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Verdaccio

Verdaccio

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Posts
757
Loc
Berthoud, Colorado
Okay, the new guy is unhappy with his corners.

Brand new chopper...brand new underpinner...corners not 90 degrees.

If I take a fresh cut corner out of the chopper and put it into a framing square and push the cuts together as they were cut, it is about 1/16th off square out at about 8 inches. This is for most moulding I have cut thus far. Some join just fine, others are just slightly off...there is the usual twisting in the length, the fact that the sides are not always 90 degrees, am I always holding it flush, and so forth...variables that make me wonder if it is the equipment or operator error.

I have put a 45 triangle up to both chopper and pinner and there is a tiny tiny bit of play in the underpinner.

So overall, I am not happy.

I chopped a profile this morning and again was unhappy - just slightly off and that means the final corner join would have a slight gap. So instead, I glued and viced the corners. As I took them out of the vice, I underpinned them. It worked perfectly - all four corners had razor seams.

Got me wondering if other people were doing this too? I am really hesitant to start messing with the alignments on my chopper or underpinner in fear of making this worse.

But...the reason I got the underpinner was to no have to use the vices...

How do you join your corners? Any suggestions for my issue?
 
Verdaccio said:
Okay, the new guy is unhappy with his corners.

Brand new chopper...brand new underpinner...corners not 90 degrees.

If I take a fresh cut corner out of the chopper and put it into a framing square and push the cuts together as they were cut, it is about 1/16th off square out at about 8 inches. This is for most moulding I have cut thus far. Some join just fine, others are just slightly off...there is the usual twisting in the length, the fact that the sides are not always 90 degrees, am I always holding it flush, and so forth...variables that make me wonder if it is the equipment or operator error.

I have put a 45 triangle up to both chopper and pinner and there is a tiny tiny bit of play in the underpinner.

So overall, I am not happy.

I chopped a profile this morning and again was unhappy - just slightly off and that means the final corner join would have a slight gap. So instead, I glued and viced the corners. As I took them out of the vice, I underpinned them. It worked perfectly - all four corners had razor seams.

Got me wondering if other people were doing this too? I am really hesitant to start messing with the alignments on my chopper or underpinner in fear of making this worse.

But...the reason I got the underpinner was to no have to use the vices...

How do you join your corners? Any suggestions for my issue?
Click to expand...

We rarely go straight from the chopper to the underpinner. In my opinion, setting with glue in a vice should be your standard practice. We have 4 vices. (Viceies, vicii, vicus) Keeps the work flowing. The reason we have the underpinner is because it's a better and faster way to nail.
 
My procedure is taken from various advice from Grumblers.
Chop then disc sand then glue in vice then underpin.

Step #1) I chop a touch bigger than the normal 1/8".
Step #2) Give each end a couple cranks on the manual disk sander.
Step #3) Align and glue in vice. Let set several minutes. (I have two sets of vi.)
Step #4) V-nail with manual v-nailer.
 
I always vise/glue first. With Corner Weld, it sets up almost immediately (couple minutes). My older VN1 wants to shove the miter apart if I attempt to join "wet". Takes a little extra time, but....no choice until I can get a better underpinner. I have 8 vises and sometimes have them all going at once....like Johnny said....work flow.
 
I just know you all are sitting there shaking your heads and saying..."How could he not know that!?"

OJT

Thanks for the responses. From now on, it is glue, vice, pin. :)
 
Verdaccio said:
Thanks for the responses. From now on, it is glue, vice, pin. :)
Click to expand...

Well I don't own a vice - this is a three and a half inch moulding around a 5"x5" mirror - that's a test of how well your chopper and underpinner are calibrated - small frame with wide profile.

But don't use a good moulding to calibrate - use a wide flat pine batten - and you'll find lots of info on which way to move the morso fence etc here too.

BTW - I know I didn't paint the wabbit black and I've no idea what that black mark is - but it's reflected ('reflected':smiley: - get it!) in the price - just offcuts.

DSCN1945.jpg
 
Michael, I had never used an underpinner before I bought this shop. Always pre-drilled, taptaptap in the brads, set, fill holes. I thought the same as you did, "Then what the heck is an underpinner good for if you have to still use the vise??" What Johnny said, it's simply a better and faster way to join with no holes to fill.

For those that have underpinners that hold the miter tight with wet glue and don't have to vise at all.....I envy you! Not the case here.

John, what kind of underpinner do you have?
 
Paul.....never!!

So....what kind of underpinner do you have??
 
In my limited experience with underpinners, most joining troubles are related to the position of the vertical clamp. If the clamp does not come down directly above the insertion point, the action of driving the fastener will cause the moulding pieces to bump up in the front or the back, making a loose joint.

