Opinions Wanted hazards of "cheap" customers

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KincadeOverdose

KincadeOverdose

True Grumbler
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
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88
Loc
Chicago
This has happened to me twice in the past month. I don't know if it's because of the "recession" or what, but it's really soul-crushingly annoying!
The first customer came in about three weeks ago with a newspaper article, featuring himself and his wife, all about how to save money (uh oh). He had brought in an old Nielsen metal frame that he wanted me use with a new mat. Of course the backing was cardboard. The article had three separate openings, and barely fit into his frame. I tried to explain how bad the spacing would look, but he was sure it would be fine. I tried to recommend drymounting the newspaper since it was already wrinkled...that was too expensive "couldn't we use the old backing?"
After explaining that the piece he was going to get would be wrinkled and jammed into the frame with about a 1/4" mat he still trusted that his idea would be fine.
When he came to pick it up he was not happy. He said that he "thought you guys were professional". What? I was so upset that he was questioning our quality! I could have made a great frame for his piece if he was willing to listen to the "professional".
The next customer came in yesterday to pick up a hockey jersey he had framed. When he placed the order he had several demands that he wouldn't waver on. The size had to be 32x40, the sleeves had to show the number and the logo on the shoulder (leading to awkward twisty arm syndrome), it had to be attached to the backing (no "hanger" frames), and of course he only wanted to spend $300 or less. The only way I can frame a hickey jersey for that price is if I use the 117 Nielsen profile with doubled spacers. I told him this usually doesn't work for hockey jerseys since they are so thick, but he thought it would be great ("as long as it's under $300, right?")
He picked it up and was angry that the sleeves looked weird and the frame wasn't "boxy" enough. He also questioned my "professionalism".
Ahh! I'm almost to a point where I think I'll turn away a sale if they won't listen to me and want me to do something I know will look bad at the end. It's not worth it to me to have to re-do these orders, and to have customers out there questioning our quality.:fire:
 
KincadeOverdose said:
I'm almost to a point where I think I'll turn away a sale if they won't listen to me and want me to do something I know will look bad at the end. It's not worth it to me to have to re-do these orders, and to have customers out there questioning our quality.:fire:
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Sorry this happened to you. It has happened to me as well, even though you very pointedly tell them how it won't work well. They must have this idea in their head that no matter what they demand of you, you will make it look really good, because you're the professional. :faintthud:

If someone demands the impossible, we now turn it down. Sometimes they listen to us, sometimes they walk. :shrug:
 
And all my customers have been reading in the papers that "haggling" is back. that retailers are starting to actually expect to haggle. (WHAT!!!)

So they dicker with the quoted price, ask if it can be "better",then pull out a gift certificate!

Funny CMP and my landlord don't expect me to haggle, and they don't take gift certificates!
 
I think you just answered your own question.

You are the professional and when a customer refuses to take your advice then you should politely refuse to do the work. It can be difficult to turn away any business during hard economic times but the damage to your reputation and the grief just isn't worth it.
 
What Dave said.

Turning them away or having them come back unhappy are essentially the same outcome, but without the aggravation.

Else, I'd make them sign something that they are responsible for the expected bad design....that alone might make them re think their stupidity.
 
This is why we stopped doing super cheap jobs: Once a man came in with about a dozen photos, various size snapshots. He wanted them loosely arranged and put in a readymade. When I tried to get him to do a mat or some dry mounting, the cost was an issue. He kept saying "it isnt a big deal. Just put them on a board and arrange them somehow. Whatever you come up with will be fine." He picked it up and took it home. We get a call from the wife, she HATED it. When I suggested that we only did what her husband wanted us to, she told us how disappointed he was in the result. (LIAR!!) So because HE didn't have the kahunas to tell his wife that we did what he ordered, she thinks we are the worst framers in the world.

