HELP........Preservation Package 75 x 70 inches approx

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Dermot

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I need some guidance and suggestions….

A conservationist has asked me to quote for framing an old repaired map which is 68.5” (H) x 62.5” (W) frame size will be about 75” x 70” approx.

I have restrictions on the material I can get in Ireland….please bear this in mind…..

I can get a suitable moulding of some sort and I will extend the depth of the rebate by adding extra depth to the back with some sort of wood moulding….I’m comfortable with this….

I can get 4mm standard acrylic non UV cut to the size of the frame…I happy about this…I cannot get UV glass or UV acrylic in the size required….so I will have to work with standard Acrylic…

I just found a supplier for Coroplast® in 4mm 8 x 4 ft sheets I can splice two of these together for the backing/filler….or I can get FomeX in 6mm…not to happy about buying 6 mm FomeX as I will have a limited use for it…

I can only get Mount/Mat board (white core Lignin free) in 60 x 40 inch… or Museum in 42 x 32 inches….so I will need to do some splicing….

The Map will be hinged mounted and the Conservator (I know this girl well so no problems with her) will do that in my workshop….

Please bear in mind that the supply of materials in Ireland for this sort of work is very limited…..there is nobody who offers a full commercial Preservation Picture Framing service in Ireland (I’m referring to FACTS standard here)there is no framing at TCD’s (Trinity College Dublin) conservation department…. ….the National Art Gallery in Dublin has a very small in house framing facilities other than that Preservation Picture Framing is not available in Ireland….it looks like I will be the first to provide this service….

Can you guys please offer suggestions etc. in how I will carry out this job……all input will be absorbed and gratefully received, I'm reasonable knowledgeable with FACTS and some of the articles Hugh Phibbs has written for PFM…..and it goes without saying that I have tried to absorb as much as possible which has been written about this subject on the Grumble……I have a lot of theory but virtually no hands on experience…of this level of framing….

Thanks

[ 06-22-2004, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Dermot ]
 
Dermot, It sounds to me that you've got the situation well in hand. A couple of suggestions:
Laminate two layers of the 4mm coroplast together with the flutes in one sheet running 90 degrees from the other. The splice will be stronger and the support board created this way will be very rigid.
If you are concerned with the aesthetics of splicing the 4-ply rag mount board, you might look at covering the spliced mount with washed, unbleached cotton muslin, (or are you using the Irish/English word "mount" that translates into American/English "mat"?). In any event, hand wrapping the mount or mat will give a seamless look to that element.
The oversized UV acrylic is an issue regardless of location. That you can get it in standard is very good.
The only other thing I can think of is to be sure you seal the rebate of the moulding.
 
Thanks Wally...yes Mat=Mount amd over here I would say Mount (top)...... Back Mountboard = Mat/Mountboard (backing Mount/Mat)

How do I attach the Muslin!!!...it sounds super...

And the other thing is spacers...I will have to make these...any suggestions !!!.....I know about the FrameTek product but they are not an option at present....

Thanks again...... I see this Preservation framing as a big challenge….but an even bigger opportunity…….I’m a real niche guy and to be the niche in the market place is appealing….
 
In addition to Wally's excellent suggestions, you
might want to know the condition of the map, befor
you complete your quote and be sure that you have
a space available that allows for such large work
to be done safely. The acrylic should be around
6 mm thick, so that it will be reasonably rigid.
Since you will be splicing the mount board,
covering it with the washed muslin will not only
hide seams, it should have a good tone to go with
an old map.
The window should be made of several layers of
board, both for separation from the glazing and
so that it is rigid enough that it can be safely
handled while the map is being installed. An old
trick can help, here. Strips of board can be cut, wider than the ultimate sides of the window will be. They should be cut with a bevel running aloung
one long edge and another bevel cut across one end
of the strip. The bevels should be aligned so that
when the long bevel is face up, the short bevel will be face down. These strips can be laid out
so that their inner edges for an opening of the
desired size and their ends can be taped together
with linen tape. The next layer should be set on
top of those so that their bevels align with the
bevels below and they meet in the corners. This,
latter, layer should form a pinwheel pattern that
is opposite to the pinwheel pattern of the first
layer, so that the joins of the lower layer are
overlapped. This will be true of each successive
layer and each layer will be glued to the one
below.When enough layers have been attached, the
outer edges can be trimmed to the proper size. If you are convering the window with the muslin, having a number of joints will not be a visual problem. The muslin can be secured to the window by rolling artists' gloss acrylic medium onto the front and bevel of the window and allowing it to dry. The cloth can be ironed onto the dry acrylic. If everything is carefully fitted
together, the resulting window should be attractive, relatively rigid, and easy to handle.
The back mat can be made of spliced 40 X 60 board
that has been glued to acid free corrugated or
a foam centered board.

