Hot or Cold?

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Dancinbaer

Dancinbaer

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Posts
1,267
Loc
De Pere, WI
I'm looking for guidance here. I'm a home based freshman framer. Very limited space and budget. I've been outsourcing dry mounting, but keeping my eyes open for my own equipment. My question is should I get a heated dry mount press or a cold vacuum press.

From what I've gathered reading on the Grumble, heat mounting is better, but cold mounting is safer for items like digital photos. Dry mount presses are smaller and require multiple presses. Vacuum press are larger and will press large items with one application.

As always, any advice will be greatly appreciated.
 
Denny, as you know, I'm a big fan of the combination presses, like the Vacuseal. You can mount with heat and vacuum, which I do with most items, or just the vacuum, for those delicate unmentionables (color laser prints, blueprints, etc.) They are big, heavy and expensive, but otherwise ideal.

There are apparently framers who rarely dry mount anything, but I can't imagine running my shop without a Vacuseal or equivalent.
 
I was raised on the Seal Masterpiece mechanical press. I have used the Seal Combo 4468 for the last half of my "career". My shop came with the mechanical press. My observations: The mechanical press does a stellar job and even though it is smaller you actually can do some things you can't fit into the vacuum press. The vacuum press does a stellar job plus it has the ability to mount without heat. If you are limited on space it can double as a work surface also. I've used the mechanical press the past year and I have adjusted to not having the vacuum press but if I had my choice I would go with the vacuum combo.
 
Definitely get some form of a press that uses heat, either a vacuum/heat combo or a mechanical press. I've been very grateful for my dry mount press the last few weeks with the weather turning colder and our old boiler dieing. You can actually heat the room up nicely while mounting pictures! :D Just glad we got the new boiler in before this week's artic blast. They're talking snow for tommorrow. :(
 
I have a dry mount press and a 40" roller laminator that I use for some cold mounting. I will be getting a combo vacuum press. Starting out, the combo would be my preference.
 
Let me rephrase my question. Given the option of spending $300 or less for a COLD vacuum press, $350 or more for a heated dry mount press, or keep outsourcing until you could afford a heated vacuum press. Which would you chose?

Thanks for the previous replies,
 
Ah, Denny, that's a different question altogether.

I would continue to outsource it if: </font>
  1. You're getting consistantly good mounting jobs from your source </font>
  2. You're getting a price that allows you to make a profit on the mounting </font>
  3. You're getting it done in a timely fashion (re. it's not holding up the rest of the show) </font>
  4. You don't have to drive 50 miles to get it done. </font>
 
Ah, Denny, that's a different question altogether.

I would continue to outsource it if:
1) You're getting consistantly good mounting jobs from your source
2) You're getting a price that allows you to make a profit on the mounting
3) You're getting it done in a timely fashion (re. it's not holding up the rest of the show)
4) You don't have to drive 50 miles to get it done.
Click to expand...
1) Yes I am
2) Yes I am (sometimes just the cost of materials)
3) Mmmmmm kinda. I pretty much go with his schedule but he's done rush jobs for me.*
4) I do have to drive about 30 miles.*

*A friend we'll call Mark, does mounting for me. Mark used to have a store front business that included framing. When he closed the business and moved to Pulaski he kept his framing equipment and now works part-time out of his home. I live in De Pere which is about 30 miles from Pulaski where I'm employed full-time. So, as for scheduling and driving; I bring the piece(s) to work with me, at lunch go to where Mark works, give him the piece(s), he lets me know when he'll have time to do them (usually within a week), then I pick them up. If I had my own press I could do them at my convenience.

Thanks Ron, ......see ya saturday(?)
 
Why not buy your friends press from him? If it was a choice between a mechanical press and a cold mount vacuum press, I'd go with the mechanical press. You can always use some kind of positionable adhesive for those things that can't take the heat. Also, keep your eyes and ears open for bargains as other shops upgrade. I bought my press for $100 plus a weekend trip to Northern Illinois to pick it up.
 
Thanks Anne, I'll keep looking. My friend is still in the framing business part-time so he still uses all his equipment.
 
Originally posted by Dancinbaer:
...From what I've gathered reading on the Grumble, heat mounting is better, but cold mounting is safer for items like digital photos...
Click to expand...
Let's talk more about what's "better".

Dry mounting is better for anything that is not porous, such as photos, and moisture sensitive things, such as inkjet or giclee prints.

For posters and other hygroscopic (porous) items that are not particularly moisture sensitive, wet mounting under vacuum is better.