It also just happened to my husband who is a carpenter. A friend of the family really wanted to present a gift to an elderly couple, a porch swing. She asked my husband to do it for her, but cheaply. Just slap it together, something simple. She offered him $100. So, he spent about an 8 hour day, putting together a simple design bench with drilled holes for the chains to hang it. Then he was asked to deliver it. When when the old man saw it, he said he didnt like where the holes for the chain were, and multiple other complaints, even tho it was a gift. Finally, the old man said, well you nevermind, I'll have my son fix it up. He's a carpenter!!! So my husband gets to be humiliated all for doing a favor for $100.

Moral of the story, just don't do it!!
 
The customers' expectations far exceeded yours, which implies a failure of communication in the design stage of the projects. Somehow, those customers gave you their orders thinking the framing they bought would be something other than what you sold.

For any transaction to be successful, the buyer and seller need to have the same understanding of the intended result, but that didn't happen for you.

It may be tempting to blame the problem on "cheap customers", but that does not serve the challenge of satisfying them and bringing them back in the future. Isn't that the goal?
 
Dave said:
You are the professional and when a customer refuses to take your advice then you should politely refuse to do the work. It can be difficult to turn away any business during hard economic times but the damage to your reputation and the grief just isn't worth it.
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So true! It should always be borne in mind that all the work we produce, even though it may be hanging on someone elses wall, is effectively an advertisement for our business.

One cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear. If something naff is the end result of poor choices on the part of the customer, any visitor to their home who sees that end result, and who is also told who the framer was will, IMO, lay the blame at the door of the framer, as it is doubtful that the customer will 'fess up to their insistence on having the travesty perpetrated in the first place! :rolleyes:

One invests a great deal of time, money, blood, sweat, and tears in building up a reputation for producing high-quality work; and as appreciation for the time and cost of quality craftsmanship wanes, it becomes tougher as time goes on. If one's reputation were to become tarnished, IMO it would cost far more than the nett profit from a few lost framing orders to rebuild it.

Over hear at least, and sad though it is to say, there are plenty of framers prepared to churn out substandard work (and not all of them reflect the lack of quality in their pricing). Let customers who want carp go to someone who's willing to produce carp.

Whether they want it or not, all potential customers who come to me for a quotation are provided with a professional service. If they choose not to avail of it, that's their decision.
 
I am the framer. I build frames for a living. They don't.

When it comes to construction and engineering, I make the call, not them. I tell them what's feasible. If they don't like it, they can take it to the craft store and let them screw it up.

I hate re-work because of poor communication.

Framer Phil
 
Kinkade, now I know where all my customers have been going!

Sorry to hear about those experiences...I feel for you.
 
Jim Miller said:
The customers' expectations far exceeded yours, which implies a failure of communication in the design stage of the projects. Somehow, those customers gave you their orders thinking the framing they bought would be something other than what you sold.

For any transaction to be successful, the buyer and seller need to have the same understanding of the intended result, but that didn't happen for you.

It may be tempting to blame the problem on "cheap customers", but that does not serve the challenge of satisfying them and bringing them back in the future. Isn't that the goal?
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Actually, and with all due respect, NO. These customers had unreasonable expectations and demands, even though the complications were explained very carefully. They persisted in maintaining their delusional expectations throughout. They will NEVER be happy. They will inflict their unhappiness on everyone, including the poor framer who takes on their work. We do NOT want them to come back to us, because the same thing will happen again and again. We want them to go to our competitors, and ruin their lives.
 
Put it in writing .. what to expect and what they requested... what you expect the end result to be... have them sign it ... !!!!!!! and reread it .. and SIGN IT!!
 
To Do or Not To Do that is the question

We recommend, we tell them it is not safe for the art work and we sometime will refuse. We also will write up a wavier not that it is legally binding but it make them think about it. I just open word type in what they have requested and why we advise against that course of action and then have them sign and date and we sign date it. This does not happen very often but if you tell them that you will need to write up a waiver stating that you are not recommending this type of framing, they will either actual think about what you have said reconsider or walk, it's no longer you telling them no it's them saying no a sight difference and you reputation is a bit more solid. once you have them sign the piece of paper they really are stuck, they can not say you did not tell me this or that.
Also I would invest in a virtual framer or a digital camera. When have an issue "it's up to us and what ever we choose would be great" I take a snap shot e-mail it to them and get an approval if they call write on the work order date time what was said or even better if they e-mail print out the e-mail and keep it with the work order.
In today's world better to pay it safe then not play at all.
 
