Wanted Help in Fighting Big Boxes in N.Y.

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FraminFool

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I've done a bit of research on the subject of false advertising in NY State, and it turns out that JoAnnes, AC Moore, and Michaels' practice of perpetually "discounting" an artificially inflated custom framing price is worth complaining to the Attorney General about. It seems that a company needs to have sold the item or service at the "full" price with some frequency.
Federated Department Stores (Macy's) and Jos. A. Bank have both paid a very high price for similar practices.
I have filed a complaint with the A.G.'s Office as well as with the Federal Trade Commission regarding this deception and have received correspondence from both offices leading me to believe that each is taking a closer look at all three companies' advertising.
But let's face it - I'm only one person voicing one complaint. If there is one thing I've learned observing political offices it's that there's strength in numbers.
So, here's where the WANTED comes in. I WANT some other NY framers to join me in filing complaints against these companies so that we can begin to compete with them on an even playing field. We might even get a little corrective advertising out of it.
I look forward to hearing from any and all. I'd be happy to share my letters with you to make it even less work!
Thanks.
 
Do you have to have purchased an item to be able to complain about this? Can someone who hasn't bought an item be in a position to complain?

I wouldn't mind trying this near me in VA, but I don't know how laws differ.
 
Actually, I was advised by the A.G.'s Office that you do not need to be the "consumer" to file the complaint. If they feel the complaint has merit, they will pursue it "on behalf of the consumers of N.Y. State". You have simply brought the situation to their attention.
 
I'd be surprised if you can get anywhere with this. Large companies in every industry do the same thing. Is there a law against how many "sale" promotions a business can have? Because if so, every car dealer and Mattress retailer in the country is in trouble. Is there ever a time when one of those two products are not "on sale"??

Just like the BB's in our industry they have adjusted thier prices so that the year round "sale" price is the actual desired retail price of the item.

If I wanted I could open a frame shop and call it "50% off Frames" and then double the normal retail price. Or am I wrong? Are there laws that dictate what the price of my product can be?
 
Don't forget every Persian rug company with their going out of business sales...

thats what keeps them in business... They always seem to be around after the sales.
 
Puppiesonacid said:
Don't forget every Persian rug company with their going out of business sales...

thats what keeps them in business... They always seem to be around after the sales.
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"Dont mess with the Zohan" was a stupid movie but my favorite part is the store that is called "Going out of Business" They are not going out of business that is just the name of the store and they have a big yellow and red banner for a permanant sign with that title.
 
framerbob said:
If I wanted I could open a frame shop and call it "50% off Frames" and then double the normal retail price. Or am I wrong? Are there laws that dictate what the price of my product can be?
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I don't know about that specific example, but if this person has done some research and found that the state laws or city bylaws allow for this to be an issue, than they are breaking the law and I applaud all in that state that work to rectify the situation, whether they are directly impacted by it or not.

We have a very similar situation in our community with home-based businesses. I have no beefs with any hb in any field/profession as long as they follow the laws. In our town an hb cannot carry stock and sell it on aregular basis. We started out hb by offering custom only and then once a year setiing up as allowed in the bylaws to sell at the local craft shows. You can offer catalogue sales and set up in a commercial space on the first weekend of each month. And, if a commercial business opens in town selling same or similar product you have 1 year to get a commercial space or shut down.
Local art gallery started offering custom framing when we approached them about working together with the artists. We went and bought property...hence a store front. Art gallery closed, moved home and has continued to operate for 2+ years...if we could get proof...we'd do the same.
Those in town who know (and could help) are fearful of repercussions....so, FraminFool I applaud you for taking a chance to do something!
 
Michaels custom framing is not on sale this week. And I believe (from experience from working there) there are 6 weeks out of the year that custom framing is not on sale.

Joanns (where I currently work) is different. It's a "coupon sale". You do, indeed, have to have a coupon either from us or a competitor to get the sale. And yes, we do have blackout periods.

Don't know about the other places.
 
Actually, if you look up NY State vs Federated Department Stores you'll see that one of their stores -Kaufmans - had advertised a single item (Braun coffee maker) as being on sale for a period of 3 months. The A.G. investigated and found that over a protracted period of time, over 500 units were sold BUT only a few were sold at full price.This imbalance was enough to convince the A.G. that the sale price was deceptive. They even went so far as to comparison- shop at other stores in the area and found that these stores were offering the same price as their "everyday" price. Bottom line - Kaufmans settled for a $740,000. fine and stopped the practice.
Regarding the "blackout" periods, it appears that N.Y. is aware that there needs to be better balance between "on sale" and "off sale".
Michaels may not be advertising a sale in a flyer this week but a telephone inquiry will yield the info that "we're running our 40-50-60 promotion". Same offense.
 
