HELP! Camera trouble with Viz.

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Jim Miller

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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Last week my visualization system worked well. Yesterday it did not.

When I click to show the 'real time' image on the table, I'm supposed to see what's on the table, complete with customer's hands moving the samples I so meticulously placed around the art.

What I saw yesterday was a blur. Black on the left, white on the right, separated by a fuzzy, wiggly, zig-zaggy line. I thought the camera (Canon S1-IS) was on the blink, so I took it down and used it normally. It worked normally. I put it back...same thing again. When I click on "take picture" in the program screen, I can hear the shutter release, and then the squiggly black/white image on my screen freezes, as though the camera just took a picture of it.

I have five visualization systems installed on my computer, most of them in trial mode for a recent comparison I did. The camera performs the same on all of them, so I know it's not the software.

I think the problem might be that I'm using two standard, 10-foot USB cables linked together, but no booster. I suspect that my USB connection has deteriorated and is no longer strong enough to carry all the data.

Is this possible? If so, what's the best USB booster, and where can I get it quickly and cheaply?

Any suggestions?
 
Hi Jim

USB has a maximum range of about 16 feet. If you go over that distance, you'll start seeing reliability and speed problems; while the software re-tries attempts to talk with the camera. Intensive actions such as zooming, may make it especially noticeable with a marginal installation beyond this limit.

There are multiple ways to get around the limit:

a) USB 2.0 Active extension cable - This is the method I suggest.
They extend 16' ea, maximum 5 stacked units
examples:
4 ft included cable + 16ft repeater (20' total)
4 ft included cable + 16ft repeater + 16ft repeater (36' total)
4 ft included cable + 16ft repeater + 16ft repeater + 16ft repeater (52' total)
etc... (max 5 repeaters or 80+4 feet)

$19.98 USBGear Item # UGM-800-5M-usb2-repeater
http://www.usbgear.com/USB2_extensio...ion-cable.html
-or-
$18.99 Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Hi-Speed-USB-A...&s=electronics
-or-
$16.95 Buy Extras item # 12-15-026
http://www.buyextras.com/16fehiquusb2.html


b) USB 1.x LINE EXTENDER DEVICE - These are slower and can be less reliable
They extend up to 150 feet, using a standard Cat5 ethernet cable.
$67.98 USBGEAR
http://www.usbgear.com/171632.html
-or-
$55.00 Network Tech, Inc
http://www.networktechinc.com/usbc5.html
-or-
$69.00 Nextag/Onsale
http://www.onsale.com/shop/detail.aspx?dpno=399841&store=onsale&source=BWBNEX TAG&srccode=cii_9324560&cpncode=08-21615226-2&wt.mc_id=BWBNEXTAG

Note: Category 5 cable is also needed and not included in above. You can buy from 25-150 feet. Max you can go is 150+4ft included cable. (154')


c) USB Wireless - this is where it's all heading - but not just yet, IMO :)
I don't think the technology is really "there" yet. but it's getting closer all the time. Last year's device was a flop and was actually recalled. This is the new one
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=205557488&listingid=10326917&dcaid=17902
I know of two shops using this technology with FrameVue, but still recommend (A)

With all the above said, I think your problem is something else entirely. I just wanted to be thorough with the answer.

Sony manufactured a HUGE batch of defective CCD sensors, and they were pretty much the only game in town at the time. The bad CCD sensors were manufactured between October 2002- March 2004. The Canon S1 IS was made from the defective batch, and many have failed. Canon will gladly replace the S1 IS (most likely with an S3 IS), even though the warrantee has expired.

Over 100 different camera models from Canon, Sony, Nikon, Fuji, Konica, Minolta, Ricoh, Olympus, Pentax, Panasonic, etc were included in this bad batch. The rear backup camera in my 2004 car went bad, because of this same batch, and was replaced at no charge. The symptoms are usually dark or streaking on the display, which is often very light sensitive. It'll work in very dark conditions.

To make sure, try hooking up the camera only with the 4 foot included cable. This will eliminate the possibility of a bad cable, or one that is beyond the limit.

Here's are some example pictures and a list of defective products:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/badccds.html

Our Canon S1 IS is still happily chugging along with FrameVue, but it's on the doomed list as well. They will only replace the unit if it has the above behavior.

