How I shocked Buddy!

Rebecca

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Feb 28, 2002
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Vancouver, B.C., Canada
I suprised Buddy when I said that wheat starch paste hinges, mends and backings are not always reversible. In case I suprised anyone else, he said I could post my reply to him.

I would be interested in other people's thoughts on the subject too.

In theory, wheat starch paste/Japanese paper hinges, mends and backings are always reversible. In practice, there are cases when they are not reversible. Very fragile, or soft, short fibered papers, very delicate papers, degraded papers etc. may not be able to withstand the stresses involved in removal. The paste has to be humidified or moistened to soften it sufficiently for removal of the paper. This can, in some cases, weaken the paper enough that hinge/mend or backing removal will result in fiber loss, delamination, skinning etc. Enzymes can be used to digest the paste, but that can cause its own set of problems.

Sometimes it's best just to leave the Japanese paper/paste on, knowing that it will have good aging properites.

Sometimes I will back a very fragile paper with Japanese tissue and wheat starch paste, knowing that it will probably be impossible to remove that backing in the future. In cases like this it is doubly important to use use the best quality materials, that impose themselves as little as possible on the original. So I would use a very thin tissue, and a thin paste. That way the paper is strengthened, but still remains flexible - as much like the original sheet of paper as possible.

Another point in the concept of reversibility is the "Ideal" vs the "Real". Even in the best situation some of the paste is bound to be absorbed by the paper. But this rarely makes a difference is the appearance or aging of the piece. Of course some papers are totally water reactive, and shouldn't be paste hinged, mended etc.

Conservators always strive for the ideal of reversibility, but often it's an impossible ideal. That doesn't mean we throw the idea out, just that we realize there are practical limitations.

Japanese paper and wheat starch hinges are still, in almost every case, the best thing to use. I've mentioned using pressure sensitive tissue made from Lascaux HV 360 acrylic emulsion and Japanese paper as a substitute when a piece is very water sensitive, but if anyone wants, I can post it again.

It's good to question accepted practices, and be open to new ideas. Conservators change their minds all the time according current ethical/philosophical interpretations of "reversibility", the balance between stability and aesthetics (to clean or not to clean), and new information about materials and techniques that conservators and conservation scientists come up with. And there is plenty of disagreement within the field. Look at all the fighting going on over cleaning Michelangelo's David! http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,998966,00.html



Rebecca
 
I guess there are two ways we can respond to news like that, Rebecca.

We can throw up our hands and cry, "What's there to believe in anymore?" or we can keep reading and learning and asking questions.

I lost interest in physics when I asked a question, in an auditorium full of first year college physics students, about why a certain physical phenomenon could not occur in the real world. (I'm not going to tell you the question, but it was something from a Superman comic.)

Instead of answering me, or even asking me to see him after class, the professor rolled his eyes, shook his head and continued on with the "discussion."

I don't think he knew the answer.

In 26 years, I've never had occasion to reverse a Japanese hinge. I just figured they were reversible.

Have I told you lately what a treasure you are, Rebecca?
 
Oh MY GAWD!!!! Ron double posted!!!!
 
Originally posted by jvandy57:
Oh MY GAWD!!!! Ron double posted!!!!
Ah, yes, but he's quick and he's a moderator, and the world will never know it...

Betty
 
Now ain't that a case of over moderation, I'm appalled, shocked, astounded! Now everybody will think I'M nuts!
 
Originally posted by jvandy57:
Oh MY GAWD!!!! Ron double posted!!!!
Jerry, that was MY reaction, too!

I'm never sure exactly at what point a post has been posted. So when I clicked on the "add reply" button and was promptly bumped off-line by my bargain ISP, I re-posted just to be sure.

When I saw I had double-posted, I was DISMAYED! I realized that you, and many others, would be disillusioned, throw up your hands and cry, "What is there to believe in any more???"

So I fixed it, though not quickly enough.
 
