• Welcome! You will have to REGISTER a free account, before you can access the system. If you already registered, please LOG IN. (top right)
    If you can't remember your password, CLICK HERE to reset it. If you have questions, feel free to click the CONTACT US link at the bottom of this page.
Hoffmann Dovetail Joining System

Hanging Job

Bruce Papier

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Messages
904
We have a job involving 60 some pieces (they first asked about last September) which is due by the end of the month. The designer was just here to pick out the framing and seems to be under the impression we will be hanging the pieces in a pattern she has drawn up. Surprise! We don't normally do that.

Two questions. How do you charge for something like this and is there a computer program that calculates the distance from a set point where each item needs to go?
 

neilframer

PFG, Picture Framing God
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
8,151
Are all 60 pieces going on one wall or are they in groups on multiple walls?
 

neilframer

PFG, Picture Framing God
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
8,151
They are in three groups with varying numbers of paintings in each group.
I have done, and still do, many installations dealing with the designers and their "issues"...:rolleyes:
We do the framing and install in hospitals, restaurants, offices and homes.

I don't think that you will find a program that can work, especially if all of the pictures are different sizes.
Also, it's more about what is pleasing to the eye and not a computer.

Often the designers meet us at the installation and they will stage where they want the pictures and we can get answers to any questions.
Sometimes what I do, especially if there are many pieces and different sizes, is that I will measure the wall space and use painter's tape to tape off the wall space rectangle on the floor in front of the wall.
Then I can physically lay out the pictures on the floor for spacing and then just transfer that to the wall.
Sometimes you have to work around wall switches, fire alarms, motion sensors, etc.
I usually will find the center, hang the left and right outside and then fill in the middle but this can vary depending on the situation.

As far as charging, we have a set hourly rate for one person and then figure the time and multiply by the number of installers.
I've been framing and installing for 50 years and I still do it full time.
I hope this can help you a bit.
Good luck with your project.
 
Last edited:

Bruce Papier

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Thread starter
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Messages
904
Thanks for the tips.

I'm praying I get out of this job. The designer has a fairly specific way she wants these things hung and matching her design is going to take some doing. She sent us a diagram she generated on her computer and I'm sure she doesn't want us to vary from it.
 
FrameReady Special Offer - Call 888-281-2202

Shayla

WOW Framer
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
31,696
Thanks for the tips.

I'm praying I get out of this job. The designer has a fairly specific way she wants these things hung and matching her design is going to take some doing. She sent us a diagram she generated on her computer and I'm sure she doesn't want us to vary from it.

If you want to get out of it, would it work to connect her with a contractor? Sometimes, just telling them that's what you do, and giving them contact info. can help. Perhaps you could frame it as, 'We use contractors to hang. You're welcome to pay us a middleman fee, or work directly with them.' If she really wants you to do it, perhaps you could hire one to come along.
 

cjmst3k

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
4,388
I'm praying I get out of this job.

It doesn't sound like you signed up for the hanging.
You can let them know, and maybe find a referral for them. Or price the installation so high, they have to go with someone else.
 

cjmst3k

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
4,388
I'm referring a single painting hanging out (paying for it myself) because moving a 6' x 6' six-figure painting is not within my wheelhouse.

Its ok to say you don't do hanging. I only do it when someone is buying a painting that's over 1k, and that's because it helps sell the paintings.
 

wpfay

Comfort Badger
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 1, 2000
Messages
12,183
If you don't have the insurance to work in other people's homes or in commercial settings you are putting yourself and the homeowner/corporation at liability risk.
Sub contract to an installer, or pass on the job. My experience is that most installers that are worth hiring are booked out a month or so.
Nice of the designer to give you so much lead time.
 

Nikodeumus

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
760
I have turned away occasional requests for doing installations for all the reasons stated above.
- I have no experience with it, other than my own home.
- I have no staff or other personnel to do it
- I am not insured to do it
I agree it's better, in the long run, to steer the designer to someone who is experienced and insured.

Especially for someone who has an exact plan in mind.
That will be a pain in your keester to try to meet their demands in something you aren't familiar with.
You will likely spend many more hours than expected just trying to deal with unexpected details.
No one is an expert in every possible aspect relating to displaying art.
 
LifeSaver Cloud from LifeSaver Software, Inc.

David Hewitt

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
464
I feel you should always have a solution for your customers needs.

I get so disappointed when I pay for services that will not do the job completely.
Examples, my 90 year old mother, hiring someone to rake leafs but don't do bagging or haul away. Repairing some rotted wood but can't paint it. Deliver a washer and dryer and not install them.(Yes, you should never assume, but really)

I believe a customer deserves complete service start to finish, and if I can't handle it we will find someone that will. (And fees should be upfront)

I bought new tires for my truck last year, ($1200} I payed, went to my get my truck, and there are four tires in the back. I said I don't want them. Thats are policy sir you have to dispose of them yourself. We can dispose of them for you for for an additional $120 dollars. (Big grin on his face} I had to get permission from the county, take them 40 miles away and could only do that once a year and allowed 4 tires max per year. (I have 4 vehicles, and several trailers. I'm 70 and have bought a lot of tires in my time, never had that happened before or after.
 

Nikodeumus

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
760
I feel you should always have a solution for your customers needs.