I hope this is helpful

See ya in VEGAS!
Mike Labbe
Get The Picture
 
Thanks for your very fast and thorough reply, Mike. I just ordered a pair of the USBGear Item # UGM-800-5M-usb2-repeater cables, as you suggested. I guess these would be recommended in any case.

You're probably right about a defect in the camera. My set up has worked consistently for about two years, even with 20 ft. of standard USB cables, but something has changed. I will contact Canon about the camera, because your description sounds exactly like my problem.
 
Here's the actual press release from Canon, for your model, with return information:

Service Notice: CCD Image Sensor Advisory (Updated 10/31/2006)
spacer.gif
PowerShot S1 IS
s1is_68x68.gif

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/c...goryid=322&modelid=9824&keycode=2112&id=29819
This Service Notice will update Canon U.S.A., Inc.'s previous CCD Image Sensor Advisory, dated October 6, 2005.

It has come to our attention that the vendor-supplied CCD image sensor used in certain Canon digital cameras and digital video camcorders may cause the following malfunction: When the product is used in recording or playback mode, the LCD screen and/or electronic viewfinder may exhibit either a distorted image or no image at all. While reports of this malfunction have been rare in the United States, we have determined that it may occur if the product is exposed to hot and humid environments.

Notice of Additional Affected Products:
As a result of our continuing investigation of this malfunction, we have determined that the 11 models listed below, in addition to the 16 models listed in our Service Notice concerning this malfunction, dated October 6, 2005, may be affected.

Affected products:
- Camcorders: ZR60, ZR65 MC, ZR70 MC, ZR80, ZR85, ZR90, ELURA 40 MC, ELURA 50
- Digital Cameras A60, A70, A75, A300, A310, S230, SD100, SD110, A40(*), A80(*), A85(*), A95(*), S1 IS(*), S60(*), S200(*), S330(*), S400(*), S410(*), S500(*)
*Models added as of Oct.31, 2006

Malfunction:
It has been confirmed that the connecting parts of the internal wiring of the CCD used in affected products may become disconnected, especially if the affected products are stored or used in high-temperature and high-humidity environments. If this occurs, the signal is not output from the CCD normally in Shooting Mode, which may cause a distorted image or the absence of an image. This malfunction can be confirmed on the LCD monitor screen during shooting. The same malfunction also appears on the recorded image.

Canon's Response:
Effective immediately, and regardless of warranty status, Canon will repair, free of charge, the products listed above exhibiting the above-mentioned malfunction if Canon determines that the malfunction is caused by the CCD image sensor. Canon will also cover the cost of shipping and handling in connection with this repair.
U.S. residents are kindly directed to contact the Canon Customer Support Center for further assistance at 1-800-828-4040. Support hours are Monday thru Friday - 8:00 AM to 12:00 midnight; and Saturday 10:00 AM to 8:00 PM (all times EST). Alternatively, if electronic support is preferred, please send your email to carecenter@cits.canon.com

This information is for residents of the United States of America and Puerto Rico only. If you do not reside in the USA or Puerto Rico, please contact the Canon Customer Support Center in your region.

We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience caused by this issue, and appreciate your understanding in this matter. Thank you for your support and patronage of Canon products.
 
Jim, I'd take the camera down off the ceiling and take a few manual pictures - zoomed in and out, and shots of objects near and far. This will verify that the camera can still take pictures normally. If that worked, then I'd hook it up to the PC wih just the short USB cable (no extenders) and try using the ZoomBrowser software that came with the camera, or maybe try connecting with a different PC. Hard to tell if the camera's the problem or maybe your PC is freakin out.

That's good information about the camera Mike.. I didn't know that Canon would fix that kind of problem regardless of warranty..
 
UPDATE.

Yesterday I phoned Canon, and the techy ran me through a few diagnostic tests on the camera. Yup, it's a defective sensor, and it will be repaired/replaced at no charge.

Canon has sent me return authorization by email. The UPS shipping label should be here in a few days, for return at their expense. It is supposed to come back 7-10 days after that.

Reaction #1: Canon cameras shouldn't be defective. They are supposed to be among the best available.

Reaction #2: Any product from any maker can turn out to have a defect. I'm impressed that Canon is taking responsibility for cameras that have run out of warranty.
 
Thanks, Mike. And thanks for your help with the specifications on your web page. What a great resource that is, for anyone looking into visualization.

