How Low Will You Go?

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GreyDrakkon

GreyDrakkon

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Posts
836
Loc
The frozen tundra of Iowa
Business
The Frame Shop
I'm curious about what other framers input on this would be.

What is your limit on small size frames? Four inches? Six? I know when chopping in a frame from most companies they have a minimum size limit, do you think it's reasonable?

What has set this off is we have one of THOSE customers. You know, the kind that must have a private warehouse of empty frames and glass that she wants us to break down, cut, and join. That part is fine, we have a standard fee and the frames are kinds that our vices can handle. The issue is that she either wants them knocked down by 1/4 of an inch total, or more relevant to this post, she wants it cut down for friggin' wallet photos.

Personally, I really think my fingers are worth more than the piddily amount we'd gain from taking her business on frames like those, plus I usually manage to convince her that it would look better with a mat, which enlarges it and earns a bit more income as well. My limit is six inches, any smaller than that means my fingers are WAY TOO CLOSE TO SPINNING BLADE OF DOOM plus I can't see them! I managed to convince her that I was serious about it, and had no issues for about a year.

Last week the boss takes an order from her, and accepts a 4 x 6 cut and join from her. :faintthud: I made some noise about not being happy doing it, and I'm pretty irritated that I have to train the customer all over again.

So what's the call? Am I the unreasonable one here? Boss of course doesn't seem to think it's a big deal.
 
It's wise to be careful.

With care and no distractions it's feasible to cut quite small frames on cross cut saws.

For example, I've made loads of teeny tiny 'frames' from fillets ... cut on a Prisma CE saw:

IMG_3016MOD.jpg
IMG_3018MOD.jpg


Can't recall the exact size, but this shadowbox was pretty small ... for a couple of rings:

IMG_2715mod-1.jpg


This one's none too big either:
IMG_2916MOD.jpg
 
GreyDrakkon said:
Personally, I really think my fingers are worth more than the piddily amount we'd gain from taking her business on frames like those, plus I usually manage to convince her that it would look better .
Click to expand...

Therein lies your answer.

I refuse anything less than 8x8. It's not worth it and I think OSHA doesn't like it either.

I am sure there are some who will frame much smaller than that, but I am not that desperate.
 
It might be a little foolhardy to do so, but I wouldn't mind chopping frames that size on a chopper. I'd do it in the morning after a cup of coffee, enough to be alert but not so much as to be shakey.

On a saw though? No way. I've grown too attached to my fingers.
 
You need to find your own level of comfort...PaulN is a bit on the conservative side (imagine that?) but small, and I mean really small, frames can be cut with relative safety.
I've cut sections for octagons that were in the 1/2" range...on a chop saw. Never again.
 
FramerDave said:
It might be a little foolhardy to do so, but I wouldn't mind chopping frames that size on a chopper. I'd do it in the morning after a cup of coffee, enough to be alert but not so much as to be shakey.

On a saw though? No way. I've grown too attached to my fingers.
Click to expand...
I agree with that. But I also agree with your statement:
Personally, I really think my fingers are worth more than the piddily amount we'd gain from taking her business on frames like those.

I would lay down the law about these kinds of jobs. She'll come around to your way of thinking when she fails to find anyone else who will agree to do them. BTW, Larson Juhl will not do chops under 6 inches.

:cool: Rick
 
Ah yes I should have mentioned that this is on a miter saw, I do feel more comfortable using the chop blade if I have to go smaller, but it tends to splinter softer woods, so back to the miter saw I go. :P

Wpfay, you're a madman. ;D I think at 1/2 inch I would have bought a dremel with a saw attachment and clamped the moulding to the table!
 
I need to get some photos of that project...there are in excess of 350 pieces in the collection, and all of it required good sphincter muscles.
I skated...would never suggest anyone do the same.
 
My Frame Sqaure saw allows for safe cuts of as small as 2" depending on moulding width. It clamps the mouding so there are no hands involved. Prior to that I would not go below 5" on the Pistorius unless it was a wide enough mouding that my fingers were not too close.

Let the boss know that since it's no big deal the boss can cut the ones below your comfort zone.
 
wpfay said:
there are in excess of 350 pieces in the collection, and all of it required good sphincter muscles. .
Click to expand...
Wow, I`d have held the moulding with my HANDS,ewww....:vomit: L.
 
One thing new framers discover is that the required labor is almost a constant, regardless the size of the picture. Sure, a 30" x40" frame takes a bit more time than an 8 x 10, but not a proportionate amount.

It's one reason why customers may offer more price resistance on smaller framers than larger ones.
 
I have also cut very small frames with the Frame-Square saw, piece of cake. If the clamps can hold it your good.

I don't remember the exact size of the smallest but it was barely big enough to fit in the Mitre Mite VN42, any smaller and I'd have had to remove the horizontal rabbet clamp.
 
CAframer said:
It's wise to be careful.

With care and no distractions it's feasible to cut quite small frames on cross cut saws.

For example, I've made loads of teeny tiny 'frames' from fillets ... cut on a Prisma CE saw:

IMG_3016MOD.jpg
IMG_3018MOD.jpg


Can't recall the exact size, but this shadowbox was pretty small ... for a couple of rings:

IMG_2715mod-1.jpg


This one's none too big either:
IMG_2916MOD.jpg
Click to expand...

