HELP! with a funky screw

Sherry Lee

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Jun 25, 2002
Posts
2,228
Loc
Phoenix, Az.
I'm trying to get hardware off the back of a framed piece. I've never seen a screw like this.....it is square-like. I tried an allen wrench but it doesn't work because inside the middle the sides are sloped, keeping the allen wrench from going down deep. This screw has been used for the one-hole D-rings, but instead of a D, it's a clear triangle.

Anyone familiar with this type of screw? What can I use to unscrew it?
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Sounds like a square drive. They are very popular in Canada and by some manufactures. The drive sizes are numbered S-1 - S-2 - S-3 just like a flat blade screw driver. The drives can be found in assortments of drives in hardware stores. The drives will fit normal drive 1/4" handles.
 
I'm sure our Canadian grumblers will weigh in soon as robertson or square drive screws are one of Canada's notable contributions to the hardware world. You should be able to find square drive screwdrivers or bits at any hardware store. They commonly come in three sizes and I'd guess you need the middle size.

Peter Bowe
Saline Picture Frame Co.
 
I ran into some of those just last week.

Smugly, I retrieved my tool box from the van - the one with 180 different sizes and kinds of screw driver bits, most of which I will never use unless I have to replace a headlight on a '97 Pontiac 6000. (Then I'll need all of them.)

None of them worked. I should've bought the 200-bit set.
 
So the Canadians use these just to annoy the rest of us?

Good thing I didn't know that last week.
 
Yep......this is from Canada and I'm REAL happy right now!

Dr. Phil would ask, "How's it worken' for ya?"

"Well Dr. Phil, it's like this.....I'm gonna go get me some dynamite and then all will be well!"
 
Are you planning on reusing the offending screw? If not then take some advice from another Canadian, Red Green. Dust tape and vise grips.

Wrap the head of that screw real good with duct tape then clamp on the vise grips and twist like ****! Good way to get rid of your frustration and the **** screw!
 
I like that idea Bob!

I'm certain that somewhere in my husband's wonderful 62-drawer tool chest, lies the perfect tool. Kinda like Ron's tool box from his van. I'm just wanting to finish this and move on......

OK.....which drawer is the duct tape in????
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I'll find that ok.....it's a staple!
 
OK.....which drawer is the duct tape in????
It should be right out there on the fitting table - next to the hot-glue gun. Check under that sheet of corrigated.

Geez, Sherry, you need to get organized.
 
Square Drive Screws; not just for Canadians anymore. :D Stay tuned for a religious pitch. :D

I have been using square drive screws for many years now and think that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I have built many things using them and especially like several things about them.

1. When you place a square drive screw on the end of you bit, it stays there. You don't need to hold the screw when you are starting it out using your driver. This is great when you are building something and driving many screws with your drill.

2. They come out easier and strip less than phillips or slotted screws. I have built knockdown shelves that I can move easily. I use them where I used to use nails.

3. You can apply far more torque to a square drive screw than you could ever image trying with the others. This again lends itself to using where you used to use nails. Try driving a 3" #10 philips head screw through two 2x4s without a pilot hole. More likely than not, you will strip the phillips head from over torquing it before it is fully driven.

I would love to use them for framing instead of phillips head's and think that ones like this ones in this link (click here) would be better than the standard #6x1/2" (or other sizes) phillips that are used now. You don't have to hold the screw when starting it, just put in on the bit and drive.

For those of your that would like to be converted, visit http://www.mcfeelys.com for a zillion varieties of square drive screws and paraphernalia.
 
Right RON! EVERY man has his duct tape in IMMEDIATE reach!


Organized? What's organized?? Fall season started early here......I'm already in need of a dose of organization. Just give me 3 more days! Maybe then........ :rolleyes:

LARRY: You keep preachen' to the choir.....let's hear the feedback. I have no experience with them until today. So far all they've done is cut into my organization time! ;)
 
The most widely used screw in the world. Invented by Mr. Robertson in Canada over 100 years ago. Comes in 4 sizes #0(yellow), #1(Green),#2(Red), and #3(Black) - yes he even color coded them all those years ago. Americans got stuck with that terrible cross or Phillips screw because when Mr Robertson refused to sell his company to Henry Ford, Mr Ford refused to use his screws and so the USA got screwed out of the easiest to use screw. Get used to them - many american woodworkers have changed to them - they're simply better - just put it on the end of your screwdriver and it'll stay there. We wouldn't use anything else in our shop. China has recently taken them on - making them by the zillions. Go here: http://www.mcfeelys.com/
 
Spoken like a true Canadian.

I'm building a fence, so I drove at least 1,000 screws yesterday (my day off.)

They are 1-3/4" deck screws with a 6-lobe head. They are everything Larry and John said about the square drive screws, but 1-1/2 times better.

I don't plan to switch over in the shop just yet.
 
I love Robertson screws! They are everything everyone has said about them and more! I use them in exterior US applications for added security! At a Toronto trade show many years ago, we toured the Art Gallery of Ontario and The Royal Ontario Musuem and and whichever one of those fine places had the King Tut exhibit mentioned to us that they used Robertsons when crating pieces for international shipping because casual thieves whould be less likely able to open the crates!

