Handy dandy website

Well I was doing research on a project that will end up looking like this.


The back of the pieces look like this.


So I was thinking about using the holders to hang the pieces but attach velcro to the back to keep them from falling during transportation. I need to glue the velcro to the back of the painted plaster. So I found that website.
Thanks, Jay.

This is a very handy website to have- I glue glass scrap to, well, just about anything!

I'm sure it has nothing to do with your new quote. ;)
now what selection would mats come under?

Great website, Jay! Isn't that slate, on the back view? With the little holes, it looks a lot like an old slate shingle. The house I grew up in had slate shingles.
Originally posted by elsa:
now what selection would mats come under?

Elsa, that would be paper.

Unless you're using fabric mats. Then they'd be fabric on the front and paper on the back.

That IS a cool site. The trick now is to avoid the temptation to go out and buy every adhesive listed "just in case."
That website might be useful, but it could also be misleading.

Most adhesive bond problems have nothing to do with the adhesive. That is, when a glued bond fails, it's usually one of the surfaces that fails, not the glue itself. Ask me how I know that.

For example, if a framer uses Gorilla Glue to attach a 3 lb. metal object to a matboard (reinforced from behind, of course), and the bond fails, we would probably find the matboard's top-surface paper fibers still securely attached the the glue. In this case the matboard's surface fibers simply shredded away from the rest of the board. The glue did not fail.

Also, if one surface has any sort of fugitive coating on it, the bond would be weakened. For example, lubricating or preservative oil on a metal object; or skin oil on a plastic object.

As some of you know, I avoid relying on a glued bond to hold against any kind of stress. Gravity is the most common kind of stress, and it is related to weight, as well. Instead, I suggest using a mechanical fastener whenever possible, which does not rely on adhesive to carry the load.
Random thoughts on mounting with glue:

If a glue bond is secure enough to be reliable, then it is almost certainly irreversible, which makes it wrong for preservation mounting of any collectible thing.

Most framers who mount with glue do it not because it's the best way, which it probably is not, but because 1) they don't know of a better way, or 2) saving minutes is more important to them than creating the most secure mount.
Jim this is twice you've made generalizations about a framer doing something because they are incompetent.

There is a third obvious reason why framers mount with glue.

3) It’s simply the best method for the job.

I used this website to find out the best way to attach fabric to plywood. They recommended 3M-77. It worked like a charm! On my test piece I shredded the fabric trying to remove it. So I saved money and time. I guess I'm just one more in a long line of incompetent framers.
I don't think Jim meant any harm. I think he's just trying to inform us on ways around using glue... which in my opinion is a great thing for framers to know. I feel that it never hurts to know other ways to do things even if glue may be the preferred method of mounting. I admit that though I think the website is really neat, I don't use glue on anything either. I think glue can be useful in some things like fabric wrapped mats, but if there is a reversable solution for mounting that holds extremely well, than great I'll take it!
Well just wanted to offer my two cents...good luck with your framing job and please post a picture when it is done!!! I love the sample!
I plan to use the Glue Website to add to my knowledge of glues - I glue things every day - broken things that customers bring to me - like a brass blade letter opener that the blade broke off from the agate handle. I was planning to use JB Weld and that is exactly what the website recommended for metal to stone.

I would never use JB Weld to glue any framed item to its substrate! I'll stick, ahem, with gel medium!!!

Heck, sometimes I even use SILICONE - but never INSIDE of a FRAME!!! Nice caulk for the tile in the shower stall, though - especially that new GE II!!
Framer---why don't you use silicone inside a frame?
I have only used it once inside a frame,just cuz I couldn't figure anything else to use. So now am just wondering why not?
Angie I know Jim is harmless and his opinions on the topic are always welcome. But it’s a bit much to say that anybody who uses corners or glues are dumb and/or lazy. If a dumbski uses photo corners what is to be assumed of a framer that uses drymount tissue (gasp)?

Anyway I have been asked to build a gag gift. It’s a long story but I have to simply frame a collection of keys. They are not nor will they ever be valuable. Price is at a huge premium and I have been given complete carte blanche to do what needs to be done to save money. I'm not sure how I'm going to mount them but I will likely hop back on the impenticy train and take the easy way. TOOOT TOOOT.
Elsa, silicone is only used to glue the Velcro to the back of free corner samples or for mounting Thomas Kin**** prints.

I myself have only used it inside of frames maybe 300-400 times, but I am surely going to framer's h*ll for my sins.

My first clue that this was a bad idea almost certainly came from The Grumble (after 24 years of framing) and - in all probability - from Jim Miller, so I don't believe his pestering is ever misplaced.
Ron, Ron! Testify brother! I'll bet you'll be forgiven.

And about my previous post, I will likely climb on the "INCOMPENTICY TRAIN" long before I do any " impenticy train". :D Where was my spell checker on that one?

