Honest Employees ??

ArtimisArtWorks

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I had a tough day. We have (or should I say had) a wonderful ,wonderful employee. We just got concrete evidence that she padded her time sheet 1-2 hours a week. Since she worked alone some days it was hard to spot. The previous owner recently said that they had the same issue with this same employee for as far back as 10 years!! We became aware of it now and let her go as soon as we had proof. Being without her will be quite a hardship.

Here is my question...if you have a great...great employee that you can no longer trust do you fire them or keep them and not allow them to work alone anymore? Am I wrong to think that trust is essential?
 

Steph

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You are definitely wrong in thinking trust is essential. What is sad here is that this employee was allowed to do this for 10 years with previous owner. I think I would have at the very least, brought in a time clock, or use one on a POS system, and have done away witha time sheet. Not knowing exactly how it was handled past or present, it is hard to make a judgement. Wonderful employees are hard to come by. It seems like it became a habit for her that was easy to accomplish. It might not have been to cause intentional harm or to cheat. How did it all start, a decade ago when she may have been having money issues?
If you know you could have no longer felt trust with her no matter what then you did the right thing. A concern that I have is how or why did she start and what steps can be taken to ensure that you don't feel suspicious of every future employee? Timeclock?
 

DB

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Who knows what other liberties this employee might have been taking? When trust is gone, it's best to let them go. It's tough to learn that an otherwise good employee feels the need to steal in this way. This happened to me several years ago and prompted an addition to my security system. We had it set to report back weekly the time/date of each opening/closing when the alarm was turned on and off every day. If someone wrote in on their time card that they came in at 8:30 but the alarm was not turned off until 9:15, we had proof that they were padding their time card. Eventually we purchased a time clock to keep honest people honest.
 

johnny

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1-2 hours a week? For a pen and paper system that seems about as well as you can expect. Were they added on one day or spread out through the week? Was she simply rounding? Did they extend into overtime? We had employees write their hours down on time cards ages ago. Time clocks paid for themselves in short order. I don't have them anymore because we're a lot smaller now and they were complicated with magnetic cards and downloads into a central database over the telephone lines, but they were good when we needed them. People will just write down a close time if they do it by hand. After doing it for so long she may not have even figured she was breaking a trust. If they come in at 10:05 or even 10:10 they are probably going to write 10:00 at least some of the time. It's not going to register poorly on their moral scale like calling in and asking someone to buddy punch a time clock would. They may even figure "why not" since they might come in at 9:50 and write 10:00 sometimes, even though it really doesn't work that way. You can download free or cheap time card programs. I have one on installed on a point of sale computer. My current employees are honest to a fault but the computer program is still more accurate than doing it with a pen and paper.

However, if she was adding on a couple hours at the end of the week that's different.
 

stshof

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What happened when you let her go? How did she react? I think the tragedy here is she was allowed to do it for so long. I probably would have sat her down and listened to her story. But if the trust was gone, she would be too.
kaffeetrinker_2.gif
 

Dave

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Locks are for honest people. Timeclocks are just that...a lock...a security system.

Only a totally dishonest person will break a lock to steal something. A lock says this is important to somebody. No lock means "help yourself" to otherwise basically honest people.

You lost a star employee, but the fault could have easily been avoided. A time clock is not an affront to an honest employee. How do you think that the other employees felt. They were aware that this employee essentially gave herself a couple extra weeks pay a year.

It's a heartbreaker to have to let go any employee...and not the easiest task an owner/manager must too often take.

Side note:

Do not under any circumstances tell anyone else either inside or outside your organization why she was let go. You would set yourself up for a nasty lawsuit, that, even if you won the suit would cost thousands of dollars...I know. I ended up settling a suit for a dollar (I paid) to avoid the legal fees after firing an employee for theft of merchandise and money ($ 40,000.00). Even though I had a signed confession and documented proof with witnesses... I said nothing, but found out later that one of my store managers (her store), although she denied it, said something outside of our organization and to another employee.