I did know that the method wasn't reversable. That is why I have taken to using corner pockets and mounting strips whenever possible. You still say using the paste and paper hinges is the best method. I am curious as to why.
 
I like the corners and the strips too, Pamela, but I'll take a guess at why Rebecca and others say the Japanese hinges are better.

If the corners or strips are applied too loosely, the art may shift position behind the mat. If they are too snug, there could be buckling with humidity changes.

The corners, and maybe the strips, could stress some types of paper.

The pressure-sensitive adhesive used in most corners or strips may not be permanent. Or, in the event of a trauma, could be too strong to release and prevent damage to the art.

One of those guesses, at least, should be close. ;)
 
Less was hoping to hear a story about an electrical appliance.

Mounting would be second choice.
 
Gosh you guys are funny! Don't you love how quick on the draw JeRy was - like he's been waiting forever for this chance.

Pamela I was thinking "best" in terms of the best of the hinging materials.

As far as I know corners and side strips are fine too - they can sometimes give problems, just like everything else.

As far as hinges vs corners and side strips, this isn't really my area of experience, so I'd be interested in hearing what everyone else has to say, including Hugh and Jim.

Rebecca
 
one problem with strips is if you are not over mattint the image. if you were floating the work it would not work. if you are overmatting then it is fine. i think the correct term for the strips is sling matting...or this could be the person who taught me.
enn
 
Originally posted by Rebecca:
I suprised Buddy when I said that wheat starch paste hinges, mends and backings are not always reversible...
You caught me off guard too, Rebecca. But then I realized you were referring to the mount in general, and not just the adhesive -- and adhesive was the topic at hand.

Thanks for your advice about the hazards of trying to un-do hinges; it makes sense. But, as I understand your comments, the potential problems are more related to the papers than to the pure starch paste -- right?

And about hinges vs, corner strips --

The best reason to hinge is that the paper hangs like a curtain behind the mat. Corner mounts & edge strips force the paper to stand on its bottom edge, which could cause cockling as the top edge wants to fall.
 
Starch paste and the cellulose in paper are chemically VERY similar and thus, are not likely to react. This means that when an adhesive is needed, paste is best. When it is used with Japanese tissue to support very delicate paper,
as Rebecca said, removing it may pose too great
a risk. Very thin papers or those whose edges have
to be exposed will need hinges. Heavier papers
whose edges can be over matted are best supported
with folded paper edge strips, which are attached
to the back mat at a distance from the corners.
If the mat is kept securely closed, the friction
of paper against paper should do most of the holding of the sheet. This strategy avoids having supports that are confining or which concentrate the support at the corners of the sheet.
Nothing in this world is perfect and we must use
the best materials and techniques available.
As Rebecca pointed out, reversibility is an ideal
to which we must aspire, but it is not always
completely achievable.

Hugh
 
Thanks Rebecca.However I wasn't so much shocked at your explanation as what I felt was a common error most framers like myself might make. That is when a rule is stated with some degree of authority we tend to assume that it is TOTALY and ALWAYS correct. By this I mean whenever I heard the phrase Reversable used it always seemed to be preceeded by TOTALY which obviously isn't always correct.
I am also used to hearing the BUZZ phrase "Do No Harm" when speaking about C/P frameing .However it might be more correct to say do as little harm as we can ,since try as we may with the best practices and materials available some things still may be unavoidable.
The reason for mentioning this is I think it would be much better to honestly inform the public of our efforts but not to Over state the abilities to defie the laws of nature and physics.
Since when this one in a million thing happens it makes us look like we are exagerateing all our claims ,when we aren't doing that at all.
And i do ralize that Conservators (The real Experts) are no different than the rest of us and are learning new things every day. As a matter of fact that is what makes them EXPERTS they keep learning and looking for better ways to do things just as we should. Maybe that is why people like Rebecca and Hugh don't speak in superaltives and absolutes but deal with every frame on a case by case basis.
I hope i don't sound to negative .
BUDDY
 
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