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johnny

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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Jun 7, 2004
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Ohio
Had a customer last week who brought in several pieces to be framed having first gone to Michael's for a quote. She said the salesperson at Michael's said "You'll be back!" in a egotistical sort of way and said that if my prices were any lower they would take either another 10% off theirs or 10% off mine, whichever was lower. Mine were higher but I got the work. Anyway, if you think you can compete on price, they are willing to keep lowering theirs. I don't know if they told her 50% off or 70% off to begin with.

Someone just brought in something I framed for him several years ago. It's a scorecard from Augusta and golf ball he used and some other mementos framed in a shadowbox... says he still gets compliments on it all the time and drove here to get another made (he's moved since). My price for another one with 6 windows and items total using a 2" deep Larson Juhl frame, 14 x 20, crescent suede matting, was $215.00. The accompanying print, 27 x 15, 1.5" wide Larson frame, crescent suede, conservation glass, was $210.00.

He comes back an hour later and cancels the order. He told his wife the price and she said "No way, you go to Michaels" so he went there before coming back and got a quote, same look to the frames and suede matting. They quoted him $412.00 less 50%, so $206.00 total for both items. He wants to know why I'm so expensive. I told him there is no way on earth they are going to give you what I am for that price, I'm not expensive. He didn't know how I could stay in business.

I think my prices were pretty f'n good.

We're completely re-doing the place, not that we were bad to begin with... repainted all the walls, new displays, new furniture and fixtures, signage, sculpture, artwork, coffee service to try and further distance ourselves from a discount mentality. Seems to be working, then crap like this happens.
 
i feel for ya.
it sounds like your doing all you can to set yourself apart...

and for pete's sake he called you expensive when your price was a measly 10 dollars more? WTH?
to have it done right 10 bucks is a deal!
 
It's still true.

If preceived lowest price is the consumer's main concern, the bigbox stores will beat us every time.

Our prices aren't always higher, and our work is nearly always better. But none of that matters when the consumer is bombarded with ads in the Sunday paper every week claiming the best frame is the cheapest frame, and discounts up to 70%.

Our postcards/newsletters claiming high quality, sent to a few thousand customers a few times a year, pale in comparison with the marketing impact of the bigboxes professional ad campaigns.

The reality is that the consumer's perception is more important than our good intentions. And a little white lie repeated a million times is more powerful than absolute truth spoken once.

That customer will probably realize that you were right, and he made a mistake to buy the cheaper framing. But it would be awkward for him to come back to you and admit it. He's more likely to try JoAnn next time.
 
No no no, I didn't explain well... My prices were double. Michael's was doing them for $206 total for 2 framings, or $103 each on average. I really don't see how that's possible, and told the customer so, but he swore blind.
 
Take what you pay for that Larson frame and divide it by 6 or possibly 8 or 10 and that’s what they probably paid for their frame? You see we cannot compete with these guys when the lower end of our frames starts much higher than theirs.

What I find comforting is that we too can get similar moulding (if not the exact same thing) for a similar price. But this may require having a few mouldings that are "lower" than your standards and buying from an evil company like Decor, Wall, or Omega and will certainly force you to order more than 10' at a time.

What would your price be for that job if your cost for the moulding were $6? I'll bet their was about that. To me the question isn’t IF I can compete but how bad I WANT to compete. That is a much tougher topic for me to decide where I stand.
 
Whenever I have clients come in and compare our prices with other shops in our area, I always try to stress to them that we really need to compare apples to apples-a good majority of the time, we're not on the same page with exact mouldings, mats, etc. Our clients usually understand after we explain the facts to them. We also stress that we are an independent custom picture framer and that seems to resonate strongly with our clients. Just my two cents worth...
Julia
 
Psst, Julia, do you also mention the great Thai restraunt just down the street?? LOL

If you're going head to head with Michael's, design with LJ and tell your customer to match that price on the #--- --- moulding. Tell them that it is a universal moulding number and that ALL of the POS systems have it in there....

Anything else that "looks like it" is a "knock-off", and really, between us, would you serve you family "knock-off beef" drive on "knock-off tires", or get a "Knock-off heart by-pass"?
 
