A customer was to hang a 25-40' mirror form their crown moulding. they have plaster walls and want "no nail holes."
I have no clue? Any ideas?
I have no clue? Any ideas?
hanking a mirror from Crown Moulding
- Thread starter MnSue
- Start date
Framerguy
PFG, Picture Framing God
I sure hope you forgot to hit the "shift" key when you printed those measurements!!!
I would say that, assuming the mirror is 25"x40", they stand a 50 50 chance of pulling down their crown moulding! Crown moulding is put up there for decoration, not to support mirrors and heavy stuff. I doubt seriously that the crown moulding is attached with anything more than finishing nails shot into the plaster with a random few maybe hitting a stud or header and that isn't nearly strong enough to hold the weight of the mirror plus a possibly very heavy frame. If they boxed in the crown moulding then they may stand a chance of getting it done depending on how they fastened the box and whether the carpenter knew that there was a mirror planned for hanging from it.
If they don't want holes in their plaster, maybe they would like a floor standing mirror? That would solve the handing problem which is going to be a tough one at best.
Good luck with it.
I would say that, assuming the mirror is 25"x40", they stand a 50 50 chance of pulling down their crown moulding! Crown moulding is put up there for decoration, not to support mirrors and heavy stuff. I doubt seriously that the crown moulding is attached with anything more than finishing nails shot into the plaster with a random few maybe hitting a stud or header and that isn't nearly strong enough to hold the weight of the mirror plus a possibly very heavy frame. If they boxed in the crown moulding then they may stand a chance of getting it done depending on how they fastened the box and whether the carpenter knew that there was a mirror planned for hanging from it.
If they don't want holes in their plaster, maybe they would like a floor standing mirror? That would solve the handing problem which is going to be a tough one at best.
Good luck with it.
My daughter and her husband have an old house (1916) with plaster walls. There is a "picture moulding" around all rooms about 12 inches down from the ceiling. This moulding was meant to hang picture frames. They have brass clips that hook on this moulding and all pictures hang down from these - the wires show. Many frame suppliers still stock these clips. This moulding would handle a framed mirror this size. Perhaps this is the moulding they are refering to rather than a crown at the top.
Look here: http://houseofantiquehardware.com/s...&partner=gpc&gclid=CIyhqtPdp4sCFQ8gSQodY1xFfw
If you look on the left of this webpage you will find the moulding and hanging cords.
Look here: http://houseofantiquehardware.com/s...&partner=gpc&gclid=CIyhqtPdp4sCFQ8gSQodY1xFfw
If you look on the left of this webpage you will find the moulding and hanging cords.
Bandsaw - that is exactly what I understand they were looking for. Thanks
As always, as I was typing the first thread - my store's doorbell ran....
people waiting....must finish posting...(that's why hanking a mirror - not hanging and the 24-40' vs inches!!! Oh well.)
Lately, my fingers and my mind work the same...badly!)
As always, as I was typing the first thread - my store's doorbell ran....
people waiting....must finish posting...(that's why hanking a mirror - not hanging and the 24-40' vs inches!!! Oh well.)
Lately, my fingers and my mind work the same...badly!)
Terry Hart cpf
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Hey, we stock those. Too bad you couldn't just drop by & pick some up. But you could just order them from United too.
j Paul
PFG, Picture Framing God
Whether or not it is a "picture moulding" or a "crown moulding" the fact remains that unless said moulding is attached with the correct fastener into solid frame work and not just into plaster or lathe there sitll could be a problem. How do you, they know how it is attached? When or if it becomes a problem, who's problem is it? Think about it, before you sell them the hardware to do it!
If you haven't done so yet, read this thread: http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=24737
If you haven't done so yet, read this thread: http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=24737
Framing Goddess
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Crown moulding, moulding hooks, hanging cord, heavy mirror... there is plenty of opportunity for failure this way.
I would want something like that MUCH more secure. Holes in walls are easy fixes.
edie the havespacklewilltravel goddess
I would want something like that MUCH more secure. Holes in walls are easy fixes.
edie the havespacklewilltravel goddess
Baer Charlton
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
John, I'm kind of surprised that you would post that link, and that there is nothing relating to "picture mould", but instead about a "nail" failing.
We probably sell the "S" hooks in the small and large. We sell a few boxes of the things every year... have for over 20 years... just when you think you have saturated the market.... someone else moves in.
In my sisters house she has a 32" x 50" beveled mirror in a 4" wide Ebony and Pink ivory frame, that I hung over 16 years ago... on that same wall and rail are 4 other frames.
We regularly hang 24x36" plate mirrors in heavy compo frames by the two wider hooks.
I can't speak for areas like Florida and Ohio where there is so much new and un-craftsman construction.... but I know that removing picture moulding in the Pacific North West is no where near as easy as ripping down crown or baseboard.
If crown moulding is done correctly, it is nailed into every stud with a 2-1/2" finishing nail. Somewhere around here I have a picture of my nephew hanging from a framing hammer that is hooked on the picture mould... but then he's the skinny scrawny doc that only weights about 145lbs.
We probably sell the "S" hooks in the small and large. We sell a few boxes of the things every year... have for over 20 years... just when you think you have saturated the market.... someone else moves in.
In my sisters house she has a 32" x 50" beveled mirror in a 4" wide Ebony and Pink ivory frame, that I hung over 16 years ago... on that same wall and rail are 4 other frames.
