Help Shadow boxing a guitar

[recoil]

I’m going to be working on a shadow box project and I need to mount an electric guitar,
I’m going to use a boxer frame that I’m going to hinge so it can be opened; the guitar needs to be removable
So my question is what would be a good way to mount the electric guitar so it can be taken out and put back
Into the frame.
Thank you!
Recoil

 

[Jay H]

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Guitar/Accessories?sku=450240

I use that.


Welcome to the G.

 

[CAframer]

There are several related threads if you run a search ... for instance take a look at this one

 

[Jay H]

Also remember that if you have a swinging door, the thing basiclly need to bolt to the wall. Supports at the top won't hold it when the door is open.

 

[trofeo]

That's a good one!
I framed a long tapestry once, that went horozontally. The client wanted to be able to touch it, (bad, I know..), so it need to have a hinged door on it. Because of the weight of the door, I used a long piano hinge at the top edge of the "cabinet". The piano hinge was crucial, and I called several places to find out what weight capacity it had and it was strong enough for the glass and frame. If the piece is going to go vertically, you might consider including a hidden support "arm" type thingy attached to the bottom edge of the frame that can swing out and help support the edge of the door ?
And, for how to keep the guitar in place, maybe you could build a little pedestal to lift the piece to the proper height, which the guitar would sit on. At the top edge of the body of the guitar, you could use padded "L" shaped brackets that would hold the front on the guitar in place, and that could rotate out of the way for removal of the item?
I'm not sure that makes any sense.. but I wish you god luck!!

 

[Framerguy]

I built this case a while back for a guy who wanted to store his guitar on his family room wall! He played it daily and wanted to take it out easily. I also had to mount the guitar so it looked centered at the height he wanted to hang it on the wall. Looking straight on it didn't look good to me but he liked it when he hung it in the family room so I guess all was OK.

If I remember correctly it was hinged at the top with a piano hinge and I put a prop inside to hold the door up in the open position. To keep it solid on the wall I designed a deep wood Z-bar and he had no problems with it moving when he lifted the guitar out. I used a series of brass rods bent and positioned around the guitar and a loop to hold the strap and another set of short L shaped rods to hold the tremelo and jack lead and covered them with Plasti-dip that is sold in hardware stores for dipping tools into for forming rubber-like grips on them.

The box was built out of plain ol' 1x4 furring strips and painted flat black to match the door moulding. I lined it with tan suede mat and attached all the brass brackets to coroplast using hot melt glue and a technique that Jim Miller teaches in one of his classes.

Framerguy

 

[Jay H]

No synthetic rubber is safe for guitar finishes. Many guitar companies use nitrocellulose lacquer. That type of lacquer is quite unstable. Things like leather straps, bug spray, and synthetic rubber will damage the finish. I’ve seen bug spray eat the finish off a Martin guitar in one session!

Plasti-Dip is a synthetic rubber. Do not use it on guitars. Guitar stands even have a warning about using the stand on guitars with nitrocellulose lacquer, which makes me wonder why they don’t just use something else.

Anyway, don’t use it. There was once a discussion on here about using shrink tube. I don’t think that’s a good idea either because they come in all types of grades made from all kinds of materials. With those you just can’t be 100% certain the rubber won’t melt the finish, which is what happens when the rubber rests on the lacquer for an extended period.

My link above is safe if you’re hanging the guitar up right.

If your hanging it sideways, which I don’t recommend, then use straps attached at the top of the box that will go around the strap buttons. I’ve actually seen a company that sells removable guitar boxes and hang them this way.

 

[Omar]

[ 04-27-2006, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Omar ]

 

[Framerguy]

That is very true with nitrocellulose lacquer finishes and should be checked into before using any products in your framing that may be of a doubtful nature. And the same advice applies if you have a different idea of what is correct and what is not.

When you get so many projects into your shop to frame over the years that require some element of design, no matter how weird the owner wants it done, you still should check whether the materials you plan to use will have negative long term effects on the customer's items.

And that is what separates a new framer from one who has some experience in doing the job professionally. I did just that before framing this project. The Fender solid body was a new guitar and, after checking on their website for up to date information on the finishes used on their guitars, I also passed along what I found to the customer and suggested that he call their customer care department to verify our plans if he had any further concerns. He didn't want his guitar damaged and neither did I wish to damage it with some impulsive scheme to mount it for him. That is simply part of how a professional framer goes about deciding what to do.