If the angles are wrong, that is a cutting issue, not a joining issue. In that case the finished frame's corners would have gaps on the inside or outside of each corner. The underpinner should be adjusted perfectly, so the fourth corner of a perfectly-cut frame goes together as neatly as 1, 2, and 3.
 
I had no idea that so many people glued in a vice before underpinning! I don't usually do that, I just go from the chopper, to the sander, to the underpinner. I occasionally have to use a vice on the fourth corner if the moulding has a slight twist, but that is rare. Interesting...
 
Ok I'll rock the boat a little here. I chop then join in the underpinner. No vice gluing or sanding of the angles. Just chop and join. I have about 99 percent perfect corners. As long as your chopper is properly squared ,and I must say that that sounds more like your problem than anything else, then your corners should join perfectly. Also, doesn't your underpinner have adjustable fences to fudge the corners into joining properly when there isn't a perfect cut? Mine does.
 
Like Paul, straight to underpinner ... no clamping ... we use a Cassese 299M and LOVE it!
 
RoboFramer said:
(Cue Osgood - to sing the praises of the cassese 3099!)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the cue John!
I don't own a vice or a sander. Joints are made straight off the chopper or double mitre saw.
Occasionally use a strap clamp after joining on some really soft wood. The majority of joints are very tight with no gaps straight from the vee nailer.

I just couldn't cope with having to vice join everything first. It doesn't make sense to me!

I find that my chopper needs to be adjusted slightly depending on the hardness and the profile of some mouldings. The way the blades go through different profiles and hardnesses can result in the 45 degree angle being slightly different so I adjust the left fence a little sometimes.
 
Tossed my vises out 15 years ago when I got my VN4...and always nail wet.

I used to be in the cabinet/woodworking business. A little tidbit I picked up early in my career...a good wood joint is dependant on the two surfaces of wood touching. Too much glue and they won't touch. A good wood glue breaks down the microfibers in the surface and causes them to mesh, kinda like folding your fingers together. That's why you can get a better glue joint in two pieces of wood if you glue them side to side or with the grain parallel as opposed to two boards attached end to end (or a butt joint). Glue them side to side and you'll rip the fibers off the board trying to separate them.

A 45deg joint, (as in most picture frames) is a combination of a side to side and an end to end joint.

And always nail it wet. Most glues dry to 75% stength in a short period of time but only gain their full strength after 24 hours. So if you start hammering or beating on the joint, you start to break down joint, even if you can't see it happen, your weakening the connection.

Glue is not the deciding factor in the strength of the joint. Put too much glue on and you can break the glue joint very easily...because your breaking the glue, not the wood.

With that said, a good V nailer should be pulling the joint together. But we all know that doesn't always happen, usually due to a weird profile or such. When that happens, I break out the strap clamps and draw the corners together with a little encouragement.

Plus... the LJ truck pulls up with 15-20 chops, hard to justify the time to clamp every corner. It would be like buying a new framing software system and then using the manual chart to figure the pricing.

Wow, is that as clear as mud...hope so.
 
CAframer said:
Like Paul, straight to underpinner ... no clamping ... we use a Cassese 299M and LOVE it!
Click to expand...

We have the same underpinner and a 30 year old chopper. We sharpen blades regularly and buy new ones once a year or so. We chop, glue, put in vises to dry, join. We occasionally wet join when we are in a hurry and the moulding profile is simple. Even DIY customers have to wait for the glue to dry. We have vises everywhere! BTW, we usually only have the corners in the vises for about 5 minutes, not enough time to dry thoroughly.

I would be interested to hear comments on hangupsgallery's comments below.
 
I'll be looking at underpinners in January at WCAF, and doing homework from here until then.
 
To check the accuracy of your chopper - back off the blades and use a straight edge along the fence. If it is straight all the way across both fences it should cut just fine.

I feel that is very important to cut all four lenghts using a stop. You just cant hold tight enough to overcome movement. Make sure the last cut is a trim cut - don't remove a lot of material.

As RoboFramer suggested - cut 4 pieces of 1x4 with the stops set at 5 inches or so. It should all join perfectly.

I think that you can adjust your underpinner to get gdod corners without gluing, drying, and then joining. Get instructions from the manufacturer.
 
Kirstie said:
I would be interested to hear comments on hangupsgallery's comments below.
Click to expand...
I agree with his comments!
I also spent many years in the wood working industry, manufacturing custom made period style furniture. Tighter joints produce stronger joints!
 
What good reason is there for gluing then sticking it in a vise before v-nailing? Either your cuts are true and they go together well or they don't.

What I suspect is that the cut sucks and to make the frame look decent requires some creative alignment in the vise.

I'll admit that a few times I have pried up one leg to close the miter or have used a vise to mash a joint together. It’s embarrassing but hey it’s honest.