I was sued for libel and most likely would have won the case...several thousand dollars later.

shrug.gif


Dave Makielski
 

Danimal

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Trust is essential!
In another life I used to manage a production workforce of 60 employees. These people watched their paychecks like Hawks and if their checks were ever short I knew about it immediately; every time. It happened sometimes, I wasn't perfect. If I had an employee I was considering for promotion I would tack on an extra four hours of pay and see if they brought it to my attention. If they did, I thanked them and told them not to worry about it. If they didn't tell me, I knew the level of trust I enjoyed with that person. I don't advocate this, I'm just telling you what I did.
The framer I have now is so blase about his pay I don't think he would notice. He was actually offered a job at another shop for $2.50 an hour more and turned it down. Said he liked working with me. I've gotta say that felt good.
 

Whynot

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One or two hour’s pay a week is what you call stealing? She was probably rounding up minutes. How much did you pay your best employee? $12/hr? Let's face it, what a thief is that who would nibble 20 plus dollars away from you after being left in charge alone with the shop? Are you serious? It's like she was smoking from your cigarettes and treating herself with a coffee or two a day on the house.
Having to replace such a wonderful worker would prove to be much more costly to you than buying a time-clock and helping her adjust her habits might have.
You are already sorry for letting her go and this is why you look for our support. When wonderful workers are so hard to find and takes so long to form, letting one go over such a minor issue is plain stupid. Call it trust issue, but in my opinion this thread is about very poor personnel managerial skills and putting a bullet in your shoe before taking it off your leg.
 

Emibub

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I'm curious if you counseled her before you let her go? If she knew you were concerned she might have corrected her self. I've been forced to keep on so many crappy employees over the years(My Michael's Years)who pulled more crap all I could do is tell them I was aware of what they were doing and try to reign them in that way. I also have had a handful of employees who were valuable to me that disappointed me on some level or another. I always found a way to let them know I was concerned about their behavior and usually the good ones straightened up. But, I always worked with their problems before letting them go.
 

Danimal

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WOW! That's harsh Whynot. I agree that it would have been a good idea to try and salvage the employee but we don't have the full story. Maybe something happened in their discussion with the employee that permanently damaged the relationship. Whatever happened to the benefit of a doubt?
 

realhotglass

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"WOW! That's harsh Whynot."

Oh, I think that's just Cornels way with words. It just looks worse to what he means : )

I like DBs' suggestion to update or install an alarm system with off / on reports, and just spot check form time to time.

Don't you guys have a warning system you need to follow to dismiss staff ?

Over here (Australia), a series of verbal and written warnings are needed to legally dismiss staff, and then you need to have shown some form of compromise / training to rectify an employees problem or fault(s).

Even then, employers can leave themselves open to unfair dismissal claims.

Oh, the only exemption to this is blatant theft, but from the description of this matter, that definition could be borderline (although technically correct).
 

ArtimisArtWorks

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During the discussion with her she basically looked at us with hate and disgust. The underlining attitude was that that she deserved the extra money. She made $16 and hour / 80 hours of vacation a year / and she only work 30 hours a week / a $500 Christmas bonus and $100 cash for her Birthday.

We were willing to work with her but we realized that she hated us for getting caught and that she would feel justified in getting even. (Ruin a customer’s work...opps accident???) We just found out about her stealing time, it was after we let her go that the former owner told us he had confronted her with it many times (unknown to us till now)

As far as a time clock I agree, but once you know that they are willing to steal time, what else have they taken? Once a person feels justified to steal, what can I do as an employer to make her feel she is paid enough for what she does? Can you ever change that mind set?
 

ArtimisArtWorks

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Whynot, you made me feel better about my decision already. You made me realize that with that attitude why stop with time, let’s do the cash drawer, then let’s move to the inventory. I am willing to work the extra hours needed to cover this hole. I don’t want to wake up in two years with 10k in missing inventory and be the idiot that says “But I thought she was only stealing time???” Shame on me if I put up with it!
 

realhotglass

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Then, you did the right thing.

You approached the matter to reconcile, but your gut feeling was that this would lead to an untenable result, so best to finish it.