Before you decide to become the guitar guru on this forum, I suggest that you check your information and ensure that your all inclusive statements don't have any exceptions to them. I didn't use bug spray on this item nor did I try to force the customer to hang his property in any fashion or orientation other than what he came into my shop and paid me to do for him. I DID ascertain that this model of guitar had a polyurethane finish and would be fine with whatever non-caustic materials I chose to place next it's surface. I really don't care what you suggest for the direction to hang a guitar. You didn't pay for the job and I didn't ask for any "professional" suggestions after the fact.

There seems to be alot of blanket statements made by some "experts" on this forum lately about how to do certain kinds of framing. May I suggest that you check out your sources and your methods first to make sure that you aren't passing on information that doesn't also contain erroneous information? There are alot of new framers on this forum who DON'T consider themselves "expert" and read to learn from those of us who HAVE done these procedures long enough to know what is working and what is not.

You seem to be a smart young man, Jay, but you have a very cocky arrogance with those who have been here on this forum long enough to be fairly savvy in the information they pass on and that isn't sitting well with me lately. There is a subtle difference saying in effect, "no that is wrong, this is how you do it" and saying " and in addition to what was said let me add .......". None of us are flawless and we all make mistakes sometimes. I have apologized more times than I can remember for a post that didn't make sense or wasn't accurate but I don't care for you taking issue with my suggestions without first checking out your statements to make sure that I AM in fact wrong in what I tell others and you are totally correct in what you have to offer.

That doesn't seem to be too much to ask.

Framerguy

 

[Jay H]

I have assaulted your sensibilities and while I can’t seem to understand how, I apologize.

You have a personal problem with me and that’s apparent. I have already been warned about you both in jest on the G and in seriousness in private. None of that is a concern of mine as I intend to keep things between us entirely professional.

I have many personal relationships with Grumblers and I cherish exchanges with those people. To tell you the truth I wish for more which is why I sent you an email entitled “The hatchet is yours”. I had hoped we could iron out our differences privately and possibly make a new personal friend.

You haven’t responded to that email and your inbox here is full. I don’t know what else to do and so if the “old you” is back and I’m your target, I guess I’m okay with that. I wished it wasn’t so but it seems I am.

So now that everything is professional between us let me clarify my concern with using rubber on a guitar.

I built my first guitar when I was about 20. I have been building them and a skilled luthier sense. I have applied nitrocelluose, hand rubbed oil, polyurethane and polyester finishes. I was recently hired to be a guitar tech for the artist that recently broke the World Record for solo performance (30 hours). I am credited in the program from Guinness. I will compare resumes on this topic with anybody.

As far as the finishes go, they are all quite delicate. I have been told that modern catalyzed polymer finishes are immune to the vinyl damage. I have seen hazing to prove otherwise. I’m not sure if it was the actual lacquer that melted or the vinyl itself but the damage is real.

It seems that you were very thorough in your research but did you ask specifically if it was recommended that, even with the poly finish, it was safe to let the guitar rest on rubber? They would have undoubtedly said “NO!”

These days it's mainly the expensive instruments that use nitrocellulose. Gibson, Martin, FENDER, and most individual luthiers and small factories use it.

If your customer later gets any super expensive relic series or vintage series guitars from Fender, guess where he will put it? I would frame under the assumption that it would go in that case. If so here is what he will be faced with in about 6 months.

I’ll agree that now I’m dealing in hypotheticals and that’s a slippery slope that could lead to all kinds of ridiculousness. However guitarists are constantly getting nicer equipment and like I said that increases the odds of ending up with a nitro finished instrument. This isn’t all that far fetched.

“That’s not my problem” you might say. To that I sorta agree. However if the problem can be reasonably avoided then is there a reason why it shouldn’t? Jim Miller protests that the wrong way is often times harder than the right way so why not just do it right? Well if you would have instead covered the posts in cotton then voile, this becomes a complete non-issue.

SO IN ADDITION TO WHAT YOU SAID, I would suggest that rubber designed to make hand tools feel good, isn’t the best substance to put against any guitar finish. There is also the added risk that they may get a different guitar and being that this is a removable case extra consideration should be taken.