You are never going to compete price wise with a big box. It is a total waste of time even considering it. The big box operations are catering to the price conscious consumer, not the design conscious consumer.

We can compete with them on a few price levels, like poster specials and such, but not across the board. Where they can not compete is on selection, service, and design. Like our poster specials, they can compete some of the time, not all of the time, with their designs.

In San Diego, we have a double whammy. The big boxes, plus, Tijuana is just seventeen miles away. This is nickle and dimers heaven.

They are actually doing us some good though, just doesn't seem like it.

They spend an unbelievable amount of money on advertising. This advertising blitz is keeping the public conscious, and aware, of picture framing in general. It keeps our craft, and the need for it, out there.

Granted, it is pulling most folks in their direction, but it also reminds OUR customers of the need for framing.

The most important thing we can do, as small independents, is advertise as much as our budgets will allow, so at least, we will have a chance of being thought of, when the need arises.

There is nothing much we can do about the big box operations, they are here to stay. Look after your own store, forget them.

John
 
First of all I agree that competeing on price with a BB is Futile. But I can't help but remember a sign I used to see in a Pizza parlor.

Do any of you remember Shakey's Pizza's? There used to be a few around here. One had a bunch of comic relief signs on their Dinnig area walls.

The one that this reminds me of said "We don't argue with any of our competitors who charge less for their products .They KNOW what they are worth."

This may not always be true in Framing but when they get down that low ,some how I just have a feeling they are leaveing something out. And we know only too welll you don't see all that goes into good framing from the front view while finished and hangiing on the wall.But the consummers don't. So are you showing them why your's is worth every penny you charge? Maybe then they will ask for the same things at the BB. If they still keep charging those rock bottom prices ,maybe JoAnn's isn't the only stock that will drop.
BUDDY
BUDDY
 
John I don’t think we disagree except I say that we absolutely can compete on price but our stores would end up looking and operating just like them. I don’t know many people who even have an interest in going that route but it certainly can be done.

Most of us see a need for different selections or services they offer so were forced to go other directions and that in fact makes competing on price alone a waist of time.

This customer must have been willing to sacrifice some quality for a better price. This isn’t a crime. So why not show him any one of your “value line” mouldings? To me this would make sense even if there were no such thing as a BB. Keep em happy or lose them forever right?

This is not the way I like to do business. I would much rather be able to sell a better product and have all my customers respect that and take me for my word. Unfortunately the number of people that are more price conscious are growing. Some of them I don’t care to satisfy. Some of them I can’t satisfy. But when they walk because of something I wouldn’t/couldn’t sale, I get this uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach that says, “YOU WILL NEVER SEE THEM OR POSSIBLY THEIR FRIENDS AGAIN”. Yuck.
 
what is your biggest cost in framing for a customer? Is it the frame? I usually buy the best box deals I can find at the Atlanta show. A few suppliers offer their best prices at these shows. The last 2 shows have given me the twenty box price, for buying just 15 boxes, and if I bought 20 boxes, they knocked off another 10% off the 20 box price. This purchase cost me 1950$, and usually will last me the whole year. I still special order moulding for customers, but they will get the best price on the show special moulding.
 
I worked for Aaron Brothers thirty years ago, during the period they switched from Aaron Brothers Picture and Frame Galleries to Aaron Brothers Art Mart. I was with them when they first went public.

I sat in just about every meeting, I know how the decisions are made. If they decided that another company was a genuine threat to their existence, believe me, that company would play **** competing.

If you think you can compete with them in a price war, unless you have the buying power of over five hundred stores, guess again.

Also, understand, that is the last thing in the world they would want to do, at least in my days with them. Len Aaron absolutely believed that there was enough business out there for everybody. In every case that rumblings about competition came up, he always squelched them immediately.

Myself, I believe the man is right. We and we alone are in charge of our business's. It is up to us how we choose to handle perceived competition. A price war is just plain stupid. Sure, compete where you can price wise. Just don't forget why people choose us, over the big box operations.

It is not price, I'll guarantee you that.