Good luck,

Hugh
 
(Hugh beat me to it, but...)
The fabric can be attached with PVA adhesives specially made for the task (trade names like "Mighty Muck" and "Miracle Muck"), or acrylic gel medium (used to extend acrylic paints) can be used. They can be rolled on with a thin nap foam roller and left to dry (you will be introducing unequal humidity to the mount/mat so you need to let the glue dry completely to avoid warping). The fabric adheres when the adhesive is heated as with an iron.
The spacers can be made of wood and sealed with varnish. They can then also be wrapped with the muslin or finished to match the frame (being careful about what you introduce to the frame environment). Other options include facing strips of the coroplast with rag board strips or building up several layers of the rag board into strips. Again covering with the muslin remains an option. My inclination is to go with the milled wood strips, seal them, and cover them. The splicing and layering would be full of pitfalls.

Sounds like you've got the bull by the tail....hang on!
 
Spacers can be made of 4 ply board that has been
backed with acid-free corrugated or foam centered
board and is then cut into strips of the desired
width (= the height of the spacer). These can be
stuck to the clean glazing with double-sided tape
or they can be glued onto the frame itself. This
latter technique makes fitting harder. If the
window is covered with muslin, a cream colored
board should match its tone. The spacers can be
wrapped with the cloth, but then they will have
to be glued to the sides of the frame, after the
acrylic has been set in place.

Hugh
 
Holy cow?

Do you really need a mat?

How about floating it. Cover the mounting/backing board with fabric. If you want to hinge the map to rag, then glue rag board cut smaller than the map to the fabric covered back board. With something that large the map will end up touching the acrylic anyway. I understand condensation is Less likely with acrylic and you will get a lot of air gap because of bowing.

If you insist on the mat and spacer, you could also use a fabric cover liner with rag backing place between the acrylic and the map. I like to do this with pastels. It would be seamLess and provide the air gap - and no need to make up small p.i.t.a. spacer strips.
 
Float mounting would look more interesting but would not provide as much support also something of this size is likely to curl on the edges or bulge in the middle and touch the plexi. Depending on how much of the edge you are covering with the mount using a spacer under the top mount cut back a bit so it's out of sight will help make any ripples in the artwork less noticable.

Another thing to look at is how wide your rebate is on the frame. Something this large is much easier to fit up if you have a 1/2" rebate or more. Plexi also expands and contracts more than glass and can shrink 1/8" or more at this size.
 
Wow! I thought I knew what I was doing now and wouldn' be double posting anymore....
 
Will the fabric covered mountboard be attached to the Coroplast? Or is the Coroplast simply to be used as the final backboard?

In either case, for a piece that big, even two layers of Coroplast with the corrugations running perpendicular, will still be quite flexible.

I'd suggest using a braced wooden strainer to give the rigidity you'll need. Then you can probably get away with a single layer of Coroplast, cutting down on the weight. I've double -sided taped the matboard to the Coroplast (running lengths every 8 - 10 inches or so) then screwed the mount to the strainer and cutting little countersinks into the matboard for the screw head to fit into.

Rebecca
 
Thanks to everyone for your advice….I would not have felt confident about putting a quotation in for this job without your help…….I’m not really expecting to get the go ahead……the job is for a local town council…and there was no budget provision for framing….or at least for the framing package I quoted for….it is most likely the first time a conservation officer in Ireland has ever seen a quotation for framing like I presented……”Preservation” framing to FACTS standards….is unknown or almost unknown in Ireland….I’m not discouraged by the prospects of not obtaining this job….it is a starting point for me in promoting “Preservation Picture Framing”….and as the conservation community is very small in Ireland it should not take long for information about what I can offer to circulate between the potential customers I would like to attract…the limited response I have had to todate about providing a full “Preservation Picture Framing” service has been very positive….and I’m in no doubt that there is a market (quite a good) for it in Ireland……

Some further updates on the practicalities of undertaking this project in Ireland…..

The map is in good condition and has under gone a full conservation treatment……..and yes I was proposing to float mount…

I tried to obtain “washed unbleached cotton muslin”…not available in Ireland or the UK (at least I cannot find a source and I good at sourcing products) though I can get a dyed cotton muslin in a neutral colour….would this dyed material be OK….or who can I buy this from in the US….the shipping on muslin from the US should be reasonable…….incidentally I love the idea of using the muslin…as it would overcome many of the lack of material problems I face…..

Glues….what type of PVA….we don’t have “Mighty/Miracle Muck” over here…or if I were to bring in a few tubs of this from the US what is the shelf life of “Mighty/Miracle Muck”!!!! …or will I face any problems with the Acrylic Gel medium…like delaminating!!!!…I’m almost positive I can get this product in Ireland….I take it that this is a Windsor Newton product!!!…….

Wood seal……I take it that any good quality Acrylic Varnish will do!!!…..and what amount of time do I need to allow for curing!!!