Again I’m sorry for any offenses. I hope that you find my “disagreements” with you post professional. I hope we can either get along with out these silly-heated-pointed posts, or cordially ignore each other. I’m fine with either but this is not a reasonable way to act. That doesn’t seem to much to ask.

 

[BUDDY]

Since I am duely impressed with anyone who has tackled a framing job of this size and scope. Especially since I have never attempted to frame anything like this in my 17 odd years of framing, and I have to admitt I wouldn't know where to start,I definetly wouldn't have thought to consult with the manufacturer.
That being said I'd like to ask a few question. Tom how long has this job been hanging on your clients wall? Also has the guitar moved in anyway in all that time or has there been any other compalints? And did your client make any suggestions about what they wanted to see or did they just trust your good judgement and design?

Also Jay How many Guitars or other such items have you framed,and what mounting methods did you use and why? Did this websight make any FRAMING suggestions? And if the Guitar manufacturers don't suggest useing Plasti-dip on stands why do they sell them with it on them?

As I said I wouldn't know where to start since I haven't framed even one Guitar and probaly will never again ,so I'll wait for you more experienced framers to answer.
BUDDY

 

[Jay H]

Originally posted by BUDDY:
Also Jay How many Guitars or other such items have you framed,and what mounting methods did you use and why?

I have framed 3, one of which hangs in my gallery. I call it “Blue” and it was the very first one I built. I will confess that I have seen many better framed pieces than mine. My area of expertise isn’t exactly in the “framing of guitars”. However I mounted them by removing two of the neck screws and replaced them through the backing with ¼” longer screws. I would HIGHLY recommend this if the guitar doesn’t have to be removed.

Originally posted by BUDDY:
Did this websight make any FRAMING suggestions?

I don’t recall much about the website I mentioned except the method they used to hang the guitar.

Originally posted by BUDDY:
And if the Guitar manufacturers don't suggest useing Plasti-dip on stands why do they sell them with it on them?

Guitar manufactures don’t sell them with it. I found one that Fender sells. It says this, “...features such as velveteen rubber (nitrocelluloise finish friendly)…” Martin and Gibson didn't sell any that I could find.

There are guitar stands with that type of product on it though. As to why, I would equate that with asking why Crescent still makes paper matboards. It serves a purpose, I guess, but has a very limited use.

 

[CharlesL]

I bought my first guitar in 1974, the year I started playing. Was bored with keyboards, which I had been playing since I was 9, in 1959. It was a spanking new Gibson SG with dark natural finish. It looked just like this one:

Except it had all chrome hardware as well as chrome p/u covers. I polished it, at first, then just put a little baby powder on my hand so it'd slide up and down the neck easier. I don't know if it had a nitrocellulose finish, spar varnish or nitroglycerin. I do know it took a lot of abuse over the years.

Someone actually stole the case once when we were playing, so it travelled in a 'gig bag' and spent hundreds of hours on one of the aforementioned guitar stands that had what appeared to be surgical tubing(presumably rubber) to protect the neck. It never suffered any damage from the stand, but it had a lot of hand wear(still does) on the neck.

Guitars, particularly solid body electrics are unbelievably bullet-proof. Mine has had wine, beer, liquor, Coke and every other kind of liquid spilled on it. A good cleaning has worked well for me. It still plays very well!

I'm not offering an opinion on what will do what to which or anything relating to framing a guitar. I DO know that mine sat in one of those stands at a house I lived in until the rubber actually disintergrated. It left a tiny little mark on the neck that was quickly removed with Pledge.

I never tried applying bug spray to it, though, although I can't imagine why anybody would. In the 33 years I've had it, it's never once complained about mosquitos.

I bow to Jay's knowledge of guitars and their finishes, but I also bow to FGII's years of experience framing stuff. I don't frame 'em or build 'em. I just play 'em. A friend and I recently re-fretted the SG, adjusted the action and intonation and it plays slicker than the '75 Les Paul I have. Guitars are durable things!

 

[Jay H]

The bug spray was sprayed on the arms. The chemical infested arm then layed aginst the finish. The finish turned to goo in minutes.

I only use that example to show how something that seems very harmless can be quite destructive.