I do think it's a communication issue. If I can tell that their expectations are unrealistic compared to my honest assessment of the probable outcome, I will say so. If they want me do do something I know they will be unhappy with, I just explain that our shop's policy (for the benefit and protection of both the business and the customers) is to follow certain minimal work standards which this request does not conform to. If they want something done that would obviously be harmful to the piece, I simply say that I can't and won't do it, explain why in simple but professional terms, and if necessary I tell them it would be a violation of the PPFA Code of Ethics.
:cool: Rick
 
HAHA, you get the cheap ones! I just had two ladies come in, buy my latest artists work, BEFORE I could even put it on the wall. AND they just came back and brought me a homemade lunch!

That was really nice, because before they came in the prior 3 customers haggled so harshly that I wasn't gonna be able to afford lunch.... I get the cheap ones too. They just get balanced out, usually, by random acts of kindness.
 
Next time, just tell them President Obama won't let you do it that way, and since he took away all your guns, you can't do anything about it.
 
PaulSF said:
... We do NOT want them to come back to us, because the same thing will happen again and again. We want them to go to our competitors, and ruin their lives.
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Maybe I should be envious. Trouble is, my competitors would probably appreciate the opportunity to win them over, just as I do when a new one comes in with something like "...that other framer done me wrong".

One framer's problem is another's opportunity, I guess.
 
We used to say "for some people, all their taste in their mouth".

I have customers who want to go the "cheap" route sometimes, too...okay, at least one a week...What I will do if they just won't listen and if they think that it can just be "thrown together" is sell them all the components...

Metal frame and HW (so they can at least put it together themselves)
or RM frame,
cut mat (1/2" border),
piece of FC or mnt brd backing and
a piece of scrap reg. glass that probably came out of some readymade (because we rarely have reg. glass in the shop)...

I make my money on materials and they get to find out why we get paid the "big bucks" -- because we can make a silk purse out of a sows ear! And my name's not on it and they can't blame me if it turns out carppy 'cause I just provided all the parts and look how great everything in my shop looks -- after all, it's just 4 sticks of wood or metal isn't it? snicker - snicker
 
Jim Miller said:
just as I do when a new one comes in with something like "...that other framer done me wrong".

One framer's problem is another's opportunity, I guess.
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Beware you may get what you ask for! I had a guy come in, his previous framer couldn't do the job right, and since I vaguely knew the framer's skills (from redo's) I believed him.

So I designed a $10,000 multiple shadowbox job, don't ask, but basically would have had to pour the plexi myself..

After 4 revisions and mockups from Small Corp I finally figured out the thing the previous framer couldn't do right was do the job for free. Because that's what he got out of me before he moved on to the next framer.
 
Bob Doyle said:
I finally figured out the thing the previous framer couldn't do right was do the job for free. Because that's what he got out of me before he moved on to the next framer.
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When I was in Denver we had a client like that. She was impossible to please. We finally "fired her" after losing too much money on an exercise in futility. She had come from another framer.

She went on to make the rounds of all the framers in the area, to finally end up trying to come back to us.

Foolishly, we tried again, with no better results, and she moved on to probably make the circuit once again. I know this happened having chatted with the other framers in the area...:icon9:

The third time she came back...we refused. :shutup:
 
After spending my life in this profession, one of the many "Truths" I have learned is:

The most demanding customers will also be the cheapest customers.

It's much like marrying someone for their money, your going to earn every penny of it.

You have to do some serious soul searching before working for these people, is it really worth it?

John
 
JRB said:
The most demanding customers will also be the cheapest customers. ... You have to do some serious soul searching before working for these people, is it really worth it?
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Not in my experience. :(
 
Bob Doyle said:
Beware you may get what you ask for! I had a guy come in, his previous framer couldn't do the job right, and since I vaguely knew the framer's skills (from redo's) I believed him.
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Big red flag there. Any time a customer tells you no other framer is good enough, or can do the job, or "understands her vision", whatever, it really means every other framer has fired her. Or him.
 