What I learned is that if you cut the frame correctly then you will not have to sand it or clamp it. I'm not sure about a lot of things but this I'm 1000% sure.

If you're going to clamp the frame then why not just shoot some brads in and move on. You can also donate your joiner to somebody who will make a good use of it. Or sell it because you'll need the money to pay for some more labor that you're wasting messing with vises.

It also risks compromising the joint to nail when the glue is already set up or worse partially set. It's probably better not nail at all.
 
I completely agree with hangupsgallery's assessment. Wet nailing will always produce a stonger joint. There is a wide disparity in v-nailers. Some have features that make it possible to compensate for poor quality mitres with good results, others can't join a flawless mitre without a gap or overlap. For my money, Cassese makes the best machines. The VN machines are workhorses - some models are better than others, but they're all built to last. My preferred procedure: chop the frame, couple 'o cranks with the mitre sander, then straight to the v-nailer with a thin, even coat on both mitred surfaces, allow the frame to dry for at least a couple of hour before fitting.
 
Val said:
I'll be looking at underpinners in January at WCAF, and doing homework from here until then.
Click to expand...

We really like the Cassese. This is our second one.
 
Okay, Romaboy, next time you're in you can take a look at my VN1 and tell me why I can get a great cut on the chopper, no tweaking in a vise (slides tight and right), but if I glue and take it straight to the v-nailer, it scoots it apart and gappy. There's a lot of play in what "fence" there is, and no adjustment capabilities.

I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't a part missing, or if it's just so darned old, it's worn away some of the inner fence.
 
Val, I first used my VN-M when I was probably 8 years old. Its the only under pinner I have ever used and Romaboy must be overstating to prove a point? There is nothing wrong with those machines. There may be better ones out there but those aren't junk.

This will be hard to explain and I'm not familiar with the VN1 but maybe this info is good for both machines. Look at the top plate that the frame rests on. Now look at the metal poking up through that plate where the nail comes up. Are those perfectly flush? Sometimes the part that guides the nail can come up from the bottom and be slightly taller than the plate where the frame rests. That will make your frames open up when you shoot a nail in it. Also too much glue will ruin a miter every time. Also the VN I use has a big round felt pad that holds the frame from the top. That only works on flat topped profiles. All bets are off on a scoop. You need some different (smaller) pads to hold anything with a big scoop.

Carry on.
 
I have a lot of vices but not the type used for joining frames.

I cut with a Morso guillotine which is possibly as old as I am or a nearly new Breveti prisma saw then it is onto the V-nailer. I used a manual Molgra for years then bought a pneumatic Brevetti with multiple adjustments on the fence and overhead clamps which enable me to tackle just about any shape.

My biggest bugbear, and I suspect it may be part of the problem under discussion here, is the stupid recent practice of some manufacturers of running their mouldings on hardwood and armouring them with rock-hard compo. :nuts: This sort of stuff cannot be cut on a guillotine and if you try you will only ruin your blades and produce gappy mitres. You can cut them with a saw but the underpinner will struggle and the violence needed to drive the wedge in may open the top of the mitre.

Sometimes, if a stick is a bit less than perfectly straight and a corner gapes I will use a sash-clamp to hold it closed while the glue "bites" but otherwise the V-nailed frame is usually good enough.
 
Verdaccio said:
If I take a fresh cut corner out of the chopper and put it into a framing square and push the cuts together as they were cut, it is about 1/16th off square out at about 8 inches.
Click to expand...

As Adam of Mythbusters would say, "Well there's your problem!".

I think I may have elaborated on it before, but here is my procedure for ensuring a properly set up chopper for 45° corners.

You want a relatively wide piece of straight, flat and true lumber (you can't use moulding for this procedure, it needs to have flat parallel faces). Something like a piece of 1 x 4 or thereabouts is great. Also, you need a verified good square.

Take a piece of the lumber that is a little longer than twice the width of it and cut both ends using the right side of the chopper (you have to flip it over to cut the second end, which is why you can't use moulding).

Hold the cut ends against the inside of the square to check it. Adjust that fence as required until true.

Now you can adjust the rail that the stop slides on to line up with the end of the fence. *

Then go to the left side and do the same thing. Make a "frame" using the same wide pieces and hold together with a band or web clamp to verify. Make adjustments as necessary until you are happy.

In my opinion there are two problems with just using a straight edge to line up the two fences. First is that while a 44° and 46° will produce a 90°, the length of the miter will be different - on a one ince wide moulding a 1° difference will make .050", or almost 1/16". This translates to an overhang at the lip. Here's 1°:
44-46_degrees.gif


More importantly, even if you end up with two 45°, although it works theoretically, I have never been satisfied with the actual results.

* Because of the nature of the rail being independent of the length markings, moving the rail forward or back will change the calibration.
 
