Help with brass rubbings please

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The Gilded Lily

The Gilded Lily

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Posts
111
Loc
Monroe, Georgia
I received three traditional brass rubbings from 14th-15th century English churches to frame. Two are workable sizes, 13x37 and 9x26 but one is 25" x 65". They are typical gold crayon rubbings on garden variety black Kraft paper that has been rolled up and stored since the 70's. They have some issues but not insurmountable ones. My initial thoughts were to use Perfect Mount film on a black 1 or 2-ply rag mat to stabilize, then carefully cut it out and mount it on black 4-ply rag mat. Here's where I'm stumped so far: Rising has 60x104 black rag 4-ply but can't find anyone who stocks it and obviously don't want to order a box of 10 for $900+. Black 1 ply or 2-ply has been even more difficult so I may opt to use the film directly on the rubbings. Just a little scarier instead of on the substrate first. I'm not stuck on rag but will not use decorative. Will glaze with UV Acrylite but have concerns that acrylic glass spacers will not give adequate support to acrylic this large (6').

Soooo....Does anyone have any alternative thoughts and/or any supply recommendations?

Regards, Don
 
I can only address the acrylic issue. I would advise that you use 3/16 UV acrylic and it will be stable enough for that size even with setback.
 
Grey Owl said:
You might consider splicing mat boards together. I have never done it, but I have heard others talk about it.

I know, if it were a top mat, you could always put fabric on it so you would never see the splice.
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Thanks. Believe me, that's been considered as Plan B or C.
 
The Gilded Lily said:
I received three traditional brass rubbings from 14th-15th century English churches to frame. Two are workable sizes, 13x37 and 9x26 but one is 25" x 65". They are typical gold crayon rubbings on garden variety black Kraft paper that has been rolled up and stored since the 70's. They have some issues but not insurmountable ones. My initial thoughts were to use Perfect Mount film on a black 1 or 2-ply rag mat to stabilize, then carefully cut it out and mount it on black 4-ply rag mat. Here's where I'm stumped so far: Rising has 60x104 black rag 4-ply but can't find anyone who stocks it and obviously don't want to order a box of 10 for $900+. Black 1 ply or 2-ply has been even more difficult so I may opt to use the film directly on the rubbings. Just a little scarier instead of on the substrate first. I'm not stuck on rag but will not use decorative. Will glaze with UV Acrylite but have concerns that acrylic glass spacers will not give adequate support to acrylic this large (6').

Soooo....Does anyone have any alternative thoughts and/or any supply recommendations?

Regards, Don
Click to expand...

Here's an idea for you:

Your substrate does not have to be one complete piece, you can piece the substrate as it will not show. Use a fabric wrapped mat as you final mount board. This can be 48 x 96 acid free foam board. Hope this helps!
 
Will someone please explain the thought process being discussed re: "conservation" framing these rubbings, especially when it come to inherent vice?

The rubbings were done on Kraft paper. What is the purpose of mounting them to a rag substrate and then cutting them out and re-mounting them?

Doesn't "mounting" defeat any necessity of using rag or "acid free" materials because the piece is being mounted AND CUT??? The OP mentions the use of Perfect Mount. My experience with pressure sensitive mounting materials is that they do not get along well with Kraft paper or newsprint - or any uncoated stock. Mounting the pieces to rag and then re-mounting them sure seems to me to be trouble looking for a place to happen, especially since they were rolled and the wax from the front has had time to contact the back of the piece being mounted. I am willing to bet that there will be bond failure between either the rubbing and the substrate or the substrate and the mounting board.

To the OP - were you then "cutting them out" around the image as close as possible and re-mounting them? If so, doesn't this also defeat/mitigate the necessity of using conservation materials?

Since the piece was rubbed on Kraft, regardless of the framing materials used, won't it continue to degrade due to the lignin and sulphur in the paper itself? The "black" color in the paper is most likely fugitive, even under UV glazing. What are your expectations? What have you led your customer to expect?

When I started framing back in the early 70's, these rubbings were all the rage. Since they were wax based, dry mounting with heat wouldn't work - and since they were usually rolled and very wrinkled, wet mounting was the go to option.

If these were to come into my shop, and the intent is for decorative purposes - let's face it, they will most likely never have "value" that will appreciate significantly after framing - I would wet mount them to a rigid substrate (probably Natural Gator) and then overmat as much of the Kraft as possible using a black or other colored fabric wrapped over a matwoods substrate.
 
Ditto Rob.

Yes! Paste to Gator. They are worth the Kraft they were rubbed on.

Only the memories are precious.
 