Well, all of your advice has made me realize that I just need to fire these customers! No-one's going to hear my side of the story when they see a jacked up hockey jersey on the wall and ask where he got it framed! I usually get customers to sign a waiver, but only if they insist that I alter their piece somehow in order for me to frame it. I think I'm going to extend it to cover jobs that I think are going to look wretched when they're done!
I suppose there could have been a communication error, but I said everything I could short of straight up refusing them. Next time I'll not be so desperate to hang on to this sort of customer. Obviously losing customers isn't preferable, but I'd rather save my reputation and gain sales that way, instead of lowering my standards to get any $20.00 that might come my way.:D
 
What is needed is a document that is the equivalent of signing yourself out of a hospital against medical advice (AMA). Call it AFA (against framers advice). It could be a very simple document that an attorney draws up, and binding in the same sense as the medical one.
Now there's something the PPFA could do for us that would be worth the membership fees.
 
We have cultivated a following on both ends of the budget spectrum. One way to help communicate the lower budget offerings is to have clear examples on the wall and on your web site with clear pricing. "For $300. you get a jersey framed like this. Additional options include..."

Customer expectations and our realistic solutions with regard to wavy prints and so on are written the the notes field and initialed by customers so we know we are both on the same page.

And yes, inevitably, some customers may not be satisfied with thier own design choices. But usually, I think if you are firm in communicating what will work and what will not, there are few misunderstandings. I find that if I am confident in saying, "That's an interesting idea, but it won't work in this case..." then they either give up the idea, change thier vision, or leave. They rarely leave due to design considerations because we manage to communicate a clear professional prespective.

I have three photos being returned tomorrow because of the way they were "placed in the mat." I have clear instructions to "cover the edge damage" in the notes field. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out after we have a little chat. New mats probably. No one is immune to this and all I can do is smile and do it over when necessary.
 
wpfay said:
What is needed is a document that is the equivalent of signing yourself out of a hospital against medical advice (AMA). Call it AFA (against framers advice). It could be a very simple document that an attorney draws up, and binding in the same sense as the medical one.
Now there's something the PPFA could do for us that would be worth the membership fees.
Click to expand...

And the guy that suggested the AFA form also said to have it signed in triplicate and the enc: section to include the initials UDC (under dust cover!) After getting the customer to sign it you should stick it to the back of the backing board, under the dust cover.

He also said that pulling out the form was enough to get the customer to realize he was serious about his suggestions, and that he had only had to ever stick one UDC. that when presented the form people got serious, asked why he was concerned and took him at his word.

But wouldn't it be nice to have that SOB PITA customr come into your shop, have them complain about the "poor job" the other framer did, then be confronted with a signed "release" as soon as you opened the dust cover to "better see the damage"!
 
Bob Doyle said:
But wouldn't it be nice to have that SOB PITA customr come into your shop, have them complain about the "poor job" the other framer did, then be confronted with a signed "release" as soon as you opened the dust cover to "better see the damage"!
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I've not used signed disclaimers yet, but there have been occasions when I've included explanatory notes under the backing board for the benefit of any framer that may work on a piece in the future. ;)
 
wpfay said:
What is needed is a document that is the equivalent of signing yourself out of a hospital against medical advice (AMA). Call it AFA (against framers advice). It could be a very simple document that an attorney draws up, and binding in the same sense as the medical one.
Now there's something the PPFA could do for us that would be worth the membership fees.
Click to expand...

That's best idea I heard in a long time!!
 
Paul I wish I could find the example that was handed out in the class. It was written in nice flowing legalese, to the extant that " the undersigned chose to opt out of the use of currently recognised conservation materials and practices. Instead opting to use instead the folling items. the undersigned acknowledges doing so against the recommendations of framer, on this date,".

Signed, filed, they get a copy and one gets taped inside the frame package.