I have worked with Acrylic glazing in the past……though this size is giving me some thought about rebate size……should this job come in I may suggest a specially milled moulding…

Yes I ‘m proposing to use a Museum board over the Coroplast®….and I really like the idea of using strainers attached to the Coroplast®

Once again I most grateful for all your help and suggestions…..I have just about reached the point that I feel I can go with offering a full “Preservation Picture Framing” service in Ireland….I just need to work out the material supply chain problems….and work on getting a bit of hands on experience…….it a good opportunity for me if I can offer a “Preservation Picture Framing” service over here…..and would most likely give me the success I desire from framing that had eluded me for the most part to date….

Any further suggestions or advice is most appreciated…..I would not be able to even think about this project never mind execute it without your help…

BTW…..I quoted €1650 + our 21% VAT (Tax) total €1966 + any delivery charges….which is about US$2600….not quite enough I would think but I can live with it as a starting point….my COG would be max €350 to €400 max + 21% VAT……
 
Have you considered raw Irish linen? You can wash it to remove the sizing and other chemicals from processing. There must be some there at a dressmaking shop. Or how about some white cotten sheets.

As for the sealing of the rabbit with acrylic. I would prefer to use Linco's metalic rabbit sealing tape. It is a multi-ply product (metal foil - conservaton blue paper carrier with an acrylic adhesive). Lion in the UK might have it.
 
Jerry just the sort of feed back I looking for…great stuff….yes I had thought of Irish Linen….(though I think it is made in the far East these days)….I was just not sure of what range of cloths I could use….and what sort of wash cycle would I need…will one final rinse be enough!!

I can most likely get Linco products out of the UK…..but anything coming from the US via the UK to Ireland becomes horridly expensive….I would also be wary of how long some of these products may have sat in a warehouse in the UK…..some small things I can import direct from the US quicker and less expensive than from the UK….DHL/FedEx land 2 cargo planes in Ireland from the US every night…one in Shannon and one in Dublin (for the Tech and Medical industries)……small light packages work out quite inexpensive….it the big stuff that caused problems and expense..

Thanks

PS
I still keeping my figures crossed that I will to see you in September and travel on to Atlanta with you……Jeans schedule is getting very heavy (one London trip and a Paris trip this week….Spain and Holland next week) ….though she has pencilled in that I may be away for a about 8 to 10 days in September………I should be able to start making firm plans about mid month…
 
Dermot, while we're in Atlanta we'll run out and find some fabric shops. They all carry unbleached muslin in their quilting supplies. It's available in 45", 90", and 120" widths.

Or - let me know what you think you'll need and I'll bring it with me. Less time spent shopping = more time to hang out at the Omni.

Kit
 
Kit….another great suggestion…… “quilting” supplies perhaps I have been searching or asking for the wrong thing…..I would if possible like to source my materials locally...it just more reliable when you are trying to get something off the ground….I know from past experiences that distance supply sources can cause problems…….though for small light products I would not consider the US distant…I would just need a friendly supply source who will be willing to work with me to get the supply chain in place…..this can be difficult for the first few orders…and my buy quantity will be small…for some time……note the optimistic tone :eek: “some time”

Thanks
 
Dermot, you understand, of course, that shopping in fabric stores represents a terrible hardship for me. But I'm willing to do it for a friend and fellow framer.

Kit
 
Dermot, you understand, of course, that shopping in fabric stores represents a terrible hardship for me. But I'm willing to do it for a friend and fellow framer.

Kit
 
So once you get this supply network together will you then become a source for those supplies in Ireland? You never know where it might lead.
You might want to check out the small distributors in the US that are supplying conservators and museums with their supplies and see if their business model wouldn't work well in your fledgling conservation market. You might be able to carve yourself a larger, more well appointed niche.
 
I’m sitting hear a bit stunned…..it looks like this monster is going to get the go ahead…..I’m really in at the deep end now!!!……it’s great news and if this customer can come up with the money for this type of work……my judgment that others will be interested is well founded……

My pitch and quotation must have been quite convincing….I did this one by writing the proposal and quotation….I have yet to talk to the actual owner (town council) of the map…my writen quotation/proposal went via the conservator that repaired the map….

Thanks again guys …..
 
Wow, so much great suggestions, especially using fabric on the backing(I use linen) and the strainer for support.

If you do float it and hinge it onto a 4 ply mat board which then goes against the fabric, I never attach my mat board or anything onto the fabric (I do many large pieces, 90 inches by 30, with art work floated on linen.) After adhering the fabric, I cut away the fabric a couple of inches less then the art work, and adhere the mat board to what is directly underneath. In my case, I wrap my fabric on foamcore and a mat board-to-foamcore bond is more reliable than a mat board-to-fabric bond.
Also if you float, you must attach your map all the way around because, without matting over, the map will pull toward the plexi...BUT

And even if you do attach the map around the entire perimeter, then the center of the map will bulge toward the plexi. My large pieces are done with plexi and the static electricity can actually pull art off it's hinge if I'm not careful.