John
 
The reason people choose our shop over the BB's is our service, our design skills, our friendliness, our turn-around time, and our quality. I would rather have 4 customers who want to spend an hour designing a l/e print they treasure than haggle with 20 cheap-o's about cheap ready-mades with paper mats and no glass. If $39.95 is too much to pay for a nice plein aire frame with closed corners, then "hit the road, Jack.. there's a Michael's just down the street". These people waste my time, sap my energy, and put me in a MOOD.
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We do carry ready mades and offer poster specials, for our "lower-end" customers, and they appreciate it. Artists, in particular, come to us for the ready-mades, and we appreciate them. But I'm not going to argue any more with people who want to "jerk my chain" about our prices. Our repeat business is very high, so that tells me we do a good job.

And the next time a fat cat in a Jaguar wants to hang out and complain about having to spend $250 to custom frame all of his football memorabilia from high school, in front of other customers!... he can just go stand in line at the local BB and see if he can get anyone there to care. (Of course I smile when I say that.)

(PS to our local highway crew: Next time you're out there spraying that toxic crap to defoliate the roadside - hit that Jaguar for me. Thanks.)
 
Originally posted by treeves:
what is your biggest cost in framing for a customer? Is it the frame?
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In my shop our biggest cost is usually direct labor to build it, the exception being when we buy an expensive chop or an assembled frame.

Another cost, ranking third-highest and often forgotten, is sales/design time, which averages almost 25 minutes per frame in my store. I guess that is high, but our framing jobs are getting more complicated; the simple ones go to M, JA, or HL.
 
Jim, I think you hit the tack on the head there. We may feel happy about that $450 frame job with the double fabric mat and the 2 hours to do all the work in the frame.... but a lot of time we forget about the hour or more hand-holding through the design process.

It is rare that you can throw down the right fillet-mat-frame-frame-glass, quote the person and get the nod in under 5 minutes.

That is one of the biggies, IMHO, about POS systems. First, they ARE faster. Second, it is the price the COMPUTER SAYS, not just some invaluable number you just pulled out of the wind to start the bidding. Third, you can embed a certain labor time into everything that will hopefully start to cover the design time.

I would have to rank COGS in the terms of Labor, Glass, frame, mat, mount, other.

Glass over frame because there are a lot of ConClear pieces out there that irritate even me when you have to cut into a 16x20 lite to get a 4"x 17" piece. [Now . . are you going to save that extra 12x20 untill it is scratched?]
 
There is one more thing that WE have as an avantage, Larson Juhl no longer sells to Micheals. So if they want the real deal they have to come to us. Just like if you want a real Rolex, you don't go to Wal-mart to get it.

I use that to my advantage. Did you see this months Traditional Home Magizine. There it is, the Brand name Larson Juhl with a full page ad, and that is what the high end customers want. We just need to support Larson Juhls effort to advertize and make us look good.

We all know that BB are cheaper but we are not selling cheap framing! :D

Sell the brand, not just the design. The designs are all good but people who were Rolex want name brand. There are alot of Watches out there but none say "money" like a Rolex! Let's talk about, promote and sale the Larson Juhls and Romas out there and make our shops special!

I want my customers to want what no BB can offer, Name Brand Custom Framing. I'd like to hear designers saying things like, "Yes that's a Larson Juhl frame", and it mean something in the high end customers world.

It's all about marketing and branding in my opiton.

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Jennifer
 
Jennifer,
Joanne ETC five miles down the road from me (as well as scores of other Joanne's) sells and displays and promotes the whole regular LJ line. This includes fillets, artique mats as well as CC and Museum glass.
They have a perpetual 50% sale running. It's a legitimate half price deal.
Do you want to promote this brand?
FYI.

edie the imnotkidding goddess
 
I don't live near a Joannes so I didn't know that they carried Larson. I live near a Hobby Lobby and a Micheals and they don't carry name brand.

I was told by my rep that the Craig Ponzio line was not suppose to be sold in discount stores at all. Just the bread and butter line. So there is your difference.

Also, I would bet that in the next little bit that Joannes will do what Micheals did and start going over seas and buying thier own mouldings.It's alot cheaper and all of the BB's are now doing it.

If they are selling the Craig Ponzio line to Joannes, I would complain to my rep.(Not that it will do any good).

