I have been framing for almost 10 years - and recently had my first trip to the ER. I cut a large lite of glass, cleaned both sides and was putting it in the frame when it just shattered. I was wearing cotton gloves, but received a deep cut which required stitches. My question is, could the glass have been brittle? It was a 36"x48" piece of conservation reflection control which I cut to 32"x42". I didn't do anything differently that I normally do; now trying to muster my courage to try again or wondering if I should wimp out and use acrylic...
Question Handling glass
- Thread starter TopHat
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j Paul
PFG, Picture Framing God
Sorry about your accident. 32x42 I don't think is really to big. The problem is that once scored and snapped the glass becomes prone to running from even a minute edge fracture. Did you seam the edges?
One tip I suggest is, moving the glass in the upright position from your cutter and putting it into the frame while standing up and then laying the frame with glass down into the horz. position.
One tip I suggest is, moving the glass in the upright position from your cutter and putting it into the frame while standing up and then laying the frame with glass down into the horz. position.
The Gilded Lily
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
I'm really sorry to hear of your injury and glad it wasn't any worse. We decided many years ago that 32x40 is the largest lite of glass that we would handle and use. Anything over that size, in either direction, would be acrylic only. When we explain this to our clients and the reasons, we have gotten absolutely no resistance. I think that it's all in how you present it: their safety, our safety, the person sitting on the sofa's safety, the art's safety, weight, transporting, etc. Since we only use Conservation Clear and Museum glass, it's not hard to justify the properties and advantages of UV acrylic.
Here's hoping you heal quickly.
Conservation Reflection Control is not a low-iron glass product, so it is fairly ductile, and brittleness probably was not a factor. A tiny nick or chip on an edge of the glass could make only the slightest deflection cause it to break. It happens.
John is right; seaming the glass edges is a good way to avoid breakage from edge fissures, but even that is not an absolute prevention. Avoiding deflection of the sheet is another good idea, as is taking the upright glass straight from the cutter to the frame propped upright. Once in the frame, all edges of the glass are supported and deflection is much less likely.
Conservation Reflection Control is not a low-iron glass product, so it is fairly ductile, and brittleness probably was not a factor. A tiny nick or chip on an edge of the glass could make only the slightest deflection cause it to break. It happens.
John is right; seaming the glass edges is a good way to avoid breakage from edge fissures, but even that is not an absolute prevention. Avoiding deflection of the sheet is another good idea, as is taking the upright glass straight from the cutter to the frame propped upright. Once in the frame, all edges of the glass are supported and deflection is much less likely.
PicturedFramer
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I agree with Jim. Putting the glass into the frame vertically for that size is the safest.
Using cotton gloves are the not the best for handling large pieces of glass, they have a tendency to slip on the smooth surfaces. I use industrial rubber gloves myself, they grip better and offer better protection from cuts and nicks. I think the sheer weight of that size glass without support on all sides is what did it in. Get back on the horse.
Using cotton gloves are the not the best for handling large pieces of glass, they have a tendency to slip on the smooth surfaces. I use industrial rubber gloves myself, they grip better and offer better protection from cuts and nicks. I think the sheer weight of that size glass without support on all sides is what did it in. Get back on the horse.
stcstc
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
if you take it from the cutter and put in the frame, when does it get cleaned?
If you're wearing gloves when you handle the glass, it should remain clean, but it's always a good idea to clean it. Clean the inside surface of the glass when the frame is laying flat on the table with the glass in it. Clean the outside surface after fitting.
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That's interesting, Jim. I've read in the past that other framers haven't needed to clean glass, but I've never once had a piece of TV glass straight from the pack that didn't need cleaning! It's always got a misty appearance and streakiness!
Tophat,
Handling glass can be dangerous if it's not handled properly. I sorry that you got yourself wounded.
I regularly put glass that size and larger into a frame, by standing the glass on one edge, lift the glass and place the edge into the rebate/rabbit, then by supporting the opposite side with both hands a little in from the ends, lower it down into the frame. I usually drop it the last half inch.
As other people have said, putting the glass into the frame in a vertical attitude is the safest way, but it's very difficult to clean the outside of the glass properly if it's in the frame!
Handling glass is a matter of experience and confidence!
stcstc
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
i agree, glad its not just me that thought glass is never clean of of the box for me either
framah
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
This is most definitely not how to do it!