When either method is suitable, we choose vacuum wet mounting. The process is faster and less complicated than dry mounting, the materials are much less costly, and the results are more permanent. Heat-activated adhesives weaken over time, especially if mounting conditions (time, temperature, moisture and pressure) are less than perfect.

And let's throw in the usual caution that neither of those methods are suitable for items of significant monetary or sentimental value. The first rule of preservation framing is to avoid permanent changes to the condition of the item framed. Reversing either a dry mount or a wet mount requires invasive methods. They both make permanent changes to the item -- regardless of what you might hear about removing them.

I'm with the others -- if possible, wait until you can buy that combination hot/cold vacuum press.
 
That's interesting, Jim. Would you say that the new 3M system we saw in Atlanta may become the new best way to vacuum cold-mount? It looked good to me and seemed to address the various problems I've had with both wet-mounting and toxic sprays.
 
I'd continue to outsource until the the buy budget gets a little bigger. Be ready to jump on a good deal. I used a old Seal with the frog eyes for a long time for mounting up to about 24" wide. Picked it up at a camera swap for $50. Eventually found a pristine 500tx for about a grand, with supplies. Watch the photo and darkroom section of EBAY. I see them there all the time.
 
As we are venturing into the heat press side of things, I had been looking at the Tullis Russel hot vacuum press and also one from Beinfang(Seal) but this Vacuseal sounds like another popular option.
Can someone give me some contact details for the manufacturer of these units?
:D
 
I've got one of the new 3M systems on order from UMF, but have not gotten it as yet. They tell me it will be a couple of weeks yet before they get them. I have this thing about dry mounting anything except photos. Yes, I know that it is not the evil thing that my little third brain cell says it is, but over my 20 years in this business, I've had just too many people bring me things that are dry mounted that they wanted un dry mounted. As a result, I'm somewhat opposed to anything even related to dry mounting, and won't, if I can help it. They tease me about that at my part-time. The Boss says she can always tell if I took the order, w/o even looking at the name, if it has no dry mount and conservation glass. That said. I do dry mount photos, cheap posters, very thin prints that have no prayer of staying flat on their own, stuff like that. I use the press at work to flatten out rolled up prints and posters, and folded up ones, and to help get creases out of things. I don't own a press, as I have had to keep our shipping weight down to a bare minimum, and, now, I can use the one at work, if I need it. I was really impressed with the 3M system. I had been using their Vac-U-Seal and a brayer for things that needed that type of mounting. I'm looking forward to getting the new spray system into my hands and shop, and giving it a real try out on my own.
I'll keep you all posted, when I get the thing.
:cool:
Susan
 
Kiwi, VacuSeal is the brand name for the combination vacuum/heat press made by Hunt/Seal/Bienfang. It is a real workhorse, but the Tullis Hot Press is also supposed to be very good and is, I believe, available with a glass top so you can see what horrible things are happening inside before the press reaches full pressure.
 
Originally posted by Ron_Eggers:
That's interesting, Jim. Would you say that the new 3M system we saw in Atlanta may become the new best way to vacuum cold-mount? It looked good to me and seemed to address the various problems I've had with both wet-mounting and toxic sprays.
Click to expand...
Hi, Ron:

Nobody yet knows all the ups and downs of Pro-Spray. But when we receive the ones we have on order, all of us should be able to judge for ourselves how useful this new system will be.

Aerosol spray mounting is rare in my shop already. It is the least-permanent, most invasive, most toxic, and most expensive method I've seen. In almost every case there's an alternative that is less costly, less toxic, less invasive, and more permanent.

Cold adhesive-sheet mounting isn't toxic, but shares most of the other characteristics of spray mounting. However, it's been quite a while since I've checked out the products for that method, and some of the newer ones may be much improved over what I remember. One of these days I'll get around to trying that method again.

I'm inclined to think Pro-Spray would replace dry mounting more than wet mounting in my shop. Dry mounting is a precise process, the results of which are totally dependent on time, temperature, pressure & moisture. The worst part is that if something about a dry mount is imperfect, it might not show up for a couple of years. Framers are making defective drymounts every day and not realizing it.

Pro-Spray, from what we saw in Atlanta, should be faster, easier, and more dependable than dry mounting, for non-porous items & substrates not suitable for wet mounting.

Wet mounting under vacuum is so easy, dependable, and inexpensive that I can't imagine any better alternative for porous materials. Admittedly, it wouldn't be so great without a vacuum press. But then, neither would any other mounting choice we've talked about.

Ron, what kind of problems have you had with wet mounting?
 
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