Jennifer
 
Originally posted by J Phipps TN:

I was told by my rep that the Craig Ponzio line was not suppose to be sold in discount stores at all. Just the bread and butter line. So there is your difference.
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Just by casual observation I have spotted Imperial and Castillano, both Craig Ponzio lines at Joann's. They were clearly marked on the back as Ponzio's, although I think Joann's has their own numbering system for their moulding. So, even the high end expensive stuff they left for us is being sold as a discount line.

Plus, Michael's let Lj go, not the other way around. Michael's made deals with Nielsen/Bainbridge and TruVue to buy directly from them so they no longer needed the middleman(LJ). They still carry a handful of LJ mouldings.

Just clearing up misconceptions on this rather hot(100 degrees)day.........

carry on!
 
When the very very first customer comes in my door and requests moulding manufactured by "XXXXXX" I'll start carrying the entire line. It hasn't happened yet even once. Stay tuned.

Carry on.
 
Having, in a darker moment, actually worked at a Michael's(at Xmas time no less!) I can tell you that one of the places they really cut corners is with the employee cost. They don't have to train to cut mats, moulding, or do any custom work- it all comes ready to assemble and 99% of the frames come joined. They pay minimum wage, and hire only 1 or 2 full timers to cut benefits costs(they were only willing to pay me $8/hour when I had 4 years experience) They don't train in customer service, design techniques, preservation, or handling of art.

So, in addition to buying everything direct from the manufacturer in bulk, they spend very little on their employees. This is how they (and place like Wal-Mart) are able to discount prices. It's nearly impossible for a small business to compete with this.

In my experience, if price is the only thing that the customer is worried about, I am better off sending them to a BB then spending hours picking out the cheapest stuff and having to listen to them whine about how expensive I am. What I really enjoy are the people who whine, but then pay my price anyways because they can't stand the service or the smell at BBs.
 
Actually, Tim, it's even simpler than that.

But I am going to be a bit long-winded getting to my point. Bear with me.

I place a mimimum of emphasis on the emotional part of my decisions about what moulding companies to showcase on my expensive walls.

I look at a lot of different factors when deciding who to even consider. I will indeed consider such variables as, do I LIKE the company, who they sell to, what 'image' they project and advertise, how easy they are to do business with, where they advertise, who they hire, etc. But the most compelling and overriding reason is simply this: do they sell?

If yes, then I display them. If not, then why bother? If they sell like gangbusters and I really like doing business with the company, then I will even SHOWCASE them, feature the product in an in-store display or build a promotion around them.

Sometimes I am convinced that something will sell and I am stunned to watch it gather dust.

I try to fit in time to analyze WHY a moulding does not sell:

Is it the price?

Do I have something similar but nicer for the same price?

Or is it too unusual or just plain ugly?

Does my competition have the same thing for less?

Does my competition have the same thing for less and promote the heck out of it?

Does my competition have the same thing for less, promote the heck out of it and have a HUGE marketing budget?

Does my competition have the same thing for less, promote the heck out of it with their HUGE marketing budget and sell styrofoam balls and day-glo paint in the next aisle?

Do you see what I am getting at?

This is where knowing your market will assist you and hopefully help to minimze any further buying botches. I shop the big boxes regularly and I KNOW what they have on their walls. There is inevitably some overlap, I DO still carry some of that same thing. But let's just say, they're the bridesmaids at my framing party here, not the brides.

There are many small framers like me who like to say, "MY customers don't shop- let alone frame- at those places."
They are wrong. Our customers are smart, they shop around, they are aware of brands, they work long hours and are grateful to find a framer who is open after 6, is surrounded by a huge parking lot and who carries a very popular, high quality brand AT A SUBSTANTIAL, well-advertised discount. They don't care that the person behind the counter has six months experience, they don't care about the day-glo paint. They just want to get their framing done for the best price. Notice I didn't say for 'the cheapest price,' I said the 'best price.' They need (and deserve) assurance that they are getting the best price possible. Are our designs really that much better, maybe $20.00 better, but $120.00 better? Just something to consider.

Many of us here have had private discussions about this, we DO get shopped by these folks and many of us have gotten spanked by it. Johnny included.

It's just another factor (or series of factors) to consider when deciding who to favor on our walls. Just yer basic FYI.

