1.00 per board I wouldn't complain, I price my jobs by my cost and my customers wouldn't notice the small difference. I believe if Cresecent increased their cost above a $1.00 they would not be competitve with other mat board companies.
 
I have never had a problem getting a crisp bevel with the rags, both Crescent and Bainbridge. I use a .15 double sided blade. Now, the times that I have cut the outside dimensions on my wall cutter, I do get fluff, which I have to smooth with an emory board. These are the ones that get a frame. If I cut a rag that doesnt get a frame, that gets cut on the straight line cutter, which produces smooth edges.
 
nikfrz said:
I have never had a problem getting a crisp bevel with the rags, both Crescent and Bainbridge. I use a .15 double sided blade. Now, the times that I have cut the outside dimensions on my wall cutter, I do get fluff, which I have to smooth with an emory board. These are the ones that get a frame. If I cut a rag that doesnt get a frame, that gets cut on the straight line cutter, which produces smooth edges.
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It's my understanding that people who cut by hand have fewer problems.

With my CMC, its absolute garbage. Bainbridge turns out perfect.

Maybe that would be the solution--to have a duplicate, slightly more expensive line for those who cut on CMC's...but with all the same colors. :shrug:
 
Hi Jeff.

I've thought about this a bit and I think I should apologize for sidetracking this thread.

:soapbox: <<that was me.

Many of us here WOULD buy Crescent (again) if the quality issue was resolved, even at a slightly greater cost. Crescent needs to hear this.

So, back on topic...would you be willing to pay a little more?
 
Joe B said:
Jeff,
I will stick to the opinion that I don't think they care. Maybe they do but they have a strange way of showing it. One example, when they stopped handing out corners because they costed to much they never did tell our suppliers how much they would charge us to purchase a set - yes, I know they have been cutting corners to save money like all of us, they just started cutting those corners sooner. As far as their quality, the rags are the only boards I have problems with. I would estimate that about 70% of my mat sales are Crescent Select and up until I purchased a CMC I also used their rags. I use Crescent not because of their quality or price but because both of my local suppliers carry them and only one of my local suppliers carry Bainbridge. The other 30% of my sales at this time is Bainbridge. If Cresecent's cost increased .50 to 1.00 per board I wouldn't complain, I price my jobs by my cost and my customers wouldn't notice the small difference. I believe if Cresecent increased their cost above a $1.00 they would not be competitve with other mat board companies.
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Thanks Joe, that is the type of response we need here. The .50-$1.00 range is about where others I have discussed this have said they would be comfortable.

The issue with the corner samples was one where they found they were making 2 sets of samples for every licensed framing business in the country per year. The sets cost them $150 and they were letting the suppliers distribute them. The suppliers had no cost on the item so they were being passed out like candy.
 
janetj1968 said:
So, back on topic...would you be willing to pay a little more?
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I would be willing to pay more for Rag to get the old quality back. Crescent has always had a great selection of Rag. I sell a lot of non-conservation framing and just use an upcharge for conservation. It would be no problem for me to add a couple bucks on the retail price for the better product.

If Crescent were to charge a little more and save on the replacement boards they shouldn't have to add much to the cost of the boards.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
The problem has been well discussed with customer service and distributors but the question is do we think it is worth fixing and could we continue using the board at a slightly higher price.
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I'm really shocked that this thread has gone this far and no Crescent rep has spoken! "in the olden days" when I complained about a bad Crescent board not only did they respond here, but I got an e-mail and a phone call.

I know that reps are told not to interact in this forum, I know reps that read the grumble, but don't write because the company tells them not to, but I gotta say if the company is being talked about the rep really should chime in and stand up for the company. I don't want to see reps "selling" the company, but standing up for it and their product should be a prereq to working for a company in today's world. If we were writing these comments about United Peter would be here telling us where we are wrong and taking his lumps where he is wrong. When we have written about ShrinkWrap Winne has answered questions, she's e-mailed grumblers, she didn't sit quiet and watch the fur fly.

Gryphon Moulding has written here and he took more than his share of LM Lumps, and offered valued alternatives to our concerns.

The Paper People need to come in here and talk us down, tell us where we are wrong and who to bring our concerns up with. Tell us to write down the serial numbers that are on the back of the bad boards, tell us to set aside the bad boards so they can call it back and "inspect it". Do something. But just sitting quiet not defending your company is telling us the company isn't worth defending. I think that offends us more than "your presence" in "our forum" ever will. If you expect me to cough up $8, $9 $15 for a board you don't feel is worth defending, then I'll take your lead and understand that the board is not worth buying.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
I would be willing to pay more for Rag to get the old quality back. Crescent has always had a great selection of Rag. I sell a lot of non-conservation framing and just use an upcharge for conservation. It would be no problem for me to add a couple bucks on the retail price for the better product.

If Crescent were to charge a little more and save on the replacement boards they shouldn't have to add much to the cost of the boards.
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My sentiments exactly. Paying up to a dollar more wouldn't worry me half as much as wasting time recutting matts, always asssuming that a spare board is on hand.