Many thanks for the replies here. I am going to get a brass triangle 45/90 from Hartville tool that has been recommended to me. Then, I will get some 1x4 and give the method David gave a shot. :)
 
Verdaccio said:
I am going to get a brass triangle 45/90 from Hartville tool
Click to expand...

Hartville does have a good reputation, but two cautions.

If this is a "combination square" that has the sliding straight edge there is just no way it can be as accurate over its lifetime as a dedicated square.

You want something long enough to measure the CUT ends to measure 90°, not ONE cut end against the edge which is only 45°, because you are effectively doubling any problem which makes it easier to see.

Good luck!
 
Dave, Great simple tutorial on adjusting for square.
 
Jay H said:
What good reason is there for gluing then sticking it in a vise before v-nailing? Either your cuts are true and they go together well or they don't.
Click to expand...

I have a Cassese C-79, manual v-nailer. It has no clamps to hold the moulding while the nail is being pushed into the wood. Only two small fences on the sides and a presser that comes down over where the nail is. Until I got some great advice from ScottK, I was only using the v-nailer on very simple, mostly flat moulding. I viced and brad nailed the rest.

The problem was as the presser came down on anything but flat moulding it wanted to push the rails apart or roll them forward or back.

As I remember, with the pneaumatic v-nailers, you press slightly to first clamp the moulding then press harder to nail. It's during the clamping you can see how the joint lines up. With the manual, once you push on the pedal, the presser comes down and covers the joint, you can't see if the joint moves until it's to late.

That's my reason for gluing in a vice first. Also with Scott's advice and some trial and error using the rubber presser pads, I manage to get pretty good corners.
 
Dancinbaer said:
It's during the clamping you can see how the joint lines up. With the manual, once you push on the pedal, the presser comes down and covers the joint, you can't see if the joint moves until it's to late.


Another good reason for not using the large round pads that come with most machines, they cover too much of the joint. We use, 95% of the time, an L shaped foot/pad which enables you to monitor the joint as the corner is "clamped". Sometimes you have to just tweek the fences (several times) to get them perfectly aligned with the shape of the moulding. Occationally the moulding will have slightly different depths. (two different runs on the moulding) causing the faces not to match. We then might use a very small shim to raise one side or the other so that they are flush on top.

We have even fashioned some custom made pads and jigs for those special mouldings with weird shapes, both top and sides.

Bottom line...you need a good clamp to hold the corner solid so the v nail can be pushed in from below without moving your mitre.
Click to expand...
 
Jay H said:
Also the VN I use has a big round felt pad that holds the frame from the top. That only works on flat topped profiles. All bets are off on a scoop. You need some different (smaller) pads to hold anything with a big scoop.

Carry on.
Click to expand...

I think I have shared this before, but one of the best methods I have found to remedy this problem is using those bean bag weights from LJ. Or you can make your own. They 'mold' into the shape of the profile whereas the large, small and even the L pads won't. I haven't used anything but the bean bags in two years.
 
Yep, and so far I have never had a problem.


But like was mentioned above, you have to position the clamp over the moulding so that the pressure point is aligned with entry point of the nail. (Kinda one of those 'duh' things.)
 
Like Artfolio, I have a few vices, but only one vise, a M*********p, which I only use when I have a frame that my VN-4 doesn't like. Properly adjusted using a plexiglas square with a line for nail head alignment, it's really hard to get a bad join with the VN-4 if you know how to use the machine.
I make side money by doing consultations: I go into a shop, make recommendations on how to fix the setup, check over the machines and adjust them, etc. A lot of the time, when I'm told that the joiner isn't working right, I check the fences and other moving parts, do a trial join and then ask the joining person to do one. More often than not, the problem is that the machine is not being used properly. When you buy a new joiner, ask for a hands-on tutorial.
 
Val said:
tell me why I can get a great cut on the chopper, no tweaking in a vise (slides tight and right), but if I glue and take it straight to the v-nailer, it scoots it apart and gappy. There's a lot of play in what "fence" there is, and no adjustment capabilities.

I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't a part missing, or if it's just so darned old, it's worn away some of the inner fence.
Click to expand...
Val,
Vee nailers/underpinners are just like any other product that we buy. Some are very simple (and inexpensive) with few features and some a few more features and the best have many features (more expensive).

The first vee nailer I ever had (22 years ago) was very simple and joined poorly no matter how good the cuts were on the moulding. I then had two other machines that were adequate, but produced gappy joints 90% of the time. The 3099 Ultra that I have now cost more than all the other three combined, but it makes perfect joints 99.9% of the time.

It's just like we tell our customers - "you get what you pay for"!
 
Unfortunately, it came with the shop. It's up next as equipment to replace....possibly at WCAF in January.
 
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