Hand wrap your mats/liners or buy them predone?

Create a Post
tnframer408

tnframer408

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Posts
1,506
Loc
Knoxville TN
The issue of fabric wrapped liners/mats came up in Edie's thread, which prompts this question:

How many of you wrap your own fillets/mats/liners and how many buy them already done?

personally, I like buying them predone from Raphael's or Falcon East. Saves me labor time and effort and I pass costs along to the customer anyway.

edie says she does her own.

I'd like to know how much time it takes you "handwrappers" to do these jobs vs. buying them predone. I would think they're very labor intensive. Are they?

------------------
Michael LeCompte CPF
The Great Frame Up
 
We offer "gallery wraps" for our liners. They are an easy sell when you point out there are no seams at the miters. It takes us about 20-30 minutes to do an average size linen wrap (24x36). We can offer a much larger selection of materials. We charge by the yard for materials and can often use the fall-outs for another piece, at full price of course. We also tell the client they can bring in their own material if they have something special in mind. The "gallery wrap" really is a much cleaner look and is the standard in our shop.

------------------
Capt. Ron - Framemaster of the Universe
 
Michael, wrapping liners and mats are one of the basic processes of custom framing. It's what we do, if we are custom framers. Actually, I think I would call it one of the joys of our craft.

If we were trying to get out of practicing our craft, why not just farm out the entire project?

Most of us are in this industry because we like to work with our hands. We like wrapping mats & liners, cutting fillets, cutting mats, cutting & joining frames, even in some shops, milling our own mouldings, finishing mouldings, etc. All of these procedures could be farmed out to other people and we could actually make more money by doing it. I don't think that's the reason most of us are here.

I know the core of businessmen on this forum will have trouble with this concept, but the bulk of us are doing this because we love the craft.

Most of us could make a lot more money doing other things or even doing things differently in our own shops, that's not why we are here. We like working with our hands, it's that simple.

In our shop, we prefer to do it ourselves.

John
 
Ron, will you share your costs on this with us? Are you chopping the raw liner? Are you priming it? We use Mighty or Miracle Muck, but it takes us way longer than 30 minutes by the time I order the liner chopped (or the length locally, then I cut it), join it, prime it, sand it, spread the glue, apply the fabric, let dry. Am I missing something, or am I just interminably slow?
frown.gif
I realize there are primed liners out there as we've used them, but I almost always apply a prime coat myself to fill the miters nicely.

Perhaps it's a question of repetition. But the cost is of much interest to me. Will you give an estimate with some detail?

Thanx........
 
Hi Michael, I meant to address this on the pet peeve thread...

I think this is a bit like the chop vs. length debate. And it probably works out to be "6 of one, half dozen of another."

But, I must admit that I like length better than chop for most profiles and I like wrapping my own mats and liners. It is labor-intensive. Luckily I am relatively fast at this- and when I batch up a bunch of these, I am really fast. Which is a good thing, because Goddess labor is expensive!

But the main reason I do them is that I like having control over the final product. I like making decisions about which way the grain lays and which adhesive to use with which fabric. I like that they are done to Goddess standards, also! I like having control over when they will be done as well. My UPS guy is a real stitch, but I don't miss the days of waiting for him to arrive with supplies before I can complete a promised order. I have always felt that the more I can do in-house, the more I have in my direct control, then the better I can serve my customers.
However, if there comes a day that I am not able to do these jobs, then I will farm it out. I have yet to try these services, but I am interested in hearing from you about the pros and cons of this. Have you had any quality-control problems? Delivery delays? Unannounced price increases? Shipping damage?
Just wonderin'!
Edie
 
Edited out by Dermot.

[This message has been edited by Dermot (edited January 08, 2002).]
 
Michael, After re-reading my post, I decided that I came off like a framing snob jerk. I apologize, that was not my intent. Although I meant everything I said, I should have added that your suggestion was an excellent one and will be valuable information to a lot of shops.

John
 
Although I, like John, enjoy the actual hand work involved in just about every aspect of building a custom frame and package,handwrapping every item myself is not always the best approach. What has worked best for me is to stock a half dozen fabrics that I sell often(Black, White and Natural Linen, Natural, Ivory, and Ecru pongee silk). If a job calls for "Paprika Raw Silk" I order it wrapped from a supplier. This saves me the agony of having to throw away scrap, or store it in hopes that someone will bring in an 11x14 that will look smashing in that shade of orange.

As for liners cut and wrapped or continuous (gallery) wrap? Since in most cases I order those I let the size dictate. Anything that can go by UPS ground gets continuous wrap without a second thougt. Over sized, I explain the difference to the client and let them decide if they want to pay the extra shipping. More often than not they do because they prefer the look.

------------------
Meghan C. McCord, CPF
J. Pocker & Son
Rye, NY
mcm87@att.net

[This message has been edited by framechick (edited January 08, 2002).]
 
First to John:

many thanks for the apology.