I get so disappointed when I pay for services that will not do the job completely.
Examples, my 90 year old mother, hiring someone to rake leafs but don't do bagging or haul away. Repairing some rotted wood but can't paint it. Deliver a washer and dryer and not install them.(Yes, you should never assume, but really)

I believe a customer deserves complete service start to finish, and if I can't handle it we will find someone that will. (And fees should be upfront)

I bought new tires for my truck last year, ($1200} I payed, went to my get my truck, and there are four tires in the back. I said I don't want them. Thats are policy sir you have to dispose of them yourself. We can dispose of them for you for for an additional $120 dollars. (Big grin on his face} I had to get permission from the county, take them 40 miles away and could only do that once a year and allowed 4 tires max per year. (I have 4 vehicles, and several trailers. I'm 70 and have bought a lot of tires in my time, never had that happened before or after.
I can see your point David, not arguing against it at all. You are right, full service is great when you can find it. But how often does that actually happen?

My thought was this... There are a lot of aspects related to many kinds of services (in this case the picture framing industry), it's unusual (at least I think?) that all people in any given service are involved from start to finish in every possible iteration of said service.

I don't know anybody in my small region who does on-site installations. Does that mean nobody does? Probably someone does.
I just don't know who they are. I don't know all the services that every other frame shop in my region offer. Should I? I don't think so.

Maybe it's because I am a small, single-person shop, with a lot of work already lined up. I don't need to spend time, solving someone else's problem. To me, that's just adding an unnecessary third party.

Yes for sure, if a framer has contacts in the industry that could help the client, by all means, follow up an that. That's good service.
And I do frequently refer people to others who do tasks I am not equipped to deal with.

I realize your point wasn't necessarily that a shop should provide all services, but that they should be able to provide helpful information.
But, It doesn't make sense to me to spend time searching the internet or making phone calls trying to solve a problem that I am not equipped to deal with when the customer can do that for themselves for free. Especially since I am not likely going to ask many of the questions pertinent to that customer's particular needs.
In the case of the OP: Do I do installations? NO. Do I know anybody who will install a large number of frames in a complex arrangement. NOPE!

I don't think it's reasonable to expect all shops that do custom framing to also do everything else related to the industry.

If I may borrow your tire example...Does your tire place manufacture, install, AND recycle the tires. Start to finish of the tires lifecycle? Not likely.
A picture frame has a life cycle. Some framers may be involved in that life cycle from raw lumber, through design and construction, and finally to installation. But I don't think that's the majority of frame shops.

Having just blown all that hot air, I will admit that compared to many others here I am far less experienced.
I'm willing to concede that I may be completely off base on this.

To sum up: "Be helpful, but it's OK if you don't know everything."
Just my 2 cents.
 

Dave

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Messages
13,355
I do installations all the time on my day off. Just installed 20 paintings at a residence this past Monday. What was beautiful is that it was all family art painted by my relatives at my brother's new retirement home. I gave him a family rate, but he insisted on paying my normal fare. A few weeks ago I installed 50 pieces in grid patterns for a client. The job would've been a nightmare if I didn't pick up the work and reinstall the hanging hardware with BeeHive Hangers. She has 40 more pieces to hang down the line when her theater room is finished

I charge $ 60.00 an hour if it's just me and $ 100.00 an hour if there are two involved... usually work with my youngest son who is a natural at it.
 

Nikodeumus

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
760
I do installations all the time on my day off. Just installed 20 paintings at a residence this past Monday. What was beautiful is that it was all family art painted by my relatives at my brother's new retirement home. I gave him a family rate, but he insisted on paying my normal fare. A few weeks ago I installed 50 pieces in grid patterns for a client. The job would've been a nightmare if I didn't pick up the work and reinstall the hanging hardware with BeeHive Hangers. She has 40 more pieces to hang down the line when her theater room is finished

I charge $ 60.00 an hour if it's just me and $ 100.00 an hour if there are two involved... usually work with my youngest son who is a natural at it.

You have all the qualifications I referred to in an earlier post:
-you have experience
-you have another person when needed
-I assume you are insured as it's a service you are providing as a business
Check, check and check 👍
I need to find somebody like you in my town to refer people to.
 

David Hewitt

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
464
Nikodeumus, I get it, many are not interested in instalations.

Dave, we do it all at our shop. We charge $100 per hour per person, plus equipment rentals, trucks, scaffolding, scissor lifts, cranes, what ever. We have background checks for work in schools, government facilities, mental facilities what ever is required.
I have learned a lot at WCAF. Rob Markoff classes on difficult installations is a must if you decide to get in to this on a large scale.

Sometimes on very large mirrors, (especially if it has holes for lighting, very fragile) we will install the frame at the glass company and their crew will do the delivery and installation.
 
Beauty, Brawn, and Brains: Wizard Z1 CMC

Nikodeumus

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
760
Nikodeumus, I get it, many are not interested in instalations.

Dave, we do it all at our shop. We charge $100 per hour per person, plus equipment rentals, trucks, scaffolding, scissor lifts, cranes, what ever. We have background checks for work in schools, government facilities, mental facilities what ever is required.
I have learned a lot at WCAF. Rob Markoff classes on difficult installations is a must if you decide to get in to this on a large scale.

Sometimes on very large mirrors, (especially if it has holes for lighting, very fragile) we will install the frame at the glass company and their crew will do the delivery and installation.
:icon21: Thinking about the logistics of all that makes my head spin :icon21:
I'll keep to my little corner, leave those big jobs to you :thumbsup:
 

Ylva

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Support Team
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
15,702
I’m a one woman shop. Wish I could offer installations but I rarely get the request. I would not have the know how.
I need a Dave nearby as well, I’d be happy to refer!
 

Dave

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jun 11, 2004
Messages
13,355
What I've found is that when you provide this value-added service and people welcome you into their homes, they not only become a customer for life, but a friend too.
 

framah

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Mar 15, 2001
Messages
8,944
..and sometimes you get cookies!!!
 
Rian Fabrication Services  www.rianfabrication.com
Advertise on the G, a forum for framers only
Top