Employees will always think they deserve more, sometimes correctly, and employers will always think they pay too much : )
 

Rock

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Originally posted by Whynot:
Let's face it, what a thief is that who would nibble 20 plus dollars away from you after being left in charge alone with the shop? Are you serious? It's like she was smoking from your cigarettes and treating herself with a coffee or two a day on the house.
Having to replace such a wonderful worker would prove to be much more costly to you than buying a time-clock and helping her adjust her habits might have.
Now that's the most rediculas thing I have ever heard. You want to reward this wonderful worker for stealing by not getting rid of them or what???
shrug.gif
And that's exactly what they was doing, stealing. I think I've heard everything now. If I had an employee that was ripping me off, that tells me they can not be trusted, period. They would be gone in a heartbeat.

Rock
 

johnny

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I still don't get it. Was she scheduled for 30 hours per week and worked them but reported 31 or 32? Was she scheduled for 30 but missed some time and reported 30 anyway? Or were her hours flexible and she went home when there was no work but posted that she left an hour later once or twice a week?
 

McPhoto

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One of the hardest things for new owners to overcome is the "well, the old owner let me do it" syndrome - - - let's face it old habits are hard to break.
My recommendation to anyone starting a business or taking over an existing business w/ employees is to immediately establish a "methods & policies" handbook. It can be as simple or as verbose as you need for your operation. Photo Marketing Assoc. (PPFA's affiliate) has an excellent one on CD that can be written to fit your needs. Have your atty. give it a look-over just to be sure you're not violating any fair labor laws, etc. Make a copy for every employee and have them sign a form that says they received it to put in your employee's record files. If the need ever arises, you have proof that the employee knew what the company policy was.
 

Paul N

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Stealing is stealing. Period.

He who robs a small bank is as much a thief as one who robs a bigger bank. At what point is it petty thievery and not a major one? 3 hours are OK but not 10?? I see no difference.

You did the right thing.

But for the future, as they say in German: Trust is good. Control is better.
 

JohnR

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Try to steal a 50 cent candy bar from the store. See what happens if you get caught. I agree stealing is stealing.

I had an employee who was a professional time waster. He's play solitaire or jack around on the computer until he's hear me or someone come up and then he'd flip screens to hide his actions. I gently prodded him about getting his work done but he still goofed off. I got into the habit of sneaking up quietly until I got to his door to see him flip into work mode. I told the VP about letting him go. The VP is kind of laid back and let it go on – until he witnessed it first hand!

How could I work around someone I can't trust? I don't.

John
 

TheDoctah

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I can see both sides of this issue, both the loss of trust and the loss of a valuable employee. Good employees are hard to find (we've been through a couple of software guys in the startup where I'm consulting in the last couple of weeks.) But trust is extremely important as well.

I would have approached the employee and addressed the situation, and if the employee were contrite I'd be on board to give him or her another chance. But if she or he gave me a baditude, it would be all over. Anyone can screw up. Anyone can develop bad habits. How they react when called to the carpet is crucial. Given the additional information provided, I think you did the right thing.
 

Whynot

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True, stealing is stealing by any other name. However, the amount being in discussion here made me think that that "wonderful worker" was not really a thief but rather a person with somewhat loose direction and vague ideas of her exact position in your shop.
Let's agree that nobody can steal more and longer from you than a highly qualified and trusted worker. A "wonderul worker" makes for a wonderfully potent and adroit thief /or enemy/ when things go bad.
Something is just not clicking right here. You either did not learn the whole extent of the damage that you suffered as yet, or that wonderfully qualified person was not really using her damaging potential. In my opinion your best qualified and trusted worker turned thief wouldn't just steal change from you but much more, in much subtler ways than what you described in here.
 

LeighAnn

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You did the right thing....

At 1.5 hours per week thats $1248 per year, plus the taxes you have to match. No one would put up with an employee taking $100 from the cash register every month, why would we put up with this?

I would be thinking about her being at the store by herself and wondering what else was going on... It would drive me crazy.

Again, you did the right thing.....
 