With better legalese the abbreviation UDC enclosure looks important.
 
wpf said:
What is needed is a document that is the equivalent of signing yourself out of a hospital against medical advice (AMA). Call it AFA (against framers advice). It could be a very simple document that an attorney draws up, and binding in the same sense as the medical one.
Now there's something the PPFA could do for us that would be worth the membership fees.
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Also for those customers. When they start complaining and yelling and getting really obnoxious we could add a DNR clause.
 
wpfay said:
What is needed is a document that is the equivalent of signing yourself out of a hospital against medical advice (AMA). Call it AFA (against framers advice). It could be a very simple document that an attorney draws up, and binding in the same sense as the medical one.
Now there's something the PPFA could do for us that would be worth the membership fees.
Click to expand...

I think that's a great idea! It would be nice if there was an official document that 'all' framers in the US would use.
But, if the PPFA is not willing to do so, maybe we should all try to come up with some standard form, standard wording.
 
YOU told me the cat ATE them! Now you say you just tossed them. Some host you are.

But you're forgiven, Stolie's is OK.
 
DVieau2 said:
Has anyone ever died over a bad framing job? :icon11:

Doug
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define bad framing job.

Hanging a print on the ceiling above the bed, with glass instead of framer recommended plexi could kill, or cause serious harm! While it hasn't happened to me I would recommend slipping a little CYA form in the back of that frame job!
 
Ylva said:
I think that's a great idea! It would be nice if there was an official document that 'all' framers in the US would use.
But, if the PPFA is not willing to do so, maybe we should all try to come up with some standard form, standard wording.
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Here it is. Feel free to print this on your letterhead and use it freely.

I have listened to the framer's advice and have chosen not to take it. I understand that I may be unhappy with my choices but I authorize the framer to proceed based on my instructions (see attached).

I am basically a cheapskate and expect the impossible. Being the narcissist that I am, I will want to blame someone else. I will however, take full responsibility for my stubbornness.

I have no spatial, practical, color, or design sense.

I further understand that my children will mock me and anyone who enters my house and sees the result on my wall will hold me in contempt for my poor choices.

________________________
Name
________________________
Date
 
Doug Gemmell said:
Here it is. Feel free to print this on your letterhead and use it freely.

I have listened to the framer's advice and have chosen not to take it. I understand that I may be unhappy with my choices but I authorize the framer to proceed based on my instructions (see attached).

I am basically a cheapskate and expect the impossible. Being the narcissist that I am, I will want to blame someone else. I will however, take full responsibility for my stubbornness.

I have no spatial, practical, color, or design sense.

I further understand that my children will mock me and anyone who enters my house and sees the result on my wall will hold me in contempt for my poor choices.

________________________
Name
________________________
Date
Click to expand...


LOL!! Doug! I think we may have some of the same customers!! :D
 
We save ourselves some pain by insisting the customer come back and confirm the design before assembly.

For hockey shirts in frames too small I cut a mat from flawboard, fold the shirt, and insist they come and confirm before we sew.

The 10 family snapshots to go in the old aluminium frame with card board, I offer to cut a mat for them, nothing more. I imagine many of these mats are tossed when they try to put the whole thing together but I'v been paid for the mat.
 
evartpat said:
LOL!! Doug! I think we may have some of the same customers!! :D
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Oh yeah, harass poor ol doug, get in the car, proceed south on Broadway, right at 41st, left at Evergreen Way and in a few blocks, darken Pat's doorway!
 
Doug Gemmell said:
Here it is. Feel free to print this on your letterhead and use it freely.

I have listened to the framer's advice and have chosen not to take it. I understand that I may be unhappy with my choices but I authorize the framer to proceed based on my instructions (see attached).

I am basically a cheapskate and expect the impossible. Being the narcissist that I am, I will want to blame someone else. I will however, take full responsibility for my stubbornness.

I have no spatial, practical, color, or design sense.

I further understand that my children will mock me and anyone who enters my house and sees the result on my wall will hold me in contempt for my poor choices.

________________________
Name
________________________
Date
Click to expand...

Get behind me, Satan!!!!! ;) ;) :)
 
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