You DO know that the paper doesn't need to be perfectly flat, right? My mom did one of these 14 years ago, and we framed it by hinging and backing with AFFC. We used UV non-glare glass, and a double mat. It was hanging in our store for years, and now is hanging in her home here in Florida. We have never had it hanging in direct sunlight, and it still looks great. (Little ripples... sure. But they are expected as the paper was rolled and in her luggage.)

We are not magicians. We can't save every piece of art. Especially if the art is done on acidic paper.
 
All of us here remember framing these back in the day and we all remember dry mounting them with heat. We would use kraft paper on the face to keep the crayon from transferring to the cover sheet and as low as a heat as possible. If the paper was too rippled, the dry mounting would not work. But many times we dry mounted. I don't know if that directly addresses any of your concerns.

I am not sure if perfect mount film would work, my helper Debbie says that Perfect Mount board stuck too aggressively to reposition, especially on the type of paper you describe; what Rob said, in other words.

Do the issues you mention require you to cut them out? Just wondering.

Without ready access to oversized black rag board, I see two options: one is to dry mount to oversize FC and over mat and the other is to hinge it and over mat as well.

Let us know what you do!
edie the krafty goddess
 
Back when these thing were really hot, we framed lots of them. One problem with mounting them though is that as they are rubbed, the paper gets stretched where they rub. It doesn't get stretched around the edges where they don't rub. If you lay a big piece of glass on them (in front of the customer so they can see what you're up against) it will be apparent how wrinkled it will be. The rubbed area is longer than the unstretched paper.

We solved this by cutting out the rubbed area a bit away from the edge. Mounted this to dry mount tissue between 2 old pieces of release paper. Then cut out right around the edges nicely. Now mount this assembly to the center of mat board. We used color mount at 175° F and never had a melt problem.

Frames with glass or acrylic and FrameSpace (of course).
 
Framing Goddess said:
All of us here remember framing these back in the day and we all remember dry mounting them with heat.
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LOL

Edie... you crack me up. The first heat press I ever played with was in 1979.... I don't ever remember putting a crayon
rubbing in heat. But I do remember a lot of Yes paste and wheat starch.... and a 12" brayer
 
Thank you Edie and Sue for your helpful comments. The issues do indeed require cutting out. Thanks for your incite. The paper is quite deteriorated in spots with tears, creases, ripples and fading as well as notes scribbled in the dead areas and LOTS of stray gold crayon rubbing marks. Since I really wasn't intending nor thought it necessary to discuss these issues in the OP, they were omitted to just get to the point. Monetary value has no relevance but the sentimental value is priceless. I have no delusions of "conservation" and have made sure that my client understands this as well. However, we don't want to compound the "issues" by creating new ones down the road. Our intention is not to frame down to the piece but to mount and frame it in an aesthetically pleasing manner. In fact, since the large one will most likely be a focal point in her room, finished corner frames will most certainly be involved in the design. Gator board or cardboard boxes for that matter would certainly work for a substrate but that's really not the look that we're going for.

In order to make this look as well as possible and preserve her memories from some 40 years ago (that's the magic we do, isn't it?), we've decided to get rid of what "issues" we can and mount the cut out piece on a black mat. My idea of PM film on a 1 or 2 ply black mat was to stabilize (not from an acidic point of view) the compromised paper but I'm not necessarily fixed on that. Other ideas are most welcome.

Now with all of the TMI out of the way, there are 3 things that I'm trying to get advice on: 1) stabilizing the paper before cutting it out, 2) mounting the rubbing and 3) materials for the extraordinary size. Thanks for the ideas of splicing the mat and hiding it with fabric covered OS foam board.

Since we came into the framing industry in the 80's, we missed the Golden Age of Brass Rubbings. Thanks Greg for sharing your experience. Your point about the stretched paper is very helpful. Dry mounting crayons with heat would not have crossed my mind but we will definitely test this out. Still pretty scary though!
 
The 3 brass rubbings from the 70's that I queried about a while back finally came to pass and they turned out great! The 2 smaller ones, 15x34 and 22x47, were not terribly difficult but the big guy, 36x77, posed several obstacles.

Thanks again to Greg, Edie, Mik and Russ. Your helpful suggestions were instrumental in our design process and were so appreciated.