The camera that just failed took all of the photos used in that article.
 
Thanks Mike for the heads up, I have an S1-IS with the same issue. I figured it was out of warrenty and didn't worry about it. I will be calling Canon tomorrow.
 
For those looking for a new camera, or who are getting a viz system now or at WCAF... Found this deal today from Beach Camera/BuyDig:

Canon S3 IS $269 shipped

http://www.buydig.com/shop/product....utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=CNPSS3&sku=CNPSS3




...and some pc deals starting at $399 shipped, including a 19" LCD:

http://www.dell.com/content/product...&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&dgc=BF&cid=20243&lid=507235

Best regards
Mike

PS: Most viz systems require a pc with XP. Check with your vendor first to make sure this is the PC and CAMERA you need.
 
Conclusion

Today I received a box from Canon.

The bad news is that they did not have the parts to fix my S1-IS, according to the nice little form letter in the box. The good news is that they sent a brand new S5-IS as the replacement.

If any others have the pleasure of upgrading your camera with FrameVue, note that previous versions will not support the new S5-IS. I had to get the latest upgrade today, in order to make it work. That's no big deal -- just a click on "Update FrameVue" under the Help tab. Updates are free.
 
Wow they gave you the brand new one!

I wish my S1 IS would die :) ha
 
Jim

Could you use your Nikon Coolpix 8800 for a viz set - up. I am just wondering about getting on emyself ^& using that camera that I already own.
 
Technically, you can use any camera - all visualization software packages that I know of have the ability to load and go from just a file.

So it's really just a matter of convenience. The Canon Powershot's are widely support by everyone because of the ability to remote capture via PC, decent price-point, and a nice SDK for developers to integrate with.

The Nikon 8800 does have the ability to capture images via the PC, but it's not supported directly in any visualization program (I believe, though I suppose someone could have by now) mainly because it's an expensive camera to be hanging on the ceiling. Though the way Canon's ignoring Vista it's becoming more attractive.
 
HB said:
Could you use your Nikon Coolpix 8800 for a viz set - up.
Click to expand...

Steve says my Nikon 8800 would work with the computer, but I was not aware of that, nor do I know how it would work. I think he's right; hanging that camera on the ceiling might be overkill and overpriced for the purpose.

For some Canon cameras, FrameVue is set up to control white balance, zoom, brightness, metering, and a few other camera parameters by the keyboard. That is a very handy feature, and I'm sure most of the visualization programs will eventually have that capability.

You really don't have to have a camera mounted on the ceiling or hooked up to the computer. Any .jpg image can be imported into the program from the CF card or whatever storage device is used in your camera. For advertising and magazine articles, I use the visualization software to make digital composite framing designs using .jpg images, some of which may be several years old, and which may have been modified in Paint Shop Pro. Likewise, images of frame and mat samples provided by suppliers may be imported, too, then saved as samples in the database.

While my S1-IS was away for repairs, I took a few photos of customers' art and objects on the floor using my new Canon Rebel Xti, and had no difficulty working with them in the program.

As Steve said, convenience is the difference, and that translates into time spent working with the images. When the customer is standing over your shoulder, half a minute of mousing around with image files external to the program seems like an eternity.

It's soooo much better to just click and go with a ceiling mounted camera. With a bit of practice, it is possible to produce a digital composite of a simple framing design for a customer in less than 2 minutes.
 
Don't ya know... our S1 IS died tonight, too.

They issued a call tag and said we should have a replacement within 10 days. (by the time we are back from Vegas)

Fingers crossed that it's an S5 IS!

Mike
 
I had a S1IS that died some time back. After seeing this thread I also noticed that the Canon A70 were on the list. I have 2 of those that I picked up on eBay for $.99 each plus a couple of dollars shipping. (the listing said bad LCD, and I was hoping to use them with viz software that doesn't need the LCD). Turns out these have the bad sensor too. Yesterday I got the evaluation request forms for all 3 cameras and then the shipping labels. I packed them up and dropped them off at the pak-mail in the shopping center at 5:00 pm last night. They are already in Illinois on a delivery truck and will be dropped off at Canon sometime today.
I too hope to have 3 new cameras when I get back from Vegas.

Glad I didn't pitch those A70s
 
Mike and Dave, I hope Canon doesn't run out of S5-IS cameras.