I think one of the biggest challenges will be cloing it up clean. It's basically a large shadowbox and your spacers will secure your plexi and all this time, lint and such will be attracting to your plexi. (Actually you can keep the protective paper on the inside while you're installing spacers, folded away from edges of course.)

And use tape or a lint roller to remove any little pieces of thread or lint from your wrap before you close because otherwise it will slam right up against your plexi and the more you have to keep opeing it to get stuff out, the more will sneak in.

I'm really pooped tonight and I could probably have done a better job replying...sorry if I've rambled...I hope this helps because large projects with fabric and plexi are very near and dear to my heart

And last but not least, I was fortunate enough to visit Ireland many years ago...your countryside is incredibly beautiful. As you can see by my long reply, I did kiss the Blarney stone

Top 'O the Mornin to Ya
 
This is a real live project now :eek: ……I just got the go ahead
………what have I let myself in for……..HELP
shrug.gif


Oh….and I also got a smaller less challenging job along with the MONSTER.. :D

Thanks all who have made suggestions to date
thumbsup.gif
…..I’m still thinking about how I will tackle this job
kaffeetrinker_2.gif
….so I will welcome any other suggestions that anyone wants to make….
help.gif
 
Well it’s done…….what a challenge….this one stretched me to the limit…….there was a huge learning curve……not so much with the methodology, I had super help from all you guys…..the challenge was more with the sourcing of materials and the handling of a project of this size

Thanks everyone for your support…..it did not work out quite how I had originally planned there was simply to many problems and issues with the source of suitable materials in Ireland for a project of this size….but I'm happy to say that it does meet FACTS standards bar the glazing………the conservator I have worked with on this project is delighted with the results and also with the fact that this level of framing is now available in Ireland….

I very happy with the results and will have no issue with standing over the standard of my work.

A side bar to this work is that I have now been invited to join the IPCRA (Irish Professional Conservators and Restorers Association) www.ipcra.org I believe I’m the first framer to get this invitation……Liz the conservator who I worked with is the membership officer and has been very impressed with my knowledge……….it is a nice honour to receive..

Once again thanks everyone


Tipperary032.jpg
 
That is a really great job Dermott!

I see it is levitating off the ground, how did you get such a big frame job sooooo light? :D
 
Job well done and congratulations on your nomination.
 
All that fussing over that little thing?

Just kidding. Good job Dermot, it looks great!
 
Originally posted by Dermot:
Well it’s done...there was a huge learning curve...but I'm happy to say that it does meet FACTS standards bar the glazing...the conservator I have worked with on this project is delighted with the results and also with the fact that this level of framing is now available in Ireland...A side bar to this work is that I have now been invited to join the IPCRA (Irish Professional Conservators and Restorers Association)...I believe I’m the first framer to get this invitation...Liz the conservator who I worked with is the membership officer and has been very impressed with my knowledge...it is a nice honour to receive...
Click to expand...
Congratulations on your invitation to join the IPCRA. I guess that would be an honor in any case, and certainly because you are the first framer.

Isn't it interesting that all of us, regardless of our tenure, training, or range of framing experience, occasionally come into a new framing situation. That's what keeps it fun, eh?

It's too bad you couldn't acquire the UV-filtering acrylic, but you obviously did the best with available materials.

If the display area is subjected to much light, might it be feasible to cover the face of it with a pull-down blind? I've installed a few of those, cut to fit, directly above or behind a few jobs. It's easy to raise the blind for viewing, and then keep it covered otherwise.

Nice job. See you in Atlanta!
 
The framed map is going into the Board Room of the County Tipperary SR (South Riding) County Council (Local Area Government) offices ….the board room will only be used a few times a month for Council meetings when not in use the window blinds will be kept shut……

BTW Jim….at present I cannot even get a supply of regular size UV glass or Acrylic in Ireland…..I intend to go to the UK in October/November to start getting my supply of UV glass…..I have put a light truck on the road principally for this task….bang went my plan to get myself a 4x4!!……..I just cannot afford at present to have two vehicles on the road for my work and personal requirements……but I will be sign writing the truck so there is an up side there…….bottom line is that the supply of preservation materials in Ireland is a nightmare…..but I can work this to my advantage…it will make it very difficult for any competition to catch up with me……..

and not a preservation issue but the finishes (my foot) moulding I used had to virtually redone it was in a mess that cost me a few hours….wait till I’m with the supplier the next time…they are for it…..

As I said a big challenge…but I did it and it has given me great confidence to concentrate my full efforts into developing myself as Mr. "Preservation Picture Framer" in Ireland…

Once again thanks to all…..
 
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