Interesting, sounds like a possibly good use for Facebook here; Be it word of mouth or a paid ad to help spread the word.
 
Why don't a bunch of us independent framers start a website called WeWillBeatMichaelsPriceByOneDollar.com. Consumers can be directed to the nearest participating framer in their zipcode. 10% of all proceeds can be used to fund the site.
 
I called my local AG here in Virginia, and asked if there was a law preventing a retailer to have a year-round sale and never selling an item for a retail price. The phone person said they believe it's legal, but they directed me to this website which may determine otherwise.

I can't seem to find a law in here preventing our local big-box competition from offering "sale" prices all year long.

Does anyone with 20 minutes to kill find anything?
http://leg1.state.va.us/
 
CB Art & Framing said:
Why don't a bunch of us independent framers start a website called WeWillBeatMichaelsPriceByOneDollar.com.
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I believe this would only honor Michaels as the competitor that establishes the most competitive prices. But that is not necessarily true -- most of us can beat their prices all day long.

Mentioning a competitor in advertising could backfire. I'd rather promote the best of what we do and let the competitors fend for themselves.
 
Right Jim but it doesn't have to mention them to work, it could say Beat Big Box Deals or something. Our 10% off will beat their 60% off 24/7, whatever...
 
RParrish said:
... it could say Beat Big Box Deals or something. Our 10% off will beat their 60% off 24/7, whatever...
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That reduces us -- our work, our business, our purpose, our existence -- to the promise of lowest price. Do I want customers to come here for the lowest price? No, I want them to come here for the highest quality/best selection/fastest service/protective displays/unique designs/YouNameItOtherThanPrice. The fact that we also have the lowest price -- or close to it -- clinches the deal.

From the advertising standpoint, there's no way we can compete with the craft stores' low-price message in their full-color inserts in every Sunday newspaper. At least in my market, they have already won the low-price battle in the perception of consumers.

Since I stopped advertising discounts, customers who respond to our advertising tend to focus on capabilities and value, and not so much on price. I'm liking it this way.
 
So, am I hearing that it's time to roll over and accept this situation as inevitable and irreversible. Sorry, but I can't go along with that.
The point that is being missed here is that these practices have already stripped away a percentage of everybody's sales. In the years ahead as our "base customers" begin to age and lose interest in custom framing, the new entries to the market will believe the garbage ads the Big Boxes are running and : a.) become their customer having never had the opportunity to realize the level of service we can offer; or b.) after being quoted a ridiculous "regular" price at the Big Box - they could be soured to the whole idea of custom framing, left to assume that our prices would HAVE to be even higher.
I fear that aquiesence will lead to extinction. Left unchecked, professional custom frame shops could go the way of the local paint store, hardware store, stereo shop, et., etc.. The category killers in these industries used pretty much the same guerilla marketing to chip away at the competition - eventually owning the market free and clear.
Go ahead, ask someone under the age of 25 where they would go to get any of these services. Dollars to donuts, the answer will be a Big Box Retailer. Why? - they simply don't know any better. And in five years when asked where they would go to have their first custom frame done, what do you think their answer is going to be?
All I'm saying is that we can take steps to control the message so that we can all focus on competing with each other on a level playing field - allowing the customer to make their decision the old fashioned way - based on the businesses design sense; the proprietors personality; the selection of mouldings carried; the quality of the work; location; and LASTLY, a real price based in fact NOT in fiction!
 
cjmst3k said:
I called my local AG here in Virginia, and asked if there was a law preventing a retailer to have a year-round sale and never selling an item for a retail price. The phone person said they believe it's legal, but they directed me to this website which may determine otherwise.

I can't seem to find a law in here preventing our local big-box competition from offering "sale" prices all year long.

Does anyone with 20 minutes to kill find anything?
http://leg1.state.va.us/
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bump.
 
I don't think that is what is being said. If you look at the people who are responding, none of us are in New York. As I said before, I am vocal about the illegal/grey areas (as our officials like to call them) that create unfair advantages for my competitors in my region. (The town is less than 4 000 people, so I know every person I talk to and I don't mince my words about it).
Others on this thread have seized the information you provided and investigated to see if they can do somethingabout it in their state. So I don't think anyone is saying lie down and take it, but simply be sure to weigh all pros and cons and do thorough investigation before going off half cocked.
I'd also like to point out that, while you posted a request for people to rally behind you and support your cause/case...you did it from behind a mask.
 
cjmst3k said:
I can't seem to find a law in here preventing our local big-box competition from offering "sale" prices all year long.

