help! archival contact adhesive?

pollu_sean

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Nov 28, 2004
Posts
6
Loc
los angeles
hi there!

just found this message board. cool place. great resource for artists as well as framers!

so, i was wondering if anyone knows if there is a good archival, water based contact adhesive out there.

been cruising through 3M's site but with no mention of the longterm properties of their adhesives.

any advice would be greatly appreciarted!!!

thanks
sean
 
Let me be the first to welcome you to The Grumble!!! Now of course it would help to know what you would be using this for. The old reliable is wheat paste or rice paste, the type used when doing Japanese hinging. This is not a 3M product. Let us know in what way you wish to use it, then we may help you out a bit better
Thanks
Patrick Leeland
 
well, thanks for responding so quickly!

basically i make acrylic paintings on the back of plexiglas and i want to add a backing to the entire piece. i want to laminate a thin sheet of plexi to the back of the painting to seal the whole thing in. (basically a plexi, paint, plexi sandwich) that is why i am interested in contact adhesives considering that a water based adhesive will never dry sandwiched between the 2 layers of plexi...

thanks again!
sean
 
Welcome to the grumble Patric and Sean. AT the top of the page is a search button. Looking for archival, type in Hugh, Rebecca for most recent topics.
 
Hello Sean,

As follow-up to JPete's suggestion, please scroll to the very top of the screen / page. Underneath the ad for United, is a line which contains 3 blue boxes. The line below that begins with "my profile". Go to the center of that line, where you will find "search".

Click on "search", then proceed to try different combinations of "archival adhesives", etc. JPete recommended inserting "Hugh" and "Rebecca" because their expertise is preservation techniques.

Welcome to TG.
 
from what i gather through searching through the archives is that i have a pretty unique problem. in fact, i know i have a pretty unique problem.

you see, these pieces are quite large, therefore i think a rollable liquid adhesive seems best. not only that, but a cleat will be attached and the weight of the piece will hang on that. the paint is definitely the weak point here, that is why i want to back the whole piece. i am concerned with archival because any bleedthrough or discoloration will show...

i can't find any info on the archival qualities of contact adhesives. i can see that the 3M sprays are quite popular but doubt that a spray is my best solution.

has anyone tried Beva or Lascaux adhesives. I found these listed on the Talus website. again, not much info in terms of archival qualities...


if this is not the appropriate venue for my questions, i understand, i know it is not really a framing question, nor am i a framer, just an artist trying to make work that will last. and quite frustrated at not find a decent solution no matter how hard i try!!!

maybe i should just go back to making "normal" paintings on canvas!

just thought i would give it a go!

thanks a million!
Sean
 
I might be off base here, but the general thought is adhesive, even (adhesives) with "neutral" properties effects change on the item it is attached to, and therefore it (adhesive) is, in general, avoided where "archival" is the major concern.

From your description, the adhesive will be a binder for a fabric to a paint film. A paint film laid onto a slick, non-porus surface.

The archival quality you seek in an adhesive is not the problem.

The problem is the weak point of the paint film to acrylic bond.

If your adhesive is stronger than that bond, under stress (hanging on a wall, or transporting) your paint film will fail at the point where it attaches to the acrylic. If it (your adhesive) is weaker than the paint film, the acrylic (and painting on it) will fall to the floor.

Is the goal to have a "frameless" painting on (the backside of the) acrylic?
 
One of the most important considerations in making
things last: keep it simple. Since you are already using acrylic paint on acrylic sheet, you
might use clear acrylic medium to bond the back
sheet to the painting.

Hugh
 
I would suggest that since you are using acrylic, that you make your sandwich of acrylic then use the regular acrylic adhesive which is liquid and let capillary action act around the edges of the two pieces. This adhesive is really just a solvent called Dichlormethane or methylene chloride. When used properly on acrylic it bonds the joint without any visual distortion, it takes practice, and two smooth surfaces to work well, and is an artform in itself to make acrylic pieces.

The solvent will melt the pieces together and disappear leaving no material that will harm your art work.
 
And then again, there is that antiquated seldom ever used by artist's method:

Use a frame.

Sorry for being a little caustic.... just stretched 5 canvases for an artist who "never uses frames" because they "detract".
shutup.gif


Oh well at $2/UI, I'll keep stretching. Evidently they didn't teach him how when he got his MFA at NYU. :D
help.gif
 
Hi Pollu sean,

Is the purpose of the 2nd acrylic sheet simply to protect the paint? Is the entire sheet of Plexi covered with paint, or are some parts see-through?
How do you want to display the pieces - conventionally, like framed and on a wall, or some other method?