However, you do swerve into exactly my point: when do we stop being artisans and, even tho we love doing it, realize that shopping it out can be more profitable i.e., lesstime consuming/labor intensive. If your shop rate is $40 per hour can these wraps be done in one hour, or does it take two? And if it takes two, it is my contention that most of these can be bought from a Raphael's or Falcon East.

And now to Edie: Every canvas hanging on my walls has fabric wrapped liners picking up the colors in the canvas. Only once in four years have I had a quality problem and that was immediately remedied.

Mats we'll fabric wrap ourselves since I find them relatively quick to do. But a continuous fabric wrapped liner is a whole other kettle of fish. I find--and this is just me--that I often waste more and take more time than I should and my $40 per hour labor charge should have been doubled.

Its kinda like French Mating: I love to do those four to six line jobs with painted accents. But O the labor. W ay up there.

------------------
Michael LeCompte CPF
The Great Frame Up
 
Furthermore, when I was the one doing all of the wrapping (and also french mats), I found myself shying away from selling these items at busy times.

I think it's important to know how to do these things. By the same token I know how to change the oil and spark plugs in my car and have done so plenty of times. In my current circumstances it makes more sense for me to pay someone else to do these
things.
 
Whoa, Dermot: that's a little prickly there. Actually, being a wife/mother/cook/bottlewasher/framer qualifies me to be able to do more than one thing at a time. (No genderbashing intended: it's a generational thing.
smile.gif
) No, I don't watch it dry: that was a lame attempt at exaggeration. And, of course, my point was just how long does it reasonably take and at what price? No answers yet on the price or priming. I like Edie's thing about batching: we do that for drymounts, and it makes good sense. Will look into it for liners.
 
MerpsMom

I'm very sorry, of course I understand, I just lost the run of myself earlier today, once again please accept my humble apologies.

Dermot
 
We are looking at starting to wrap our own liners after being very unhappy with the choices of white, oyster, black and more white. I am looking forward to one of the Vegas classes that will teach me how to do this.
I recently saw a set of wrapped liners at a hotel that were stunning. They were all western canvas transfers but the liners were perfectly matched in widths of 6-8" with wide Roma frames on them.
Does anyone do their liners that wide and where could you possibly get liner stock that wide?
Also, does anyone know of a Canadian suppilier of these fabrics or do I have to run out to a local fabric store? The last option seems too time consuming.
Thanks in advance.

------------------
Lisa Kozokowsky C.G.A.H.
Frameswest Inc.
 
Ok, first, let me say we do mostly length for all the reasons the Goddess mentioned + our business plan is to put out the best product we possibly can at a competitive price !. (some times a tough call).

MerpsMom asked: Ron, will you share your costs on this with us? Are you chopping the raw liner? Are you priming it?

We order primed liner and charge the normal markup for building any other frame. (We do have a good chopper (Pistorious double) and we true and vise before v-nailing, so we have a good miter) . [you know; wiggle here, wiggle there: no excuse for a bad corner] Then we see if the particular fabric shows any thing through. If so, we will re-prime the liner. A few minutes + dry time. I may just touch up the miters a bit.

An example; Our cost per yard of Dublin-linen/cotton fabric is about $9.00 + freight. We charge $42.00 for the fabric per yard + the price of the joined raw liner.

Sorry, MerpsMom, I wish we could do it that fast but I meant; It takes about 20-30 minutes just to do the wrap.

We make our shop time.
Ok, first, let me say we do mostly length for all the reasons the Goddess mentioned + our business plan is to put out the best product we possibly can at a competitive price !. (some times a tough call).

MerpsMom asked: Ron, will you share your costs on this with us? Are you chopping the raw liner? Are you priming it?

We order primed liner and charge the normal markup for building any other frame. (We do have a good chopper (Pistorious double) and we true and vise before v-nailing, so we have a good miter) . [you know; wiggle here, wiggle there: no excuse for a bad corner] Then we see if the particular fabric shows any thing through. If so, we will re-prime the liner. A few minutes + dry time. I may just touch up the miters a bit.

An example; Our cost per yard of Dublin-linen/cotton fabric is about $9.00 + freight. We charge $42.00 for the fabric per yard + the price of the joined raw liner.

Sorry, MerpsMom, I wish we could do it that fast but I meant; It takes about 20-30 minutes just to do the wrap.

We make our shop time.
Ok, first, let me say we do mostly length for all the reasons the Goddess mentioned + our business plan is to put out the best product we possibly can at a competitive price !. (some times a tough call).

MerpsMom asked: Ron, will you share your costs on this with us? Are you chopping the raw liner? Are you priming it?

We order primed liner and charge the normal markup for building any other frame. (We do have a good chopper (Pistorious double) and we true and vise before v-nailing, so we have a good miter) . [you know; wiggle here, wiggle there: no excuse for a bad corner] Then we see if the particular fabric shows any thing through. If so, we will re-prime the liner. A few minutes + dry time. I may just touch up the miters a bit.