Val

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"The underlining attitude was that that she deserved the extra money. She made $16 and hour / 80 hours of vacation a year / and she only work 30 hours a week / a $500 Christmas bonus and $100 cash for her Birthday." Seems like there's more going on with her than stealing a couple of hours a week. That's pretty fair wages and benefits to have her think she deserved more. I think you did the right thing. Looking at you with hatred and disgust isn't about you at all, it's about her. Sounds like you nipped it before it turned into something much worse.
 

JRB

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Many years ago, Len Aaron and I where discussing this exact topic. I had discovered one of our store managers was pilfering his art supplies. I was young, my feeling was to let him go. Len asked me, other than that, how good a job does he do?

The guy was one of our top producers, the amount he was pilfering amounted to a few hundred dollars a month. Len went on to say, in retail, or just about any business, there is going to be a certain amount of pilfering. He said there is a little larceny in just about everyone.

OK, this was the zinger..... He said "If it's a good employee who is producing, I don't mind if a small amount of pilfering takes place now and then, I almost expect it. Just so long as there is a little left over for me."

The lesson here is, don't cut off your nose to spite your face. You had a good employee who had given herself a raise, I & 1/2 hours a week. She obviously had the type of personality who liked to think they are getting away with something, so, let her, whats the big deal?

We should not allow ourselves to be so rule governed that it ends up hurting our business, or our personal lives for that matter. Practicing a little tolerance can go a long way for you.

John
 

Tim Hayes.

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You must explain to every employee before you hire them or when you take over a business exactly what you expect. If you assume they have the same values or work ethicthat you do, you leave yourself vulnerable to just this sort of problem. It is also a good idea to review these things on a regular basis. This might be something as simple as verbalizing your definition of stealing. I feel that it is wrong to surf porn sites on the internet during work hours (or any time for that matter) so I have told this to employees in no uncertain terms. I have also told them not to smoke in the building. It is wrong to accept cash payment from customers and pocket the cash. Sleeping during work hours is not okay. You might be surprised what people think is perfectly ok.
 

Whynot

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Allowing some room for credit card frauds actually costs banks less money than trying to make the system more secure than that, and I don’t think framing shops are operating in better business circumstances than those in which banks are.
Fully entrusting an employee, as if she was an extension of you, is naïve. The more employees you have, the harder and less reasonable trying to avoid any loss becomes. We hire our employees for the money they can make for us, not predominantly for how much we can trust them. Cameras, time-clocks, avoiding routines and open eyes are to take care of the last part. Trust is to be built and tested over many years. It can’t be extended up front and cheating spouses, friends or employees are here to constantly remind us what an inept guardian naked trust makes.
I am afraid that you’ll be loosing much more by not having a “wonderful worker” than those 16 or 30 dollars a week (“raise”) that you saved. I also believe that you might have saved both that little money and the “wonderful” worker’s benefits had you not cornered your employee in such a way that parting became mandatory. You are in business to make money, not to better other people’s characters at your expense (peace of mind), although I am the first to admit that having a business run with wonderful working angels is one of most enviable thing to have.
 

Elaine

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First, define "Good employee"

stealing, altering records, taking product,wasting production time, does not fit into my description of "good employee"

I have learned a lesson in this respect recently with an employee at my other store. I trusted him, we had a good working relationship, he could tell me what he thought, give me ideas, came to work on time,etc. I thought I had a "good employee" UNTIL, I started noticing descrepancies in packs of ones, and store product. Consistently, I was finding ones missing from counted packs, so I addressed it and asked the question "how many ones are supposed to be in the packs when we count them and clip them "$25" - I kept finding 24, and one day found $4 missing from a pack of $50. This employee was always buying lottery tickets - do you think I shared in the winnings of those tickets?? I think those ones paid for it! Anyway, I did a 6 month review, addressed the positive, the need improvement, and the "greater concern" areas. I stated that I was very concerned about the descrepancies in the cash and product - his reply "if you are talking about soda, I owe you for those" SO, is this theft or borrowing??? He did not have permission to take product without paying; he received an employee discount on anything he purchased. He wasn't even buying stuff, he was just taking it. What boggled my mind, was that in his mind, he didn't consider this theft. He was borrowing with no intent to pay, and told me to give him a bill! I said, "how can I give you a bill, when I don't know how much you took"
He also was a time waster - he had permission to draw (he's an artist) AFTER all his work was done and the store was in tip top shape and there were no customers. When the work was noticably not being done, I did spot checks at 10:30 in the morning and he would be drawing! To me, that is a theft of another kind.