Now... you might do it this way but the rest of the free world probably does it the normal way which is to lay it on the table, clean that side, place the art onto the glass and then flip it over and clean that side and then place the frame over the package and flip and pin.
By placing the art on the glass as soon as it is clean it lessens the chance of any dust boogers from drifting down onto it.
If you are trying to clean the glass while in the frame you will definitely not be able to get it clean to the very edge on either side.
When you bring the glass over to the table...vertically.. you rest it against the edge of the table so a few inches are out past the edge and then lower it down using the edge of the table as a support.
I've never had a piece break this way no matter how large.
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I do it pretty much that way ^^^^ but I don't place the art on top after cleaning one side and then flip over and clean the other side - I don't want the art anywhere near the glass when it's being cleaned, I just flip it over, it got on the bench one side down, no problem reversing the procedure ... then put the art on top, flip the lot over, drop the frame over, flip over complete and sort the back out - flumbs permitting.
Anyway, 'the art' could be something 3-dimensional that requires a rebate spacer etc etc. Full sheets and larger cut lites are handled with rubberised Kevlar gloves ... or is that kevlarised rubber gloves?
Anyway, 'the art' could be something 3-dimensional that requires a rebate spacer etc etc. Full sheets and larger cut lites are handled with rubberised Kevlar gloves ... or is that kevlarised rubber gloves?
stcstc
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
same as above
deff dont want art near glass when being cleaned
deff dont want art near glass when being cleaned
framah
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
By putting the cleaned side of the glass right onto the art you isolate that side from the environment. When you clean one side and then flip it over and clean the other side, you expose that first side to minute "stuff" that can stay on the glass when you finally merge with the art and frame.
While the glass is laying on the art package, you can spray on the glass in the middle of the glass and then place the paper towel...or whatever... into that puddle and then work it to the outside of the glass and always rub away from the edge or along the edge never in from the edge so the cleaner doesn't wick under. You shouldn't have any tiny puddles of cleaner on the glass by the time you are ready to head out to the edges.
While the glass is laying on the art package, you can spray on the glass in the middle of the glass and then place the paper towel...or whatever... into that puddle and then work it to the outside of the glass and always rub away from the edge or along the edge never in from the edge so the cleaner doesn't wick under. You shouldn't have any tiny puddles of cleaner on the glass by the time you are ready to head out to the edges.
j Paul
PFG, Picture Framing God
Just goes to prove there is more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.
The OP was asking about the safety of using and cutting a piece of glass of a somewhat large nature. I still stand by the statement that moving it while holding it vertical and putting it into the frame the same way is the safest. As far as cleaning it goes that wasn't part of the question but it can be cleaned while in the vertical position before placing in the frame if needed. ( I find that the way / where I store my TV glass that it rarely needs cleaned if wearing gloves - about all I do is blow/brush it off )
If cleaning the glass on top of the art before frame is placed on there are a couple of cautions that I would warn about.
The OP was asking about the safety of using and cutting a piece of glass of a somewhat large nature. I still stand by the statement that moving it while holding it vertical and putting it into the frame the same way is the safest. As far as cleaning it goes that wasn't part of the question but it can be cleaned while in the vertical position before placing in the frame if needed. ( I find that the way / where I store my TV glass that it rarely needs cleaned if wearing gloves - about all I do is blow/brush it off )
If cleaning the glass on top of the art before frame is placed on there are a couple of cautions that I would warn about.
- Before placing the side you just cleaned against the art you need to make sure that it is really dry, not just streak free.
- Placing on the artwork and then cleaning the outside needs to be done with caution as the glass can move around on top of the artwork and if you are not careful, it can scalp the surface of the art - especially those shiny cheap posters.
I
ietk1970
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When I handle glass I only use anti-laceration gloves, the ones coated with rubber, I pull the glass out of the box by the very edge and I make sure I also pull the brown paper that separates the lites inside the shipping box, that brown paper is the one I use to protect the glass from scratches when cutting on the wall cutter, 99% of the times I do not have to clean the glass it comes clean from the factory just apply air to clean the dust. if I have to hold the glass grabbing the flat surface I make sure it is the outside face of the glass where is easier to clean after finishing the piece, larger pieces I hold them with my arms as wide as possible had an incident where a 36x46 just broke in half and I saw a huge sharp piece of glass passing about an inch from my left inside forearm, scary stuff......