An example; Our cost per yard of Dublin-linen/cotton fabric is about $9.00 + freight. We charge $42.00 for the fabric per yard + the price of the joined raw liner.

Sorry, MerpsMom, I wish we could do it that fast but I meant; It takes about 20-30 minutes just to do the wrap.

We make our shop time.


------------------
Capt. Ron - Framemaster of the Universe
 
Well, thanx for that, Ron. Surely you jest about my thinking the 20-30 minutes isn't fast! But I can now put a dollar figure on all of this as a comparative.

Dermot, no problem: a prune you're not.
smile.gif
A nice cuppa tea and a Hershey's helps me during tough times. (Others around here like KK's.)
 
For those of you who want to learn how to wrap your own liners & mats, Call Frank's Fabrics in Los Angeles. I'm at home now, so I don't have his number. Call the 800 information operator to get his number. ( 1-800-555-1212 )

Frank will send you printed instructions and all the materials you need. I've been using Yes Paste for years, I ordered Frank's liner glue and instructions a few months ago. It surprised even me, how fast easy it was. Heck of a lot easier than Yes paste.

The only thing I changed on his instructions was he suggests laying the fabric onto the glued liner, then lining it up. I have always laid the fabric out on a clean table, getting the weave and grain as straight as I can, then laying the glued liner down onto the fabric, lining it up with the grain. Press down on it and carefully flip it over, then rubbing the fabric into the glue.

John
 
This is a timely topic for me. I have to wrap 28 liners by the weekend and ran into a problem. The glue we have always used, Elmers glue all mixed with water isn't working this time. I forms a rubber like skin as soon as I brush it on.
I called the folks at Falcon East. Real nice and helpful people. They suggested Mighty Muck and are sending a gallon overnite. Hopefully I will get it today.
They thought maybe I was preparing the raw liner too good. I was taught to gesso and sand the liner 3 times, but Falcon east said that is maybe to much and the glue can't "get a grip"
It takes me forever to cover a liner and maybe this is why. Is one coat good enough? I was worried about the raw wood showing through the liner if it wasn't completley covered. Maybe I should just use one coat of gesso and no sanding? Sure would save time, although a little late for this project. But I would dread doing these liners a little less in the future if less gesso, sanding and drying time were involved.
Anyway, I am off to work now and hoping that Mighty Muck will save my day.
 
Three coats of gesso?! That does seem a bit excessive! I have always used one coat of acrylic paint and not too thick, either. I think you'll like the Mighty Muck. Let us know how it goes!
 
What percent of your business is done with liners or wrapped mats? Is it is high as 10% or more? Just curious.
 
I would say around 10% or maybe a little more. We do have a couple high-end galleries we frame for which keeps the numbers up.

When necessary, we re-prime or touch up with a light coat of either a latex enamel or Kilz, depending, and have used mighty muck with success but usually use Sobo fabric glue as it is available locally.

We offer french lines and painted bevels as a subtle and inexpensive way to add value to a mat. We also offer french panels (powder); but now we are talking labor intensive.

------------------
Capt. Ron - Framemaster of the Universe
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Carter:
What percent of your business is done with liners or wrapped mats? Is it is high as 10% or more? Just curious.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It hovers slightly over 10%, i would say. I order 4 or 5 in a typical week and so far I've been averaging 35 frames a week (I expect to increase that, though as the weeks go by!)

------------------
Meghan C. McCord, CPF
J. Pocker & Son
Rye, NY
mcm87@att.net
 
I do all my own fabric mats. They take very little time to do. I order liners either chopped or continuous. They take too much time for me to do. I doubt that the customer ends up paying any more or less if I did them or had Master Source do them for me. 7-10% of sales are fabric mats. I don't have a breakdown of liners, I'm certain the percentage of sales is higher for liners. I order more liners than fabric.
 
Mighty Muck saved the day. Along with the advise from Holly at Falcon East.
All liners are covered, still have to tuck under the flanges.
I had been brushing on the glue but Holly suggested using a trim roller. Saved alot of time.
I don't use a lot of covered liners (I've tried to avoid them, but no more) I am framing these for an artist that has a show in town every year and every thing he does goes in linen.
I'm not much for posting on the Gumble, but I want to let you all know that you have saved my butt more that once.
 
once we have introduced fabric to the customer they usually opt for it. i can usually count on covering 3-6, sometimes more in a given week. either on matting or on liners. i prefer to do them myself. i have more choice in color, and to me the mitred corners cheapen the look of it. (my humble opinion) also, the black is blacker...the blue is bluer...etc etc. i love the richness of i try to do most everything in a batch if i can. its a great time saver. my method of doing it is much like the ones i have read from y'all miracle muck is the best. the guys at raphaels have always been helpful to me in times of crises.
kirsty
 
Create a Post
Back
Top