I ask all these questions because, as Hugh says, there may be a simpler solution than glueing a second sheet of Plexi to the reverse of the first. I think you will be causing more problems than you are solving using that method.

e.g. Should something go wrong in the future - the paint layer will be inaccessible. Partial delamination between the adhesive and Plexi with associated sheering of the paint layer could also happen.

I think you'd be better off keeping anything at all from touching the paint. Framed, as Baer suggests, with a rigid backboard spaced well away from the paint would be my first thought.

If you really really need two sheets of Plexi joined, Jerry's edge welding idea using methylene chloride is a good one, but there will most likely be some paint sticking between the two sheets down the road.

Whatever you do, test first on mock-ups, and give them some stress tests to see what, if any, problems result.

Good Luck,

Rebecca
 
yes, heh heh, i guess i am one of those dreaded artists who refuses to use a frame...

oh no i said it! is that heresy on a framer's web post? i can change, i swear...

well, the issue is that i get a really nice optical effect from seeing the sides of the plexi. i dont want to lose that. i have thought about using a simple modified mirror clip to hang the pieces. this would definitely be the least intrusive.

the back is completely covered in paint, so using the weld-on glue would not work.

the purpose of laminating the plexi to the back would be to:

A. protect the surface
B. provide a stable surface to attach hanging hardware, in my case using weld-on to affix a cleat.

as per Hugh's suggestion of using acrylic medium to adhere the back piece to the painting, i would love to do this. keep it real simple. the only problem is that if i use a plexi backing, the acrylic medium never dries. putting a plexi backing is like putting the lid on a jar of paint. it is not exposed to the air, thereforew never dries.

if i knew of a good porous solid material that would let the paint dry i would definitely use it!

i have tried MDF, but i get discoloration that is visible through to the front.


the response to my problem has been great. all these suggestions give me much to think about and test. Thanks!!!

Sean
 
Yo pollu_sean (polution?), how big are you're pieces? If they're small what about UniFrames?

If semi big how about standoffs? The screw heads could be incorporated into the artwork. Follow this link

If they're huge how do you plan on keeping the plexi from flexing and knocking off all the paint?

You got me curious about your work, do you have a website where I could check it out? Thanks and good luck!
 
Bob, unfortunately no i don't have a website right now, but if you want i can email you some pics.

the surfaces are sanded before the paint is applied and you would be surprised how strong the bong is between the plexi and the acrylic paint. i have had to make repairs before and i am always surprised at how difficult it is to get the paint off.

the pieces range anywhere up to the size of a full 4 x 8 sheet of plexi.

thanks for the link. those standoffs look pretty cool. i think the edge grips would be a good solution if i decide to forego any kind of backing.

Sean
 
Originally posted by pollu_sean:
how strong the bong is
Yep, it's an artist from California!
 
If the edges of the sandwich are left open, there
should be significant drying there, immediately,
which should reach the center, eventually. The
acrylic is likely to warp, during the drying. The
best thing to do is to make a mock up, from scrap,
and watch what happens. There may be problems that
one can not forsee that show up in the mock up. If
the back is to serve as a hanging device, it should have bolts counter sunk in it, before it
is adhered, or acrylic blocks can be adhered to
its back with solvent.

Hugh
 
I like Hugh's suggestion of using all-acrylic materials, but share your concern about drying. A water-borne adhesive would eventually dry, but could support mold/mildew in the meantime. A solvent-based adhesive would dry more quickly, but may react with the paint, or the acrylic sheet, or both.

Rebecca eluded to another problem with her comment about shearing of the paint layer. And that's a problem you would face with ANYthing bonded to the back of the paint layer.

Acrylic expands & contracts with temperature changes. When your art "sandwich" is hanging on the wall, its face (in open air) would react more quickly to temperature changes than its back (against the wall).

When one side expands/contracts more quickly than the other, the result is a sort of rubbing action between the sheets, which could shear the paint layer. Yes, it is slight -- but constant -- and could severely damage the paint layer over time.

Of course your paint layer should be protected, but gluing anything directly to it is probably not a good answer.

How about having a shallow acrylic box built? You could have an acrylic fabricator miter the edges of your face-acrylic sheet, and bond acrylic "shadowbox" strips of about 1/4" to 1/2" depth to it. Then, after your painting is completed, you or he could bond the back-acrylic sheet to it, to finish the box. Only the outer edges would have to be un-painted.

In the event of a future need to disassemble the work, the back-acrylic could be cut away and replaced after paint repairs.

Check the archives for Superior Acrylics, a California company.
 
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