Carry on!
Ya know Ron - I have never found silicone any good for glueing velcro onto corner samples! Fails after a couple of years! Gotta hand it to those new self-adhesive Vs that are around now!
Originally posted by Jay H:
...it’s a bit much to say that anybody who uses corners or glues are dumb and/or lazy. If a dumbski uses photo corners what is to be assumed of a framer that uses drymount tissue (gasp)?...
Jay, I agree that it would be "a bit much" to say that, and I did not. "Dumb" and "lazy" came from your keyboard, not mine.

If you didn't like my original words, then "unaware" and "rushed" would better fit, and those words describe all of us on occasion. Methinks you protest too much.

Every mounting alternative, including corner mounts and every type of glue, has a place in our work. "Dry mount tissue (gasp)", too. I use them myself.

Perhaps the point was not clear: Those are products often misused by framers. Not by all framers, and not all the time -- but often enough that nearly all of us have seen the failures come into in our shops -- even if they didn't go out of our shops.

If you disagree, I'd like to consider your reasoned opinion, if you'd like to share it.

PS: Where's Captain English when we need him/her? I think it's supposed to be incompetency, or maybe incompetence.
I don't wanna protest. You're right!

Just some completely random quotes from this "misleading website"

"All glues work best when aided with a physical attachment. When ever possible the combination of glue and a screw, nail or staple, a glue and a joint, a glue and stitching or binding, will guarantee a successful bond."

"Any glue is only as strong as the weakest material in the bonding union. There is no point in using a glue stronger than the materials you are bonding."

"Always use the least toxic material that meets your bonding requirements."

If I didn't know better, I'd say that a framer wrote this!
Originally posted by Jay H:
...quotes from this "misleading website"...
That's good advice, for as far as it goes, but it's a bit too general to save us, I think.

Here's a scenario that illustrates how the site, as I said before, "could also be misleading":

Mr. Customer brings in a signed hockey puck for framing, which he bought on-line for several hundred dollars. He perceives the puck to be an important collectible.

Mr. Framer proposes to glue the puck to a nice suede matboard, not knowing a better way to mount it. Mr.F is surely an expert, so Mr.C agrees.

Mr. Framer checks the Handy Dandy website for "Rubber to Paper" and is advised to use contact cement, either Barges or 3M-77. But wait! This is suede board -- no problem; "Rubber to Fabric" gives the same advice.

Mr. Framer uses 3M-77 regularly for mounting, and he knows it to be a strong glue. So he masks and sprays that on both surfaces, being careful as always to follow instructions printed on the can. The puck is stuck as planned.

Over time, gravity's pull loosens the suede flocking's glued fibers from the board, and the solvent-based contact cement weakens, too. A couple of years after the framing, a contractor hired to paint the room takes the frame off the wall & bumps it on the sofa. The frame is OK, but Oooops. The hockey puck fell off.

I'd say the site's advice was misleading to the framer in this case, wouldn't you?

And what happens now? Mr. customer sees the back of his hockey puck covered with suede mat fuzz and decides to take that failed mount to a better framer for repairs.

Of course Mr. Framer, who made that mount with the best of intentions, thinks the puck is still stuck ten years later. He still swears by his contact cement mounts, but he'll never see Mr. & Ms. Customer again.
I just had a good example of a poor framing job come in. My customer has a lace piece of the "Last Supper" that she had framed a few years ago. She brought it to me because she wants a different color put behind it. We took it apart and discovered it had been mounted with some sort of glue. It appears to be an aggressive glue because in one corner you can see the blue color from the matboard attached to the lace.

I advised her that I was not able to lift it up for her. She said she would do it herself. My thought was it would tear easily since it is lace, it is glued all the way around the perimeter. She says it doesn't have enough monetary value to her to have a conservator repair it for her but it does have a great deal of sentimental value since it was purchased on a trip in England. So, my solution was to leave the lace down on the matboard and we are going to cut a mat with an opening to cover most of the color she wanted to change. She will have to live with the blue that will still show under the lace. She was grateful that I came up with a solution. She is really mad at herself for not making sure it was treated better in the first place. I told her most clients don't know how a piece should be handled, it is up to us the professionals to treat her items properly. She said that made her feel better. At least the piece is salvageable........

I didn't post this to poo-poo your site Jay, but to illustrate Jim's point. There are good framers and bad framers. The good framers will know how to include their own additional info when choosing glues from that site. The bad ones won't factor in all the pertinent details but select a glue from that site and feel fully satisfied they made a good decision gluing down Mrs. so and so's lace from England........