I guess I just think that if its in someone to pad their hours, or take product, its in them - no amount of counseling will stop it. I would be willing to work harder and probably be more profitable without the losses than to have one of those "good employees" in my space.

speaking from experience, but I think that things work out for the best in situations like this.

my 2 cents

Elaine
 

Ron Eggers

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It pains me to admit this, but Cornel makes sense.

So many of the decisions we make as employers, or as business-people in general, are based on emotional reactions instead of sound business practices. Our emotions dictate who will work for us and what kind of matboard we use.

It's a bit easier for me to step back and consider my own irrational and impulsive decisions during 28 years of business now that I'm in a business where a premium is placed on objective decision-making and cold statistics.

That being said, it's very hard to work with someone you don't believe you can trust 100%, which is why so many of us end up working alone.
 

HannaFate

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A fact of life is that most people have flexible morals. Places I have worked where the employees have no respect for the boss, (usually because the boss doesn't deserve it!)petty theft and padding was rife. Places where the boss was better at handling people, only one or two people cheated.

There are always going to be that one or two people who feel like they have to "get away with" some little thing or other. Usually, just one thing will keep them happy, and they don't go on to other cheats.

If she "got away" with padding her time sheet for 10 years, she probably didn't get raises, either. The employer caught it, and, instead of firing an otherwise good employee, just compensated by not raising her pay.

It's a neurotic relationship, but it would work.

Your decision to not put up with this is based on your fiber. If you don't want to respond to cheating by cheating in return, you had no choice.

It is likely that, if you had taken action to prevent her cheating on her time sheet, she would either have quit, or found so other small way to skim. That's how this kind of mindset works.

Find yourself someone who respects you that doesn't have this need to "get away with things". You, and your employee, will be happier.
 

Danimal

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I think the credit card example that Whynot used doesn't hold water. (Is Whynot actually Cornel?)True, they are making more money by allowing fraud to continue rather than put in place the safeguards necessary to stop it. The missed point here is that the consumer is the one paying the bill. Ever been a victim of identity theft? The banks and credit institutions are playing fast and loose with your personal information because they can make more money than if they put in the required safeguards to protect that information. And they don't care about the victims; people who sometimes go to jail for fraud because they were victims of identify theft.

Another point, if you allow a small amount of pilferage to continue when you know it is happening, you are setting a precedent that this behaviour is acceptable. Other employees will see this and also think it is acceptable.
Ok, so now you have established that petty theft is acceptable. You have an employee that is taking more than this arbitrary level you accept. So, you fire them. And they take you to the labor board and prove that you condoned petty theft. Now the thief is going to get unemployment at your expense. Also, how would like to lose a court case and pay damages and back pay to this thieving employee that you fired?

I acknowledge this is a worst case scenerio but you have to take things to the extreme to understand your vulnerability. Theft is wrong, no matter how small.
 

Susan May

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OMG!!! So why are there so many people who will allow a theif to run their store?

We had a lady who worked for us for over ten years. She did every job in the store, from running the register, to helping train the new employees. She was such a part of our lives, that she even babysat my daughter.

We caught her padding her time card, and made the mistake of not talking to her. We had to close that store, because we were not making ends meet. 15 months later, her next boss called us and told us that she had been arrested for GRAND THEFT. She had not only padded her time at the new store, but she stole product, and money from the register. In 15 months she took over 30 thousand dollars worth.

That kind of theft is not done by a beginner. She had practiced at our store, and we didn't notice until hindsight kicked in. We saw it, but didn't want to. She was a Clepto.

She was found guilty, and sent to jail.