We first mounted the crayon rubbings to DM tissue in our press (that was the real scary part!) and then carefully cut them out with an Xacto. Black Kraft paper was then dry mounted to a 68" mat (so it would fit in our press) and then dry mounted the cut out to the Kraft mat. We pieced the top and bottom and hid it under the top mat. The top started with a 48x96 3/16" AFFC that we applied Perfect Mount film to the front and also a strip of adhesive film along the backside of the window and outer edge. We cut the window as well as the outside by hand (too large for our wall cutter), wrapped the FC with black cotton duck fabric and weighted it overnight under a sheet of acrylic. The frame used was Larson's L7, fitted with a gold beaded fillet, strainer braces for support, and glazed with UV acrylic which was cut by hand. The whole project was about as labor intensive as anything we have ever done as every component was handled multiple times and always with 2 people.

These are to be a focal point in the entrance to our client's home and she was overwhelmed. Very rewarding.
 

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They look fantastic! Thanks for sharing.
 
You said that they were going to be the focal point in the customer's entrance? I hope that it doesn't get any direct sunlight. The black paper they do the rubbings on will fade.

(They look great!)
 
Susan May said:
You said that they were going to be the focal point in the customer's entrance? I hope that it doesn't get any direct sunlight. The black paper they do the rubbings on will fade.

(They look great!)
Click to expand...

Thanks Susan. Light is not a problem. Just seen from the foyer as you enter the home.
 
Coming to this very late, but one thing that I have often gone to when dealing with "super sized" pieces is to forget using mat and go to liners instead. They typically end up costing less than matboard and a whole lot less headache to deal with.

Don, what you did looks great and by having a strong contrast between the black/gray kraft and the black matting it won't matter if the kraft does fade a bit.
 
There are many good ideas and comments and it sounds like this project has been resolved. I would remind everyone that once paper fibers are broken even wet mounting will not heal them and they will always be visible to some degree. Traditional dry mounting at 180F temperatures are a little hot but these are high melt waxes used fro rubbings not crayons so careful mounting has worked in the past. Pressure-sensitive adhesives are likely to fail over time unless they were high tack applied with cold vacuum or roller. So the following information is simply an FYI.

Fortunately we are a state-of-the-art industry and there is a new permanent heat activated product now available up to 48x96" that is a truly low temperature 130F/short dwell time 30 second (mechanical) to 2 minutes (vacuum) foam board called MountCor by Gilman Brothers. They currently only have it available in white but will be releasing it black and acid free versions.

I have tested this product extensively and its extremely low temperature makes it safe for all digitals--even thermographics--and yes, I have even test mounted brass rubbings. There is no wax transfer and since each sheet comes with it's own release liner there is no worry about contamination.
Chris A Paschke
 
Thankfully I have not seen a brass rubbing in many years but I do recall when I first started framing (for Kramer the Framer) in the late sixties a job came in with several of them. He told me to dry mount them. What did I know? I dry mounted them with that horrid crinkly yellow tissue - very high temperature, as I recall. One was nearly ruined but even back then I managed to salvage it by careful scraping (as I recall).

The thermostat on the Frog went wonky (got up to 350 degrees as I recall)it melted the embossed lettering on a diploma and stuck the thing to the kraft paper we used as a barrier (long before the invention of silicone release paper). I managed to get most of the kraft paper off the surface of the diploma and had to to gingerly scrape the little fibers away from the lettering, which had become quite flat.

We sure have come a long way since those awful days!
 
I just got 2 brass rubbings in, the first in a long time. They had a third one that measures some 100"!! Besides the cost factor, I asked them if they had a wall tall enough and they don't. I am glad as business is really good and after 26 years in the same location, we're moving the shop. See my post elsewhere.
 
Took in five wax rubbings today. Haven't framed any in many years.
 
I have not seen brass rubbings in years as well. I think many old churches stopped allowing tourists to make them - although sometimes they make their own and sell them already matted or even framed.
 
Framar said:
I have not seen brass rubbings in years as well. I think many old churches stopped allowing tourists to make them - although sometimes they make their own and sell them already matted or even framed.
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I believe this is true. the last time I framed one it was from an English church tomb and the customer mentioned that it was taken just before the church stopped allowing visitors to take rubbings. It seems the reason was that the constant rubbing was wearing down the metal and detail was being lost. I also believe some of the tourist sites like Angkor Wat and the South American Inca temples have now banned stone rubbings for the same reason

Mine was short enough to hinge mount onto an oversized sheet of matt card and I used a 5mm spacer to give it clearance from the glass. it was most definitely cockled due to rolling and stretching in places but the customer was happy to accept this as the nature of the thing. All I did was rest it under weight for a couple of days to stop it trying to re-roll itself. I did not even consider trying to mount it as I was certain the cockles would have become irremovable creases had I tried. As others have mentioned I am sure Perfect Mount or any other sticky board would be an irrecoverable disaster due to the creasing and the fragile paper would never stand up to being delaminated afterwards.
 
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