So, don't take it wrong Jay, You know I think you da man, but there isn't enough detail in that site to help an unskilled framer make competent decisions. If you know the difference that is a totally different thing.
That is a very plausible scenario. I think it's up to the framer to explore a number of sources for information prior to deciding on the proper approach for a given mounting need. I have learned a lot about non-invasive mounting methods right here on the Grumble, as well as from trade magazine articles and seminars.
That said, there are many scenarios in life- many of which, believe it or not, have nothing to do with framing- in which the need to use an adhesive of some kind arises. The website in question is a handy reference for finding the proper one. It seems not to be beholden to one manufacturer or another, and I do like its approach of recommending the least toxic or invasive product that will work for a particular need, as well as stressing that the "chain is only as strong as its weakest link", as pointed out in the puck example.
Often the kinds of considerations one needs to make in framing spill out into other of our activities, helping us take the most non-invasive path. You have to admit, though, sometime situations just call for pulling out the industrial strength solution, and I'm happy to have that website to help me pick it.
:cool: Rick

P.S.: Wouldn't it be nice if customers always came back to us to correct somthing that goes south down the road? It would help us learn from past mistakes, as well as giving us an opportunity to show how eager-to-please we are in correcting the problem. Unfortunately, as Jim pointed out, we may never know what happened or get the chance to correct it...and, as we know, it's harder to overcome the negative effects of something that reflects poorly on us (even if we aren't even aware of the situation), than it is to buck up and do the right thing when we are given the opportunity.
For shadowboxes and things I something like "Mounting objects is not an exact science. There some guess and trial that takes place. If anything shifts, falls, or specks occur (especially dark suede), please bring them back and let me fix it. It doesn’t happen often, but when it does I'm always glad to fix it."

I hope this works because it’s the truth.

I'm gonna guess that some people are embarrassed to bring something back they are unhappy with. Its actually easier to go someplace else and act like your offended. I try to make them understand right up front that things go wrong and they should have no fear brining it back for any reason.
That's a reasonable approach, Jay. Three-dimensional object mounting might be the most technically-demanding work we do. We all make an occasional mistake, and most customers will forgive us, so long as we're anxious to make it right. Also, they must feel, all along, that we were competent to do the job at hand in the first place.

In the hypothetical scenario on page 1, the framer didn't just use the wrong glue. He shouldn't have used glue at all, because:

1. No glue can be depended upon to penetrate the fibers of the board enough to hold that weight securely for the long term.

2. Gluing the puck represents a permanent change of condition, reducing its collectible value.

It's important for framers to have enough information and knowledge to make the right decisions.

I don't mean to diminish the usefulness of the web site suggesting adhesives. It is great for consumers who don't have a clue about where to start, and it's a good check for framers, too. But I think framers need more specialized knowledge than could be given there, in order to do professional work.
Well, this sure changes my plans for today! I am working on a project that includes fastening autographed guitar picks to matboard. I had been intending to use some sort of glue or silicone.
Should I try something else?
Thanks, Sam
Were they autographed by Eric Clapton or by Joe Blow?

Yeah, I'd try something else. They must mean something to somebody or you wouldn't be framing them.

If you have access to a CMC, you could cut pick-shaped sink mats for the picks.

Or you could use tulle (pronounced "tool") in a color similar to the picks. Cut holes behind the picks (and smaller than the picks,) gather a little piece of tulle around each pick, pull the extra tulle through the hole and secure from the back. Do a search on the forum for "tulle."

Warning: You get tulle from the bridal department of you favorite fabric store, so expect some odd looks as you browse. Also, don't expect the clerk to act interested when you explain what you're using it for.*

OR, Jim Miller/Mylar describes a coin/medal mount using clear film that would probably work nicely with picks as well. Do another search for "coin" and "Mylar."

BTW, Jim Miller has done two presentations on some of these techniques in Wisconsin in recent history. One was at a PPFA chapter meeting at Lambeau Field. (What a COOL place for a meeting!) The other was at Evald Moulding in Watertown. (Also, a cool place for a meeting.) Keep your eyes open for opportunities like these.

*The last time I went tulle shopping, my daughter was with me. After I lectured the teenage clerk for 15 minutes about the many fabulous uses for the stuff, Sarah took me aside and whispered, "Dad, I promise you, she DOESN'T care."
Hold the presses. I'm already having some second-thoughts about the tulle.

Tulle can be somewhat abrasive and I'd be a bit concerned about the signatures rubbing off. Guitar picks aren't exactly a premium writing surface.

I'd have less concern about a clear film wrap.

Curse you, Jim Miller! Life was so much simpler (except the lawsuits) when we could just glue everything down! Ignorance is bliss, but it's still ignorance.
Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
...Curse you, Jim Miller! Life was so much simpler... (except the lawsuits) when we could just glue everything down! Ignorance is bliss, but it's still ignorance.
Please accept my most humble apologies, Ron. But it's not my fault. It's Hugh's and Rebecca's fault.

But thanks for placing me in such good company. :D
Thank you for taking the time to email with suggestions on my pick project. I cant say that I am aware of a group of people that are as helpful to others in the same line of work as the fine folks that utilize this website.
Jim Sampson

PS Ron had mentioned you did presentations in Green Bay and Watertown. Anything in the near future?
I told her most clients don't know how a piece should be handled, it is up to us the professionals to treat her items properly.

The sad thing is, people go to the picture framer in the first place BECAUSE they assume the framers are the professionals. Sadly, there are plenty of framers out there that don't know better. I'm sure we've all seen evidence of that at one time or another. :(