Wow! Dave, it sounds like you are really going to score on Canon's defective CCDs. Hmmm...I wonder if any of my friends have dead Canon cameras and would like to sell them to me real cheap...:D

Seriously, Canon has owned up to this serious and costly issue, and has taken full responsibility for the repairs/replacements of cameras out of warranty. I can't think of a better reason to endorse and support the Canon brand.

All things being equal in the past, I have always leaned toward Nikon, but this experience may change my mind. My new Rebel XTi is a fine camera for my purposes, too.
 
Jim, My understanding is that Sony is picking up the bill on these. This is also the result of a major class action law suit that may be adding more cameras soon. These Sony CCDs went into most all major brand cameras Nikon included. Some of the companies issued actual recalls, Canon went as far as fixing the ones that have shown this defect.
I also have a Canon S2IS with this problem, but it is not on the list yet. There seems to be a lot of S2IS with this issue but Canon has not added it to the list and is inconstant about fixing it at no-charge or for a charge.

I have been thinking of getting a Canon XTI for Nancy. They are $499 for the body only at B&H with a coupon code.

What lens/lenses did you get Jim? I have been doing a ton of research and purchasing for my 40D.

40D, 17-55mm 2.8 IS, 70-200mm 2.8L IS, 28-135mm 3.5-5.6 IS (soon to be put up for sale), 50mm 1.8
 
Uh-oh. I have an S2IS for my FrameVue that I haven't hooked up yet. Should I wait to see what happens? Maybe we'll talk about it at WCAF over dinner!
 
Very few S2 IS had the problem. Hook it up, it should be fine.

See you next week.

Take it easy!
Mike
 
Val, My S2 IS was from the very first batch. I wouldn't worry to much but if it dies you know to check that there may be a service advisory for it by then.
 
Thanks, Mike and Dave. It will be hooked up as soon as I get back.
 
FrameMakers said:
...I have been thinking of getting a Canon XTI for Nancy. They are $499 for the body only at B&H with a coupon code.

What lens/lenses did you get Jim?
Click to expand...

Because I needed the camera that day, I just bought the Canon kit with their standard 18-55 mm lens. I'm not a photographer by profession or hobby, so my needs are pretty simple and I may never build a big collection of lenses.

All I need to do is take really good pictures of frames on the wall and framing activities on a tabletop. That gets tricky, though. You should see some of the things I do to eliminate reflections (Museum Glass helps a lot!) and odd shadows. I usually rely on ambient light, but sometimes add flood or spot lighting, and seldom use the flash.

The XTi is user-friendly and gets great results in any light. I am most impressed by the color rendition -- much better than my Nikon 8800 ever was, even after careful tweaking of white balance. Very little barrel distortion, too.
 
Jim, if you like the 18-55 kit lens, you would love some of the other offerings. The 18-55 mk II that you have is considered to be one of canons worse lenses. I would suggest you get a canon 50mm prime lens that can be had at Midwest Photo used for $29. It is a F1.8 so it is a lot faster lens and better for low light.

When you decide that you want to take it on a trip. Get a Canon 18-55 IS ($175)lens and a 55-250 IS ($299). These are both newer lens releases and are considered much better then the old kit lenses. With these 2 lenses you will be well covered for most everything short of indoor hand held low light conditions.
 
Wow they replaced the S1 IS with a brand new S5 IS. It came yesterday.

Mike
 
Congratulations, Mike. You scored just like I did!

FrameMakers said:
I had a S1IS that died some time back. After seeing this thread I also noticed that the Canon A70 were on the list. I have 2 of those ...I too hope to have 3 new cameras when I get back from Vegas...
Click to expand...

Dave, how did your three-camera claim work out?
 
The cameras came in while I was in Vegas. I opened the big box first and in it was a nice shiny S5 IS. Then for the smaller boxes. I opened it up to find the same A70 that I sent in. Same for the 3rd box.
The A70's at least work now.
I was surprised that they bothered to repair an older and cheaper A70 rather then replace it with a newer but still cheaper model compared to the S5.

My wife Nancy got the new S5 IS and my oldest daughter Elizabeth (11) got Nancy's S2 IS and Katy (9) got Elizabeth's A400. My sister June (I will be nice and not give her age) got one of the A70's as a thank you for watching my girls while we were out in Vegas.