Do you think that I should have just "Let it go?" I don't! We should have talked to her about what we knew was happening. We might have been able to get her help, stop the process before it got out of hand. By not talking to her, we allowed it to become a MAJOR problem.

And... we should have fired her when we saw her padding the time clock. The police told us that.
 

JRB

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If you have an employee who is not up there in the lofty "good" employee department. You may also be experiencing a few management problems as well. Consider looking at yourself for a few seconds.

Have you established written controls for your business, such as an employee handbook that spells out what is expected? When you hand these booklets out to your employees, did you have them sign a document that they received it? If you use a cash register, is it counted out at the beginning and end of each shift? Even if you only employ one or two people, cash register control is at the top of the list. Cash registers come with operator identification keys, usually found at the top of the keypad, have you assigned a key to everyone who uses the register? Do you spot check and make sure they use the correct operator key?

Just about every problem that arises from so called dishonest employees, can be traced back to a lazy manager.

Look within grasshopper, the problem could be you.

John
 

Ron Eggers

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There is a rule among recreational SCUBA divers: Never dive alone.

There is another, mostly unspoken, rule among experienced divers: Never dive with someone who is less competent than you. (You end up baby-sitting.)

The direct result of rule #2 is that you always end up diving alone.

I submit that you will never, ever find an employee who is as honest as you are, and certainly not one that cares as much about your business.
 

Paul N

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By the way, for those who are contemplating a way to control their employees' work hours / time cards:

Some POS systems, LifeSaver for example, have this function built in. This way you may not have to go and buy expensive hardware to arrive at the same result.

There is a thread on the forum where this function is fully described.

Here: LifeSaver as TimeClock
 

Dave

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I'm truly shocked at the amount of tolerance people are saying they are willing to accept when it comes to INTEGRITY. Someone stealing on any level has breached a trust. It totally sends the wrong signal to accept any level of theft.

I will restate that locks are for honest people. It is up to management to put in safeguards and checks and balances. It is also up to management to have a level of integrity that is beyond reproach. A lack of integrity upon owner/managers will filter down through an entire organization.

Most employees have no concept of the business side of an organization. A company may be going bankrupt, but the employees won't believe it and think the owners are raking it in as they mortgage their homes and cash in their retirement funds in order to keep employees on the payroll.

Most owners feel much more loyalty to their employees than is generally returned to them. It is unfortunate but true. If you think otherwise you are fooling yourself. It is rare that an employee will sacrifice anything for the survival of a company.

Dave Makielski
 

Elaine

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From
Skaneateles,NY USA
I agree with Dave. I put in place controls, had discussions, etc. and I have always been considered good with managing people (past life), but it didn't matter. I REFUSE to take on guilt of poor management for a poor employee's ethics - I have no control over that piece of the pie. Because, honestly, I did feel like I had failed when I realised there was theft, but after addressing it, I realized that the employee felt no remorse, no guilt - NOTHING.

Employees - there are good, bad, & just plain ugly! There just seems to be more bad than good these days.

my 2 cents - whoops, I forgot, the employee took that too!!
shrug.gif


elaine
 

Whynot

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Dec 16, 2000
Posts
1,277
From
North-East US
Originally posted by Elaine:
First, define "Good employee"

stealing, altering records, taking product,wasting production time, does not fit into my description of "good employee"
.............
Elaine
What you described above is definitely not the picture of a "wonderful worker" who padded her time sheet by 1-2 ours a week.
Your "good employee" is perfectly qualified to be squarely fired on the spot without more asking for other grumblers' opinion.
While padding one's time sheet is certainly something I wouldn't condone, it is still a petit felony per say, one that would allow for full rehabilitation if properly addressed. I think it pays the extra pain and effort to save (and rehabilitate) a "wonderful worker".
 

Bandsaw

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Posts
973
Your "wonderful,wonderful" employee is gone.

"Being without her will be quite a hardship."

How much did having her cost?

How much will letting her go cost?

Will your bottom line be better?

will your business survive?

Hard nosed business decisions - nothing more.

Assign working hours yourself and each week the hours sheet is agreed to and signed by both of you.