A great book for tool buffs is "One Good Turn" (A Natural History of the Screwdriver and the Screw) by Witold Rybczynski and published by Scribner. Terrific read!
 
Originally posted by John Gornall:
...Invented by Mr. Robertson in Canada over 100 years ago.........Get used to them - many american woodworkers have changed to them - they're simply better - just put it on the end of your screwdriver and it'll stay there....
As John Gornall identified, and Larry Peterson praised, they are indeed wonderful. Whey I needed to mount slat wall in our shop a couple of years ago, I ordered a couple boxes of #2 Robertson screws from my local Ace Hardware dealer......worked great.

About the only major industry where you will actually see them on a regular basis here in the U.S., is the Window Treatments business. Take a good look at the hanging hardware on your wall, and typically you'll find that those Phillips head screws have a Robertson square slot right in the middle!

John
 
Larry,

Have you tried one of the "impact" drivers? You can easily drive a 3" screw into 2x4s without a pilot hole and without damaging the Philips head.

Pat :D
 
I'm with Larry on this one, square drive screws are great. The only reason we do not use them exclusively is the reason this thread was started, most folks don't know how to get em out.

What if our customers wanted to move the wire up or down? What if they just like to take things apart?

I have found the more expensive stainless steel ones to be the best. You can get so much torque with square drive, regular steel screws will break on you. I use them mostly at home, but we do have a few of em here at the shop though.

John
 
Have you tried one of the "impact" drivers? You can easily drive a 3" screw into 2x4s without a pilot hole and without damaging the Philips head.
To be honest, i haven't. Before I found square drive screws, I wouldn't try to use a 3" Phillips head.

Someone mentioned the combo square drive/Phillips head screws. If I could find them in a 6 x 1/2" round head, I would use them on my frames. I can find the flat head, but not the round. The flat heads have a tapered shank so they don't work well with hangers. I have found 8 x 1/2 round head combos and may give them a try soon.

And for another link on why square drives screws are great Click Here
 
Once again, an interesting discussion! Don't we just LOVE this!?

Ironic that I had a customer from Canada come in today (an Arizona Snowbird). I just had to show him this screw and he went on and on about Mr. Robertson and Mr. Ford and how fabulous these screws are! He is a die hard!

I managed to get the screws out using the right tool! Thanks everyone!
 
Take your Philips or Flathead, put it on the end of a regular screwdriver, extend arm out as far as it goes, then start turning the screw into your favorite surface.....Wait, stop, bend over pick up that screw off the ground (if you can find it....bounced!) and try again.....hmmm better get closer, put a pilot hole in and maybe use something to stablize it until it is well started. Now be careful not to strip the head!


OK after that frustration try a Robertson...Oh and I am Canadian...Whenever I get anything to assemble that comes with anything other than Robertson I throw them out, mutter something or other under my breath ;) and then go to my drawer full of Robertson screws and do it properly!
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Strangely enough, mobile homes in the US use square head screws almost exclusively. Interesting...Mine's full of 'em. Everywhere they needed a screw, there's a square head.

Pat, using a Dewalt 18 volt cordless drill, I must have used well over 600 3" screws on my deck this summer. They were galvanized, hardened steel, so I bought #2 Phillips driver bits by the bag full!
 
Charles,

Once you try an impact driver, you'll never want to go use a drill based driver again. Mine is a 12 volt Makita - has no trouble with 3" screws.

Pat :D
 
Hi All

I'm a long time woodworker, and a picture framer. Robertson screws are, indeed, the industry standard here in Canada. Any of those she-she kits that come with slot screws inevitably end up in the trash within seconds (the screws that is, not the whole kit). How can anyone tolerate them and why would anyone manufacture them? Philips is an improvement, but Robertson is far better. Beware of the imitation 'square-head' screws, which don't taper and don't have the same torque power as Robertsons. Get yourself a set of Robertson drivers and a gross of screws and use them exclusively (nobody'll be taking your work apart and they'll be back if they want changes). I chuck up my cordless drill with a Robertson bit and add a D-ring within seconds. I've driven 3" #12's like butter while installing replacement windows. Try them, you'll like them ;)

Just to confuse the matter, I'll add another screw into the mix. It's called the Spax. They are the most superior screw I've found, and the most expensive. They can drive into hardwood without predrilling (I've done it many times). The threads are scalloped so they cut their way in. The head is superior (both Philips and Robertson) with a shaft that's deeper than any other screw so your driver won't let loose. They are coated so there's less friction, and the neck is reinforced so there is no shearing off of the head. To check them out, go to https://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=47173&category=,32&ccurrency=2&SID= and click on Spax Screws. If you're a woodworker or a gardener, check out the whole Lee Valley website.

Anna in Canada
 
Originally posted by Larry Peterson:
Square Drive Screws; not just for Canadians anymore. :D Stay tuned for a religious pitch. :D

I have been using square drive screws for many years now and think that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I have built many things using them and especially like several things about them.

oh my god you are my enemy. I hate those things! what is wrong with phillips!@#!
 
Originally posted by xenniferx:
oh my god you are my enemy. I hate those things! what is wrong with phillips!@#!
Umm. They strip really easy. They don't grip the screwdriver head like the squares do. (although a little black electric tape on the blade works great)

I hate "falling off" the screw head and punching a hole in the backing paper when using philips screws.
 
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