There is also the "pride" issue where a job is "just good enough" to go out or has to go out because of a tight deadline and I know that the matt could be a lot better. I hate that:fire:
 
Bob Doyle said:
The Paper People need to come in here and talk us down, tell us where we are wrong and who to bring our concerns up with. Tell us to write down the serial numbers that are on the back of the bad boards, tell us to set aside the bad boards so they can call it back and "inspect it". Do something. But just sitting quiet not defending your company is telling us the company isn't worth defending. I think that offends us more than "your presence" in "our forum" ever will. If you expect me to cough up $8, $9 $15 for a board you don't feel is worth defending, then I'll take your lead and understand that the board is not worth buying.
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Bob, writing down a number with the lot etc. is not going to change the fact that the board is being made to meet price expectations. These boards can be made to any specs but what it comes down to is do you want better board or not. Better board requires more money and this is being read so voice your opinion as to whether the board is fine as is or would you be willing to spend a little extra to get the good stuff back.
 
I had to think a while on how to answer the question.

For $.50 or $1.00 more a board, they should be able to improve it back to the old quality.

I'd be lying if I said I don't miss the colors. But then I started thinking...you know...Bainbridge is the company that supported me through all of this. Bainbridge already costs less than Crescent and they didn't fudge their quality to save a buck. And is it right for me to go running back to Crescent and give them even more money than Bainbridge is charging..and Bainbridge has even better quality? No, its not. I'm going to stick with who has supported me.

Unless I'd hit a roadblock and had to have a particular color, no...I'm not willing to pay any more. I'm not sure if they'd win me back if they improved the quality and kept the price the same. I'm just too burned.
 
Why not buy the company and fix it yourself instead? I'm sure they would listen to the right offer.
 
I doubt most framers would have the change. After all, we're the ones grumbling about losing money.

A nice company like Superior might be able to, though ;)
 
Why has the quality dropped?

Interesting thread :icon21:

I made mat boards for many years and was always happy to post on any forum. It was a great opporutunity to answer any framers questions. If Crescent chooses to read, but not write that is their perogative.

As I have a little knowledge of the mfg process, I can tell you 2 major paper mills closed last year. One made cream, white and black core board - the other made cotton core. These 2 closures caused major headaches for ALL matboard mfgs.

But I do like most of the comments here, which say " YES! we are willing to pay more for better quality"

Unfortunately the mat board market has too many mfgs trying to get a bigger slice of a diminishing cake, and the inevitable happens - it becomes a price war. Prices drop - mfgs seek cheaper raw materials - quality drops - framers complain. Its a vicious down ward spiral.

IMHO all mfgs need to get quality up, prices up, and get back to the days where they made a healthy profit. Then they could afford to give out corners again.

About 20 years ago a top man ( Stace) retired from Crescent and I phoned him to ask " What was the secret of Crescent's success in world markets? " He told me " Its 3 things!" So pen at the ready I wrote down what he told me....................
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

1 Corners
2 Corners
3 Corners
"If you get your corners into a frame shop - you sell more boards."

(Ah - but in those days the quality was top notch! )
 
This is an interesting thread. I'm a Crescent user 95% of the time. The reason...I got tired of ordering Bainbridge boards from the samples I had in my shop just to find out the board had been discontinued. I got new corner samples and still had the problem. No quality issues...just availability. Have I had Crescent problems like those discussed here...you bet. However, I haven't experienced the problems to a great extent. I use a Wizard 8000 and a Fletcher straight line cutter and change the blades often. Would I pay $.50-$1.00 more to get a board from either manufacturer that was quality assured...Yep!
 
Jan, thats my point. Framers need to focus on the business at hand, get customers in the door and make the sale. Complaining about a manufacturer and then taking them to task for not responding to this is plain silly. If you don't like their product, then buy something else. Stop wasting precious time telling them how to fix their business and pay attention to what you're doing to stay in business during this tough time. Focusing on someone else is just a diversion that we have no control over.
 
If your business put out a substandard product AND KNEW IT, how long would you expect to remain in business? They are doing themselves in but not taking care of the problem. IMHO, it's a no brainer.
 
MaryAnn I agree totally with you on this. If they know if's not as good as before, but they but it out anyway then I'll willingly show them the same respect they are showing me. I'll do without and go to Peterboro.

If the problem Crescent is having is that they are using more recycled material in their boards, then they should use that as a selling point. Maybe they'll find framers willing to accept a degree of fraying to "help the environment". I'd be one of them, and I'd forewarn my customer about the jagged edges saying something to the effect that the recycled material is finer and doesn't cut as well, but as it's better overall for the earth, and made with less Dioxin production, I think it's a fair trade off." Hey its better than saying "#### another crappy board, I'm gonna have to order 2 boards for each job and raise my prices. Hope the customer doesn't mind......"

But not hearing them respond in here, Jeff, your request as to how much more would I pay is like a reading a ransom note. "If you want your old boards back ayu betta come up with $1 more each sheet" back posted to 2003.
 
Just a thought: Why should we automatically assume that we have to pay more for higher quality? This position assumes the fact that there is no waste that could be trimmed in the manufacturing and distribution of the product and that Crescent is running lean and mean. Somehow, I'm just not getting that feeling.

That being said ~here's what my Larson price list reads for quantities of 1-24 boards.
Crescent Select $7.20
Crescent Rag $10.76
Bainbridge Alpha $9.94
Bainbridge Rag $15.73

This is a very simplified argument but it looks like I'd be willing to pay up to $5 more for a single sheet of improved product.
 
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