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Each to their own but I have a board for cleaning glass on that is covered in domed bumpers so's the glass can't slide and is only in contact with those bumpers and not the whole bench area, whatever else that may be covered with. I want that both sides, not just one side. The glass can slide over mat board and the edge can take the surface paper off if it slides, or scratch it. It could also break when you're cleaning it, wouldn't want the art underneath - the art is totally out of the glass-cleaning stage of the process. Plus, like I said re 3-dimensional stuff, you can't always place the art on top and flip.
If I did put the art on top of the first side, flip over and then clean the second side, I'd wet the cloth for the second side, not the glass.
No method is perfect, for everyone, sometimes I find that I've got a couple of bumpers wet spraying the first side, i.e. they were outside the glass first side but I didn't put the glass in EXACTLY the same position when I flipped it. But that first side is the outside and that can be sorted later. In fact with glass that does not have an inside and an outside, like CC does for example, I regularly change my mind as to which side will face in - i.e. flip the lite over several times during cleaning/flumb removal - the art doesn't need or want to be part of that dance.
You've just got to clean a piece of glass both sides so my preferred method is, clean one side, then clean the other side the exact same way, nice and simple.
If I did put the art on top of the first side, flip over and then clean the second side, I'd wet the cloth for the second side, not the glass.
No method is perfect, for everyone, sometimes I find that I've got a couple of bumpers wet spraying the first side, i.e. they were outside the glass first side but I didn't put the glass in EXACTLY the same position when I flipped it. But that first side is the outside and that can be sorted later. In fact with glass that does not have an inside and an outside, like CC does for example, I regularly change my mind as to which side will face in - i.e. flip the lite over several times during cleaning/flumb removal - the art doesn't need or want to be part of that dance.
You've just got to clean a piece of glass both sides so my preferred method is, clean one side, then clean the other side the exact same way, nice and simple.
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Well, maybe the solution is, after cleaning both sides, don't 'put it in the frame' - put the frame on it! Put the art on top, flip over and put the frame on the glass/art and flip over.
Or, if that package is a bit of a nightmare, put the glass in the frame vertical, followed by the mat/art/mount and then you've got something easier to lift on to your bench.
Shattered or cracked? Shattered says to me lots of tiny shards. Very usual for this to happen unless you hit it deliberately. A single crack - maybe a few diverging cracks emanating from a tiny nick on the edge is more normal. If the edges are good then a piece of glass is surprisingly hard to break. You can bend it quite a distance. But one tiny nick to the edge is essentially the start of a crack and the slightest stress will - well you know what.
It's very easy to get a bit blasé after a while cutting glass. Every now and then you get a reminder of just how dangerous it is.
I got a permanent reminder on my left knuckle. Don't ask. :kaffeetrinker_2:Good question - it happened so fast, but I think it must have cracked and the large pieces broke when they landed. I don't even remember everything just being aware that hand hurt and that my glove was turning red.
Thanks to everyone's encouragement, I tackled my fears and cut another lite and finished the job without a hitch. But, I think I would like to order a glass seamer. I thought United carried them, but I can't seem to find it online now. I'll call tomorrow if I get a chance - I am behind schedule now!
Thanks to everyone's encouragement, I tackled my fears and cut another lite and finished the job without a hitch. But, I think I would like to order a glass seamer. I thought United carried them, but I can't seem to find it online now. I'll call tomorrow if I get a chance - I am behind schedule now!
Shattered or cracked? Shattered says to me lots of tiny shards. Very usual for this to happen unless you hit it deliberately. A single crack - maybe a few diverging cracks emanating from a tiny nick on the edge is more normal. If the edges are good then a piece of glass is surprisingly hard to break. You can bend it quite a distance. But one tiny nick to the edge is essentially the start of a crack and the slightest stress will - well you know what.
It's very easy to get a bit blasé after a while cutting glass. Every now and then you get a reminder of just how dangerous it is.
One (good?) thing about glass cuts is that they don't tend to penetrate like a knife blade. They sort of plane a chunk of skin off. Sorry TMI. They do bleed a lot though but usually the damage is fairly superficial.
Unless you get a pointy broken bit.....
Wish I hadn't made this post.
Unless you get a pointy broken bit.....
Wish I hadn't made this post.
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Years ago my father worked with me sometimes. I often gave him the horrors by holding a large sheet of glass vertically, and using the power of gravity, let it slide through my fingers about a foot or so! Only the ends of my fingers were touching the glass! No damage caused!