I am not one to blindly LJ bash, indeed I can still sell some of their profiles and at a competitive price. But not all of them. It is important to me to know WHICH I can sell. Hence, "know your market."

All that I have said here, I have told to my LJ rep and even his higher-up.

edie the justdoinmyjobthebestiknow goddess
 
Our Michael's only uses Bainbridge Art Care Mats, yes, they do have suede mats. They only have conservation glass, and yes, they quoted me Perfect View. I was told that no tape or glue would touch my artwork and all product inside was Artcare. I could see a person in the workshop lining the frame with sealing tape.

I compared my pricing for a 20x30 piece, using Bainbridge Artcare mats, conservation mounting, and Reflection Control UV Glass, Larson 548W. My price was less than $10.00 different than M's. They had perfect view glass (I don't have pricing for Perfect View on my program). So, in actuality, Perfectview being slightly better than Reflection Control UV, they had better quality for about the same price. The kicker here is that they then offer 50% off on the framing. I can't afford to offer 50% off on my framing.
 
Originally posted by johnny:
No no no, I didn't explain well... I really don't see how that's possible, and told the customer so, but he swore blind.
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I think your explanation was good. And I think you're right - it can't be a frame equal to yours in design or construction, or maybe both.
But the real problem is that the customer lends more credence to their low price than to your good quality.
Another problem might be your offering. Perhaps you should shop for better values in the materials you buy, buy smarter, and otherwise work to lower your costs. Then you can come closer to their prices.
Still, I caution against trying to compete on price. Beat them where you can - with quality & service, such as quick delivery and a good guarantee.
Build a niche for yourself and take all of it you can earn.
 
I worked for Michael's briefly about 15 years ago. The manager of the framing department told me a few times that I was taking too much care framing this, that or the other thing. When I told her that I do not take shortcuts, I was told that I could do it the Michael's way or leave. I left. With this is mind, remember that what you do in your framing is no secret. Share it with your clients. Inform them about what goes into your framing. They will appreciate what you do and be less likely to go to a place that takes shortcuts so they can save a few bucks!
 
Have you tried just going to Micheals and snooping it out? I have worked in places that have discount framing and I find that the prices fluctuate right along with the sales and there's a good chance your customers are getting taken for regular mats, regular glass and pressboard framing...

I'd like to add that sometimes a good conversation with a customer regarding particular framing aspects can give them good insight into whether or not they are getting a good deal.

If a customer is coming in and asking me for something I know they can get for cheaper with the same quality and they are worried about price, I will offer them several alternatives, and if none work, I will actually tell them where they can find what they are looking for. Many customers I have done this with have returned to my shop even though I have referred them to a less expensive BB place in the past, because they appreciated my honesty.
 
Lemme tell ya whats happening at OUR local Michaels. Our airbrush instructor asembles part-time for them during the holidays. At OUR Michaels, they don't handle the customers work unless they are wearing gloves (I can't say the same, sad to say) They either use Mylar corners or paper-and-paste hinging. They use only conservation mats and UVF glass. They lace their needlework. They stitch down their shadowbox items with embroidery floss (100% cotton). Tell me again how our quality is better??? On the other hand, our former employee Kim moved to Florida and now works at a Michaels there. They use only paper mats and regular glass. Hmmmm.....
 
Greetings,

Michael's can't compete if your customer is properly educated.

I have recently visited a number of Michael's locations and asked to see samples of their work. I examined their custom cut mats and was very disappointed but not surprised at the poor quality of the cuts. The overcuts were terrible and the double mats were not even properly centered nor cut completely evenly. Now, I admit that the results were not obviously "bad" and that they would probably pass for most of the general public consumers out there. I've checked at a number of other BB stores and found similar problems/defects.

I have pointed out these details to a number of customers and said "if they are this careless with the little things that you can see, what about the details that you cannot see let alone how do they might treat the artwork you entrust to their care." I showed them the work that I do and showed them how to look for these flaws. I told them about some of the steps that I take when preparing the package for framing and about the materials that I use and the care that I take. I asked them to go and do their own research at the BBs and, if they still think it is such a good deal, feel free to take advantage of the lower prices. I've yet to have one not return.

Might not work on everyone but it is the truth and it is pretty compelling in my rather limited experience in this "business".
 
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