We regularly hang 24x36" plate mirrors in heavy compo frames by the two wider hooks.
I can't speak for areas like Florida and Ohio where there is so much new and un-craftsman construction.... but I know that removing picture moulding in the Pacific North West is no where near as easy as ripping down crown or baseboard.
If crown moulding is done correctly, it is nailed into every stud with a 2-1/2" finishing nail. Somewhere around here I have a picture of my nephew hanging from a framing hammer that is hooked on the picture mould... but then he's the skinny scrawny doc that only weights about 145lbs.
j Paul
PFG, Picture Framing God
2. And as for assuming that the crown/picture moulding is attached correctly, how can a framer know that without an inspection of same. Just make it clear/writing perhaps that the framer is not responsible for proper attachment or failure of crown/picture moulding.
If you don't care if your customer may hold you responsible for it or not, then forget everything I said.
Baer Charlton
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
What ever happened to accountablity?
We send the frame job out the door with two 20lb hangers stapled to to the wire. We show them the hooks, and explain why to use the two.....
We get the shattered piece back... the wire is bent in the center in a way that appears to have been over an 18 gauge brad...
The customer is embarassed "the dog hit it"..... nooooo the nail failed. And why are the two hooks still stapled to the wire???
When I drive down the street, I have reasonable reason to assume that everyone driving will stay in their lane and obey the traffic laws.
Picture moulding was a structural element of homes for over 300 years. It was not an appelation or folly placed for decorative purposes; it protected the integrety of the "key" lock of plaster to the fragile lath. Setting nails in lath is begging for a section of plaster the size of your torso to "unkey". Yes, holes can be patched and filled... and a patch job of a 2'x2' plaster wall can be very ugly when you get the bill. [Of course, that is IF you can find a plaster mason]
We send the frame job out the door with two 20lb hangers stapled to to the wire. We show them the hooks, and explain why to use the two.....
We get the shattered piece back... the wire is bent in the center in a way that appears to have been over an 18 gauge brad...
The customer is embarassed "the dog hit it"..... nooooo the nail failed. And why are the two hooks still stapled to the wire???
When I drive down the street, I have reasonable reason to assume that everyone driving will stay in their lane and obey the traffic laws.
Picture moulding was a structural element of homes for over 300 years. It was not an appelation or folly placed for decorative purposes; it protected the integrety of the "key" lock of plaster to the fragile lath. Setting nails in lath is begging for a section of plaster the size of your torso to "unkey". Yes, holes can be patched and filled... and a patch job of a 2'x2' plaster wall can be very ugly when you get the bill. [Of course, that is IF you can find a plaster mason]
j Paul
PFG, Picture Framing God
Baer had said: "I can't speak for areas like Florida and Ohio where there is so much new and un-craftsman construction.... but I know that removing picture moulding in the Pacific North West is no where near as easy as ripping down crown or baseboard."
I have to say that except for a few of the historic areas in my town, houses do not have picture frame moulding installed.
Newer homes with high ceiling are being built and some have crown/picture mouldings installed. Would I want to bet that the carpenters made sure they hit every stud! Not on your life! With air guns being used almost exclusively today, you can't even feel if you hit a stud or not!
If you want to be safe: Visual Inspection, if you are qualified. (Is your customer going to want to pay for your time to do that?) If it is installed as Baer describes, then no problem. If not, maybe there is a problem. You want to take your customers word for it fine. You want to take a hardline if it fails and tell your customer it is their problem, fine. As Baer suggest, people should take personal responsibility, but does that always happen? Just my 2 cents and I'm done!
Take the money and run?
Baer makes a couple of good points there.
1. Plaster walls present challenges for picture hanging, especially when weight is involved. That may be why the customer wants to avoid same.
2. If the "picture moulding" at the ceiling was properly installed for that purpose, as Baer suggests, and not haphazardly or as a decorative feature, then maybe it would support the large, heavy mirror. And if not, the guy who installed it so many years ago would be accountable...not you. Right?
Baer makes a couple of good points there.
1. Plaster walls present challenges for picture hanging, especially when weight is involved. That may be why the customer wants to avoid same.
2. If the "picture moulding" at the ceiling was properly installed for that purpose, as Baer suggests, and not haphazardly or as a decorative feature, then maybe it would support the large, heavy mirror. And if not, the guy who installed it so many years ago would be accountable...not you. Right?
Baer Charlton
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
2. If the "picture moulding" at the ceiling was properly installed for that purpose, as Baer suggests, and not haphazardly or as a decorative feature, then maybe it would support the large, heavy mirror. And if not, the guy who installed it so many years ago would be accountable...not you. Right?
There are plenty of places to point at Jim. If I install a #12 1/2" heavy duty screw-eye in a 15lb frame job and the one screw-eye pulls out because of the snotwood..... do you think LJ will pay the freight on the frame, glass, mat and damaged artwork....? I didn't think so either.
Which is why I use a 4-screw plate for snotwood.... then go pitch the sample so I never order it again.
My point about the new construction in the hot building areas such as Florida and Ohio is, I see pictures of big houses.... my guess would be that maybe in an upscale development they are installing poly crown... but not true picture rail. But I haven't been in any new construction in those areas, so I don't know.... but I would rather doubt it.
Picture mould exists strictly because of lath and plaster.. there is no other reason for it to be installed. If a break is desired on new houses with high ceilings [like my house was in SoCal] they installed a chair rail at the 8 foot level.
We had tall chairs in SoCal.