My picture above was damaged from a stand. I didn't sit there near as long as yours.

Carry on.

 

[Jay H]

Buddy, here is what a guitar strap did to a Martin. You don't even want to know what this thing was worth. I think the maker of this strap should be hung by it.

 

[Framerguy]

Buddy,

I am about to drop this subject as I can't seem to get my point across about doing what the customer felt comfortable with and not chasing theoreticals all around the planet about what could conceiveably happen to this man's instrument. I didn't, for example, take any precautions at all against meteor showers or nearby forest fires that could impact the condition of the guitar. Nor did I put museum glass in the shadowbox to help inhibit UV rays from hitting the guitar and possibly destroying the finish which probably would be much more of a possibility than the small supports I built doing damage. I followed what seemed reasonable at the time and what my customer was paying me to do. He OK'ed the job, he accepted the recommendations of the Fender company representatives, and he paid me for the framing. 'Nuff said 'bout that one.

I think I framed that guitar about 7 years ago. As I stated in my original post, which by the way was intended to give one of our new framers another idea in addition to what Jay posted, the owner planned on playing his guitar daily. Yes, I imagine that he had the guitar out of the shadowbox a time or two in the past 7 years.

As I have said in so many posts in the past I am a strong believer in the information contained in MSDS sheets and I also place alot of confidence in what I am told by the manufacturers of, say guitars for example, when I call them to check on the compatibility of what I want to use on what they built. Who else would know what type of finish is on that guitar and what would be the best to use for the design that I wanted to use to support it. But I guess that wasn't the case, eh? If you go to the Fender website you can view their FAQ's and see that only the "vintage instruments were finished in nitrocellulose lacquer". The newer models are finished in a variety of much more durable finishes that are for the most part impervious to most mild compounds like the one I wanted to use on these hangers. This is what I was told. I can't come up with one reason for them to lie to me.

I am disappointed that my post to offer help to another new framer was taken and distorted to the point where it may not be any help at all. I hope that "recoil" will take what he finds useful and disregard the rest and let life proceed. As some of us have discussed previously, it seems like you can't mention much of anything on this forum anymore that somebody doesn't step up and take issue with it no matter if they are right or wrong or somewhere in between. I never questioned Jay's suggestion that he offered even though I had some doubts that it be useful in anything but a vertical framing which is rare for shadowboxing a guitar and I am disappointed that he had to take issue with mine without knowing anything further about the pains I and my customer went to in making him feel at ease with the work that I did.

FGII

 

[Jay H]

http://www.fender.com/support/warranty/pdfs/FENDERLIMITED64CE6.pdf

Under “Limitations and Exclusions”:

“The following Items are NOT covered by this warranty.
3. Damages to finishes or cracks, splitting, or warpage, of wood due to changes in temperature or humidity or exposure or contact with sun, fire, moisture, body salts, and acids of perspiration, guitar straps, stands/hangers made from vinyl, plastic, rubber, or other synthetic material…”

It looks like they frown on "contact with sun". Who would have thought that wasn an issue?

 

[BUDDY]

Well I have learned a lot from both of you .I have learned from Tom how we can inquirw about factory specs even when we aren't in that industry,and how we can construct a framing package that will suit the cistomers cesires while being reasonaly sure that we have done all we should to be professional ,and that sometimes the ULTIMAT treatment isn't always needed ( as I think we have discussed here and on HH before).

I have learned that jay has a host of Guitar building experience and knowledge and would prefer to frame things on the more conservatin side than take the chance that the customer may not have said what they will ultimate use the frame for. All this can be helpful to a guy like mayself who has never ( despite 17 years ) framed a Guitar or anything like it.

I have learned something else though that someone has Given jay some very poor judgement about what Tom and other old timer gumblers are all about."I have already been warned about you both in jest on the G and in seriousness in private. " I for one and I feel very confident there are many others do not hold with that advise and I would advise Jay to be very cautious of those who have said this.IMHO i would do some more reserach into the motives of those who have given you this advise as aserious concern. Tom and a lot of us ( Jay included my tease others online) but that is meant in afriendly way. It is only when we allow the opinions of others to taint what we see ourslves that we fail to see the true person, and how helpful they are trying to be.