It reminds me of a scene in an old movie where two sword wielding guys were having at it. One guy lost his sword and he reached out and grabbed the blade of the other guys sword. There was a slight pause in which the guy who's fingers were wrapped around the sword had a look of horrendous fear on his face and the guy who had the sword had a look of glee on his face, just before he jerked on the sword, pulling it through....and I mean through the guys fingers.
Strike me lucky, that would be hideously frightful.
Blame Prospero for this post. He set the bar and I've made an attempt to get over it!
It reminds me of a scene in an old movie where two sword wielding guys were having at it. One guy lost his sword and he reached out and grabbed the blade of the other guys sword. There was a slight pause in which the guy who's fingers were wrapped around the sword had a look of horrendous fear on his face and the guy who had the sword had a look of glee on his face, just before he jerked on the sword, pulling it through....and I mean through the guys fingers.
Strike me lucky, that would be hideously frightful.
Blame Prospero for this post. He set the bar and I've made an attempt to get over it!
I wonder if I got a point - the cut was only about 1" long, but quite wide and deep. Ick. I confess I am a big wuss - afraid of doctors, needles and whatever goes with them. At least the nurse who did the sutures was cute! (Is that over the edge for this forum? If so, I apologize in advance.) But still, I am surprised how much it still hurts if I move or stretch the wrong way. Did I mention I am a wuss?
One (good?) thing about glass cuts is that they don't tend to penetrate like a knife blade. They sort of plane a chunk of skin off. Sorry TMI. They do bleed a lot though but usually the damage is fairly superficial.
Unless you get a pointy broken bit.....
Wish I hadn't made this post.
Not over the edge at all.
Focus on the positive, cute nurse, all fingers still attached.
I started framing in Chicago in 1969. Two blocks from Wrigley Field.
I regularly cut glass out of 40 x 60 and have not had one shatter like that.
You may have had a slight crack or chip on the edge that ran.
I have a glass seamer, but I don't use it on regular frame jobs, only for jobs with glass and clips or Uni-Frames which are few and far between. (thank goodness)
I always clean the glass outside of the frame. The glass needs to be properly supported if you pick it up when it's flat on the table. (not really recommended on really large pieces)
Support it with the backing as previously mentioned and if you have to pick it up horizontally, spread your fingers wide apart to minimize the stress. If you try to pick up a large sheet with your hand at one spot it can break off because of the stress in that small area. Spreading your fingers and/or using a backing will spread out the stress over a larger area.
It's also a good idea on large pieces, as mentioned earlier, to stand the frame up and lean it against the fitting table and put the glass and art package into the frame in a vertical position.
Shoot it in and then put it on the table for backing and wire.
Blame Prospero for this post. He set the bar and I've made an attempt to get over it!
I cut some glass for a lady last week and carefully loaded it in her car. I cautioned her that if she must carry sheets of glass in a car not to incline it leaning toward the front.
Did you watch The Omen?
Glass is either broken or not broken, there is no in between. Your sheet of glass did not just break on its own, it needed some help to "shatter", a lot of help. Or, and there is an "or" here, you might have had a warped sheet of glass, however, that is incredibly rare from Tru Vue, I've never seen it.
Somehow or another, you allowed the glass to bend to the point of breaking, I'm guessing it was because you were wearing gloves. Gloves can cover up the "feel" of the glass. It is better to handle glass with your bare hands, (except for museum glass). Have a clean sheet of Kraft paper to lay your glass on to clean it. Never allow glass to bend, even a little. Always support it so it can not bend.
Never carry a large sheet of glass in front of you, carry it by grasping the top edge and letting it support its own weight. Glass can and does shatter, a large sheet held up in front of your body can do some major damage to you, whereas a sheet that is hanging down beside you will only give you leg or foot cuts should it shatter.
-John
Somehow or another, you allowed the glass to bend to the point of breaking, I'm guessing it was because you were wearing gloves. Gloves can cover up the "feel" of the glass. It is better to handle glass with your bare hands, (except for museum glass). Have a clean sheet of Kraft paper to lay your glass on to clean it. Never allow glass to bend, even a little. Always support it so it can not bend.
Never carry a large sheet of glass in front of you, carry it by grasping the top edge and letting it support its own weight. Glass can and does shatter, a large sheet held up in front of your body can do some major damage to you, whereas a sheet that is hanging down beside you will only give you leg or foot cuts should it shatter.
-John