Andrew your work is just SICK, that's in a good way ;)
 
I've cut some 3in x 3in frames, but I used a mual mitre box and clamps. smallest done chopper was 4 x 5 in...on power mitre saw I won't go under 6 in.
 
I'll do some weird stuff and with a dozuki (also called a nokogiri) and a custom miter box made for the piece I am making. I have a minimum size of 6 X 6 and then the price starts going up again. Miniature frames are more involved and in my opinion should cost more!
 
I make mirrors that are as small as 1/4" square. Customers love them and I charge about a C note on average. On a Morso it is easy.

5' minimum and sometimes an upcharge. Small frames are harder to do than large frames so just charge accordingly.

Charge accordingly.


Charge accordingly.


Charge accordingly...
 
Looks like everything's been pretty well
covered here. All I have to say is, be sure
that you charge accordingly.
 
bwa haha..... :D

We cut 'em pretty tiny, too. (Although that's usually
out of our moulding, not some rasty half-cracked
crudola that someone's dragged in from their
roach-filled toolshed. For that, we charge our hourly
fee.)
 
Badframer said:
One thing new framers discover is that the required labor is almost a constant, regardless the size of the picture. Sure, a 30" x40" frame takes a bit more time than an 8 x 10, but not a proportionate amount.

It's one reason why customers may offer more price resistance on smaller frames than larger ones.
Click to expand...

Dave said:
...Small frames are harder to do than large frames so just charge accordingly.
Click to expand...

These are good observations. Another factor is that everything on a small frame has to be absolutely perfect (not just 'perfect at arms length' as Jay Goltz recommended in a recent article), because it is like a little jewel that will be closely inspected. Count on spending extra time perfecting. I agree that sometimes the pricing on small framing sounds out of line, but everything has to carry its weight financially. So if you have far less moulding and other materials generating a profit margin, you sure better be charging for your time.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick

P.S. With that in mind, the customer mentioned in the original post may possibly be more profitable for the shop if she finds another [strike]sucker[/strike] framer.
 
She is bringing in her own moulding for you to cut and join, is that correct?

Find a similar moulding that you carry, and figure out what your charge is to cut and join it. This is easy. Take your cost of the moulding if you ordered it, then subtract that from your retail price. The remainder is what you should be charging to cut and join her moulding.

Establishing a flat rate of ten or twenty dollars to cut and join a customers moulding, including breaking down their frame to get the moulding is not going to help your business or your hands.

If you owned a restaurant and charged six dollars for a hamburger, what would you charge me if I brought in all my own ingredants...a dollar.....two dollars?
How long would your restaurant remain open if all your customers did that?

John
 
Hey Dave, do you think I should charge accordingly?

;)

Everyone has some great points, and yes, it has bothered me about charging a flat rate for something that winds up being more complicated (and dangerous). Fortunately for me, she's pretty much the only customer who does this.
 
There is some merit to selling what your customers want to buy. We call it "doing business".

If you have the tools and skills, and you don't mind using them, then you decide whether you want to do the work required. Personally, I would offer to do it. If you want the work, give the customer pricing and terms (not necessarily a fixed price) that assure you a fair profit.

On the other hand, if you do not want to risk the personal injury that could result from an accident, then I suggest you respectfully decline, tell her why, and invite her to come back again in the future with work you want to do.
 
I just did a 3x5 moulding for a very good customer. I do charge extra, for the reasons already mentioned here.
I cut it on my saw. I still have all my fingers.

She originally wanted a metal frame; I don't cut metal and know the min. is 6" (LJ) so told her I couldn't do it.

It ended up being a nice profitable order.
 
Ylva, I've definitely put my foot down on cutting small metal frames, especially if they're a tall profile. The metal got snagged on the saw, spun around, and cracked one of my fingernails right down the middle, took months for it to grow out. I think that's the first time the boss actually saw me really mad, so it stuck in his mind.

I wound up griping enough that it should stick in his mind that I'm not doing any more 4" frames. Of course, that same lady picked up her order, and left another one for a 5" frame. >_< Yie.
 
Ouch!!!!
I don't sell a lot of metal frames (have a few customers for it) and always order chop. No need for me to cut it myself.

I don't mind cutting wood to about 3". I haven't had the request for anything smaller than that so far. Not sure what I would do in that case. Probably depends on the customer....and I would charge a lot!!!!
 
I have a wholesale customer that uses frames that are 4 1/2 X 5 1/2.

I've cut thousands of frames this size for them on my Pistorius MN200.

I cut on the saw with the same amount of concentration no matter the size of the rail.
 
We are, after all, custom framers.
 
I have a customer who designs miniature rooms. We have made lots of small frames mostly using fillets but sometimes small mouldings.

I have cut some really short legs holding down the moulding with a push stick or nothing at all. Yeah, the miter cuts are lousy but I just straighten them out with my Barton miter sander.

Doug
 
Do I see a new super hero comic book series on the horizon? Wait, it's getting clearer.... Super Framer! Able to cut a one inch square frame with only three fingers!:popc:
 
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