Tom is one of the nicest Grumblers on TFG and also one of the most considerate and helpful to all newcomers and seasoned vets. Only a person with a personal vendetta would think otherwise.

There are some on TFG that would have all think that there way is the only way and only they agree with are good people Tom is not one of those and I ceratinly hope Jay and no one else follows that example.

We can learn alot from the vets and the newbies but only when we don't allow false impression influence our opinions before anyone else opens their mouths.

I will decend my soap box and hope that we can continue to be FRIENDS as well as business associates .there are other forums where purely business type things are discussed and even some of us who are so inclined rather TFG .
Now TOM ,I too will let this drop. Until I see the need to repeat it which i hope never occurs.
BUDDY

 

[BUDDY]

Jay Not to beat a dead horse ,But That disclaimer seems to me to frown on almost every thing that can normally come in contact with a guitar, even a musician's sweaty hands.LOL

Do you think that might just be one of those CYA documents? You know ,"if any thing goes wrong I warnned you" sort of thing?

By the way just what the heck was that "GUITAR STRAP" made of? Wasn't it made to support a "GUITAR" with those nice finishes?

Maybe checking with some Guitar related manufaturers might not be a good idea after all?
BUDDY

 

[Jay H]

Originally posted by BUDDY:
Jay Not to beat a dead horse...

I thought we had covered just about everything and was going to let it drop? You do ask legitimate questions though.

Originally posted by BUDDY:
Do you think that might just be one of those CYA documents?

I don't think so because all of those things are KNOWN to cause problems. I don't think they should have to cover a damaged guitar when the causes were known and warned against.

Originally posted by BUDDY:
By the way just what the heck was that "GUITAR STRAP" made of?

The strap didn't damage the guitar. However it had a soft cushy foamy area covered with a vinyl material where it rests on your shoulders. It was the vinyl that ate the finish.

Originally posted by BUDDY:
Wasn't it made to support a "GUITAR" with those nice finishes?

I think it was designed to support a "guitar" for $14.99.

Originally posted by BUDDY:
Maybe checking with some Guitar related manufaturers might not be a good idea after all?
BUDDY

Yep you said it, "guitar related manufacturers". Again, just because Crescent makes paper mats doesn't mean they should be used on all art. The manufacture of Martin told him to never let anything synthetic touch the guitar. They told him to not even wipe it down with anything synthetic. They are neutral on what you do with the boards. However art publishers will be quick to tell you what to do and not to do with the art.

Another forum I'm active in is www.mimf.com . There you will find some very old school techs and even manufacturors. That is a great source for answers too. Of coarse their scope is quite narrow like this board.

 

[boxer1]

In reality the most treasured guitars I've seen have been the most beat up. Stevie Ray's Number One for example. If you are playing it on a regular basis then it certainly isn't a museum piece. Ask the customer what his expectation is and base your mounting method on that... from all we know in this forum it could be a $125.00 twanger from "Target".

 

[Jay H]

I think that one has a nitro finish on it. The copys from Fender that is. I know for fact the origional has nitro.

I saw that copy go on Ebay for I think it was $50,000. They only made 100 of them and they look dead up like the origional. What little bit of the finish that remains on it is still very fragile.

Its hard to believe that is a brand new gutiar.

I would give my eye teeth but not 50k.

Its interesting to note how Fender mounted it.

 

[Jay H]

I found this picture of the origional one. Whats amazing to me is how they even made the scratches match. The "custom" sticker is even peeled up in one corner on both gutiars.

 

[jframe]

Hang in there, Jay, some of these old f**** just want to test you to see what you are made of.

What exactly is a "nitro" finish?

I can't see why anyone would pay 50K for a fake SRV guitar taht he never even touched it or endorsed. It seems more like forgery to me. But then we have TK in this industry.

 

[Jay H]

I would be totally bs'n if I said much about nitrocelluous lacquer. I know much more about its properties than how its actually made.

Its just a lacquer that is made from cotton.

We use it for guitars becuase its easy to apply. Each coat of lacquer dissolves some of the previous coat so it coats evenly. It cures slower than acrylic lacquers but in about 5 days you can polish it and it polishes easily to a deep shine.

It is also cures more realibly under high humid conditions unlike acrylic that can be hazy if the humidity is high.

The downside besides curing time is that its pretty dangerous stuff.