Ordinary business management - nothing more.

You're in business now - high school is behind you.
 

Framing Goddess

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Jul 18, 2000
Posts
4,309
From
Cleveland, Ohio
What I find most disturbing is the attitude of this employee. This tells me that she is probably un-rehabilitatable.

Little things I can work with- consistent low-key lateness or moodiness, but it sounds like she felt entitled to take these liberties with your good nature and your business. Who knows what would have been next?

I would have based a lot on the 'confrontation'- if she looked at you with such rancor, what could you have done with that? Even if you would have tried to work things out, she would have probably gone on to sabotage your business... further.

Don't ask me how I know this.

Be glad she's gone. She held you hostage long enough.

edie the itsapaininmylife goddess
 

Paul N

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Posts
17,354
From
CT, not far from the LI Sound
Warning: Long post and an observation on society on a slippery road.

What really bugs me, is this sense of entitlement that seems to prevail and permeate our society.

So, a "good" employee feels it is OK to steal anything from 2 hours per week to office supplies, to playing Solitaire on the employer's time, because, hey, they deserve more and they are entitled to it. And many people see nothing wrong with that.

This evil, corrupt sense of entitlement is everywhere you look and is shrugged off by members of our society in its state of total mental stupor, including each and every single one of us; from those who think they are entitled to pollute, to exploit nature, to kill any animal that moves, to politicians who think it is their God given right to take bribe money because it is legalized and called donations and campaign contributions.

Ask any politician and they will tell you they are entitled to this, it is a form of free speech after all! And should, God forbid, this become illegal, they won't be able to serve the public anymore. And looking at the posts on this forum, many employers think employee theft is a part of their acceptable business environment.

I am not sure it is an American phenomena, but it sure looks like it. People are not grateful they have a job anymore, they want to get more on top of that, even if it is through theft.

A CEO's billion $ in salary is not enough, insider trading, a golden parachute and lifelong company jet is their entitlement. And this drizzles all the way down through the ranks till it is an acceptable social behavior.

When society looks at its inner core, sees progressive rot and assumes nothing is wrong, then what is one to expect?
 

JohnR

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Jan 1, 2005
Posts
542
From
Ohio
Paul,
Martha Stewart annoys me the most. Guilty, imprisonment, now back in the limelight.
----
Back to the original post. Her previous employer confronted her several times about it. How many chances does a crook deserve?
 

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Aug 12, 2000
Posts
7,106
From
San Diego, CA
A few years ago, children were told that they "would not amount to anything unless they finished high school." That was later altered to, "If you want a good job, you better finish high school." Then the same lines where delivered for college. We now have several generations of young people who did as they where told and are now waiting on tables, working at fast food joints, convenience stores, wall mart, and yes, picture frame shops. In other words, the promises about "if you do these things" they where not kept.

These people finished high school, they finished college and they have crappy jobs. In the days before the promises, we had trade schools, we understood not everyone is cut out to be among the upper educated.

A person could finish a trade school and earn a decent living, buy a house, raise a family, even save a little for retirement.

We now have the promise from our government that no child will be left behind. We closed our trade schools and we have thousands upon thousands of young folks going to college and university who have absolutely no clue whatsoever what they want to be or what kind of career waits for them.

They graduate to discover they have no salable skills at all, yet they were promised a great living if they got an education.

Of course they are pissed off, and yes, disillusioned. This is why they have no work ethic, think it's OK to steal, or just show up to work and not feel that they should have to do any work at all. They where bullshitted from the word go. What should we expect?

There is a whole lot more to it than just the education fiasco, these kids are spoiled rotten, we are not allowed to impose any kind of discipline on them except for "Time Out" or a cut in their allowance.

We protect their self esteem, we lower the basketball hoop, they must not think as individuals, they must be part of the team.

The only jobs most of them will qualify for will be government jobs. And why not? they are being raised by the government, educated by bureaucrats. Parents have little or nothing to do with raising their kids anymore.

How can we expect them to have character, be self motivated, honest and hard working? they have never been taught or had any experience in any of those things.