Does anyone with 20 minutes to kill find anything?
http://leg1.state.va.us/
Click to expand...

I made it to 2004...found 2...the first may be a stretch, but if you have someone who will only charge if you win the case you could try to prove that their all year "sale" implies that you are always over-priced, thereby damaging your reputation...SB 1233 Crimes; damage to business reputation, etc. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?031+sum+SB1233
the second is about fake coupons...maybe sales apply here...would need more info...and a law degree (preferably US) to be certain...HB 170 False discount coupon; penalty for use, definition. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?041+sum+HB170

K, that took 30 minutes....now I'm off to bed....night all! :D
 
The first one refers to someone attempting to harm the reputation of a business by bringing frivolous suit for the purpose of impeding the defendants ability to conduct business.

The socond one is in reference to a third party creating a bogus coupon or gift certificate for the purpose of financial gain.
 
Here's what you are looking for, and what you can do:

When Michaels opened one of their first stores in Connecticut (1996), I clipped their newspaper ads for several weeks, and also took a poster to Michaels and had it framed. I sent this evidence with a complaint to the CT Department of Consumer Protection, which initiated an action against Michaels.

Below is a copy of a draft of what is known as an Assurance of Voluntary Compliance (AVC) that was sent to me for comment. Not sure what happened after that because I had just opened my second store and went back to minding my business. However, I can tell you that Michaels stopped running the ads for quite a while. Unfortunately, they've recognized they can get away with whatever they want because outside of me, know one has taken the time to try to stop them

Every small business owner in our industry should file a similar complaint. Deceptive and Unfair Trade Practice Laws are not just to protect consumers, they also protect competition. These laws, also known as Baby FTC Acts, are there to prevent this type of sham sale. The litmus test of a bonified sale is what happens to prices when the sale ends. In the case of Michaels, it starts again at 9 am the next day. Also, there are POS signs proclaimin 50% off, and even a banner hanging in the main entrance.

Stop sitting on your asses while your business is getting pooped on. Do something about it. Protect you business and protect your income.

If you take the time to file a complaint, you'll get results. Collect evidence and include it with your complaint.

In the time it takes you to write two posts on the Grumble, you could have fired off a complaint letter to you AG's office, who has a fiduciary responsibility to investigate and act upon legitimate complaints.
 

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Well said. But regarding the earlier comments about speaking out from behind a "mask" - I don't see the point. But if it helps- my name is Paul Martterer, owner of Morningside Gallery in Latham, N.Y. and I began framing in 1970, learning the Trade from the ground up and eventually opening my own store in 1983. In those 40 years I have seen bits and pieces of this industry chipped away by bigger competitors to the point that "today's" shop barely resembles the one I began in. The occasional sale of a photo frame or a poster are but fleeting memories.
Internally, the industry itself has made it more difficult for the true professional to stand out- with chop & join services and mat cutting services eliminating the need to "pay your dues" and learn the essentials of the trade. At this rate, the next generation of Professional Picture Framers will be nothing more than Local reps for companies like Larson Juhl. Their true skill will be SALES, not Framing.
I love what I do, and it bothers me to no end that a Big Box store with more advertising dollars can use deceptive practices to compete with me. We all know that they can't compete on the level of skill, service, design, and yes, PRICE! But, does the public know? That's the rub.
Regarding the "local" nature of my Help-Wanted, let me expand it to everyone by encouraging you to file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission citing Article 43a of the Lanham Act which deals with Unfair Competition.
 
TEKniques said:
I made it to 2004...found 2...the first may be a stretch, but if you have someone who will only charge if you win the case you could try to prove that their all year "sale" implies that you are always over-priced, thereby damaging your reputation...SB 1233 Crimes; damage to business reputation, etc. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?031+sum+SB1233
the second is about fake coupons...maybe sales apply here...would need more info...and a law degree (preferably US) to be certain...HB 170 False discount coupon; penalty for use, definition. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?041+sum+HB170



K, that took 30 minutes....now I'm off to bed....night all! :D
Click to expand...


Thanks!! I have some reading to do!!

...oh, wait, I have a 9.5' framer order to do... hmmm...
 
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