Everyone is happy but I am still surprised that they repaired the A70's rather then replacing them.

Dave
 
A couple other grumblers from the chat room have sent theirs in for repair/exchange, but no word yet.

The photo quality of the S5 blows the S1 away. The only thing I can't figure out is how to get it to come on automatically each day. I had a timer on the S1 and it went off and on with our store hours. So far with this one we have to go up there each morning and turn it back on. Has anyone found a workaround for this? If not, I may just remove the timer - and leave it powered on.

Mike
 
Every model is a bit different. I'm thinking maybe if i leave the power on all the time, it has a built in sleep mode. The the S1 I could turn the power off, via timer, and it would "remember" the on command when the power is turned back on. The S5 comes up "off" when powered up.


I should break the manual out, eh? :)
 
I bet that's exactly how the s5 works. The s1 was different.

I'll try that Monday :)

Mike
 
So, I need more than 16' to reach my camera. I purchased the cable that was recommended on the LS website. On the cable package it says that you can daisy chain up to 5 of these extensions, is there a difference between using 2 of these extension cables vs one cable and one repeater?
Ruth
 
Ruth Yheulon said:
So, I need more than 16' to reach my camera. I purchased the cable that was recommended on the LS website. On the cable package it says that you can daisy chain up to 5 of these extensions, is there a difference between using 2 of these extension cables vs one cable and one repeater?
Ruth
Click to expand...

As long as the total distance doesnt exceed 16 feet, without amplification, you'll be fine. It will perform exactly the same, at USB 2.x speeds.

The small (~4ft) cable that came with the camera has to be used, because it converts to the smaller plug found on the camera.

examples:
camera - 4 ft included cable + 16ft repeater - pc (20' total)
camera - 4 ft included cable + 16ft repeater + 16ft repeater - pc (36' total)
etc... (max 5 repeaters or 80+4 feet)

$19.98 USBGear Item # UGM-800-5M-usb2-repeater
http://www.usbgear.com/USB2_extensio...ion-cable.html
-or-
$18.99 Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Hi-Speed-USB-A...&s=electronics
-or-
$16.95 Buy Extras item # 12-15-026
http://www.buyextras.com/16fehiquusb2.html

I hope this info is helpful,
Mike

PS: There is also a long haul solution that uses ethernet wires to reach up to 150 feet, but at slower USB 1.x speeds. I only suggest this method when absolutely necessary, because I have found it to be less reliable. The 16' active repeater cords work every time, and they're very affordable :)
 
Mike Labbe @ GTP said:
Wow they replaced the S1 IS with a brand new S5 IS. It came yesterday.
Click to expand...

Just happened at my shop, and same thing, we got a new S5. Sweet.

Ours didn't completely fail, but there was noticeable banding across the images, especially along the top it was much darker. The new camera made a huge difference, in both quality and colors.
 
My CCD Image Sensor failed on my S1 last Monday, which is when I fell off the stool and cracked my ribs trying to read the serial #.

Insult to injury (literally ) they recorded my email wrong and I didn't get the return authorization. Had to call them back today and start over. Hope I at least get a new camera out of it also.

Another benefit of belonging to the Grumble. As I would have not know about the advisory and that Canon was repairing/replacing these even when out of warranty. Advice like that is worth the price of admission alone. :p
 
Last May 2008 / when my Canon S1 failed and I sent it in for repairs, it was replaced with a new S5. I decided that the S5 was too nice of a camera to hang on the ceiling, so I picked up another working S1 for the ceiling installation. The sensor on the second S1 went bad last week and I sent it back to Canon again. I was expecting that they would probably replace it with a newer version again, but this time they repaired it and sent it back.

Now I am still very happy to have gotten it repaired, (no charge ) but just thought I would advise everyone here as to the apparent new situation. As most of the previous experiences had been like mine, with a newer update.
 
what a bummer :( heh

At least they were great about fixing it, well out of warrantee.

They seem to be a decent company. The defective parts were made by SONY, who's quality has been very questionable for the past 6 or so years. (especially TV's, batteries, light sensors, and video game systems)

My auto's backup camera failed because of the same Sony part, but was fixed under warrantee.
 
They fixed ours quickly and returned it in time for the last few days of what passed for the Holiday Rush. We were glad to have it back!
 
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