John

Now that was a good rant.
 

ArtimisArtWorks

Grumbler
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 14, 2002
Posts
17
From
Ohio
Wow ....Thanks for all the responses. I appreciated all of your opinions.

Today was the first day I covered her shift, and it felt great. I feel a deep sense of having made the right decision based on all the information I had. Her husband called after I let her go and said " I know she has a lot of problems, and caused problems for you but you are putting my family in jeopardy" I replied "No she is responsible for her actions and ultimately there is a consequence"

I also found out she had called all the other employees to gain favor. I have been told that they really liked working with her, but felt that I must have had a good reason to do what I did.

We try live our life with honor and integrity. We go out of our way to be fair and respectful to our employees. We will not tell the other employees what she did, our honest business practices will have to speak for themselves.


FYI her husband just called again and left a message on the machine and asked for her "termination papers to be sent ASAP as required by law"

What ???

So I will have our attorney guide me in what to do from here. It should be an interesting turn. I will keep you posted. Thank god I keep really really good notes!

No good deed goes unpunished!
 

CharlesL

PFG, Picture Framing God

In Memorium

Rest In Peace



Joined
Apr 9, 2001
Posts
7,255
From
Clayton, NC
How many employers, bosses or shop owners can look in the mirror and say, without a shadow of a doubt, "I have reported ALL of my income to the IRS, not leaving out a penny? How many can say, "I drive my car to work, but not FOR work. I'm going to show the maximum allowable number of deductible mileage!" How many can say, "I have ALWAYS put cash sales in the till and written receipts for that cash! Never even bought a cup of coffee out of the register?"

Who doesn't fudge just a little on their taxes? If you report one cent less than you made, you're untrustworthy, dishonest and a damned thief, as much so as an employee who 'steals' an hour of pay per week. But it seems ok because you're a 'business owner' and, after all, you're just cheating the IRS. A thief is a thief.
 

UzZx32QU

Founder of the G
Forum Donor
Charter Member
Joined
Nov 29, 1999
Posts
5,014
Any person can be replaced.

I believe in time clocks.

Be tolerant but not naive in your employer, employee relationship.

The best time to fire someone is when you first consider it.

I'm with Ron, I work alone by choice.

framer
 

JohnR

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Jan 1, 2005
Posts
542
From
Ohio
Artimis,
I'm not a lawyer, but I believe in Ohio, you can terminate an employee for any reason including, “I felt like it”.

He probably wants the “pink slip” if you just sent her out the door empty handed.
 

jframe

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Charter Member
Joined
Jan 1, 1997
Posts
4,251
From
Fort Worth, Texas
How many employers, bosses or shop owners can look in the mirror and say, without a shadow of a doubt, "I have reported ALL of my income to the IRS, not leaving out a penny?
I do!

How many can say, "I drive my car to work, but not FOR work. I'm going to show the maximum allowable number of deductible mileage!"
I do!

How many can say, "I have ALWAYS put cash sales in the till and written receipts for that cash! Never even bought a cup of coffee out of the register?
Always and NEVER!

Am I a fool? Probably.
 

Ron Eggers

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 6, 2001
Posts
16,932
From
Wisconsin
you can terminate an employee for any reason including, “I felt like it”.
I believe that's called "at-will" employment and there are limitations.

In Wisconsin, the employee would probably file for unemployment compensation and, if you don't want your account drained and your rates raised, it would be your burden to prove the cause of termination.

As someone previously mentioned, if you should ever happen to get a call from a prospective employer about your ex-employee, you'd want to verify the dates of employment and nothing more. This is a case where telling the whole truth could get you in very big trouble.
 

Paul N

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Posts
17,354
From
CT, not far from the LI Sound
Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
As someone previously mentioned, if you should ever happen to get a call from a prospective employer about your ex-employee, you'd want to verify the dates of employment and nothing more. This is a case where telling the whole truth could get you in very big trouble.
That's the sad truth. That's why bad employees get rehired and the circle repeats itself.

But on the bright side, it prevents a disgruntled EMPLOYER from bad mouthing a good employee too.
 
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