Marc Lizer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
As you can see on the other thread the rules are simple.
Add comments below.
Add comments below.
Grumble Ground Rules Disscussion and Poll
- Thread starter Marc Lizer
- Start date
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Only rule I would question is Don't rock the boat. I don't know what the Grumble would be without a little boat-rocking!
How about converting one of the seldom-used forums into a "Hot Button Issues" forum, where people can argue the Big Issues to their hearts content? This would give moderators a place to transfer threads that might be inappropriate for the Grumble or even Warped forum.
One potential pitfall of this would be the creation of hard feelings between particular Grumblers which could spill over into the other forums. On the other hand, that's already happened to some degree even without this new arena.
Rick
One potential pitfall of this would be the creation of hard feelings between particular Grumblers which could spill over into the other forums. On the other hand, that's already happened to some degree even without this new arena.
Marc Lizer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
For those who missed them:
Current Grumble Ground Rules.
1. Be Nice
2. Ask if you need help.
3. If you know how to help, give it.
4. The golden rule.
5. Don't rock the boat!!!!
Personally I think it is simple and elegant.
But I have no idea what anyone else thinks on the subject. There have been rumblings of dis-satisfaction with divisive and derisive threads or posts, so these threads are a response to that.
Here are some possible additions or modifications:
Listen to others, and then they will listen to you.
No put-downs, who needs them.
Speak for yourself, not for anybody else.
Show respect to other peoples ideas, opinions or viewpoints.
Take charge of yourself, you are responsible for you and what you say.
You have the option NOT to post to a topic you disagree with.
But my biggenst question is:
Do you really want moderators to be cops trolling aroudn for bad post and bad posters?
I would hope that self restraint will rule the day. After all we are all (more or less) framers with a common ground.
Current Grumble Ground Rules.
1. Be Nice
2. Ask if you need help.
3. If you know how to help, give it.
4. The golden rule.
5. Don't rock the boat!!!!
Personally I think it is simple and elegant.
But I have no idea what anyone else thinks on the subject. There have been rumblings of dis-satisfaction with divisive and derisive threads or posts, so these threads are a response to that.
Here are some possible additions or modifications:
Listen to others, and then they will listen to you.
No put-downs, who needs them.
Speak for yourself, not for anybody else.
Show respect to other peoples ideas, opinions or viewpoints.
Take charge of yourself, you are responsible for you and what you say.
You have the option NOT to post to a topic you disagree with.
But my biggenst question is:
Do you really want moderators to be cops trolling aroudn for bad post and bad posters?
I would hope that self restraint will rule the day. After all we are all (more or less) framers with a common ground.
Marc Lizer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Rick,
Who is to judge what is Hot Button?
Let's say a Big Box discussion in hot, but civil.
Does it get moved?
What if just one person is not being civil? Move the thread or delete the post?
What if a political thread gets moved at the judgement of a moderator, but another political thread (that the moderator agrees with) does not.
Folks will be crying foul.
Threads will fill with people with different benchmarks for what needs to be moved and when posting about the need to move them. Others with then disagree with that.
And when the moderator does move it, the will still be folks who disagree with that, and scream foul to high heaven rail about injustice.
We already have a "alert the moderator" hot button on each post, on each thread? At the bottom of this post is a small whistle with the words "report post."
We already have a garbage can to throw out the trash threads.
We already have the ability to delete an individually questionable post.
There is already the the ability to ban a person to makes too many "bad" posts.
Is more authoritarian parenting needed?
Who is to judge what is Hot Button?
Let's say a Big Box discussion in hot, but civil.
Does it get moved?
What if just one person is not being civil? Move the thread or delete the post?
What if a political thread gets moved at the judgement of a moderator, but another political thread (that the moderator agrees with) does not.
Folks will be crying foul.
Threads will fill with people with different benchmarks for what needs to be moved and when posting about the need to move them. Others with then disagree with that.
And when the moderator does move it, the will still be folks who disagree with that, and scream foul to high heaven rail about injustice.
We already have a "alert the moderator" hot button on each post, on each thread? At the bottom of this post is a small whistle with the words "report post."
We already have a garbage can to throw out the trash threads.
We already have the ability to delete an individually questionable post.
There is already the the ability to ban a person to makes too many "bad" posts.
Is more authoritarian parenting needed?
Rozmataz
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
It's like walking on the edge of a sawblade if you post a thread and disclaim certain avenues... which is what caused this newest poll.
If someone wants to discuss issues of a positive nature, without controversy, it is as difficult as it is for those that want the hot-button issues out there, without bad feelings.
There isn't an answer to this as long as we are an open forum.
New area: Boat Rockers Zone - post at your own risk. No moderators on duty.
If someone wants to discuss issues of a positive nature, without controversy, it is as difficult as it is for those that want the hot-button issues out there, without bad feelings.
There isn't an answer to this as long as we are an open forum.
New area: Boat Rockers Zone - post at your own risk. No moderators on duty.
Marc Lizer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
For the most part, moderators are already not on duty most of the time.
D_Derbonne
PFG, Picture Framing God
I don't think moderators should be patrolling for bad posts.
As you pointed out there is a Report Post button for anyone to use if they feel the need.
As you pointed out there is a Report Post button for anyone to use if they feel the need.
Mike LeCompte CPF
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
This is most interesting. I voted for throwing the rules out altogether. That said, ,however, I'm on many forums from boating to beachhouse living to Palm forums , nowhere else do people begin to argue on the topics they do here. I have no answer for any of this, just seems to me alot of folks here have either really thin skin or they love to argue or both.
Which is OK with me. Just find it interesting that
Which is OK with me. Just find it interesting that
Rozmataz
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
This has to do with polite behaviour.
I am certain that if any group were sitting around a table and talking as the posts roll out - that there would not be as many inflamatory posts/comments. People would either ask the person to shut up, leave or leave themselves. So that is our option here if a post gets "hot" - get up and leave, turn the channel. But also, respect it when someone wants a "nice" post without controversy.
I am certain that if any group were sitting around a table and talking as the posts roll out - that there would not be as many inflamatory posts/comments. People would either ask the person to shut up, leave or leave themselves. So that is our option here if a post gets "hot" - get up and leave, turn the channel. But also, respect it when someone wants a "nice" post without controversy.
Dave
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Sometimes controversial issues need to be debated. This is not a bad forum for that as long as everyone respects each other's opinion.
I agree that if someone takes offense to a thread, then they have the option to tune that thread out. Many times I decided not to get into the malay and many times I've jumped in feet first. Ususally if I jump in it is because I have a strong opinion on a topic.
Dave Makielski
I agree that if someone takes offense to a thread, then they have the option to tune that thread out. Many times I decided not to get into the malay and many times I've jumped in feet first. Ususally if I jump in it is because I have a strong opinion on a topic.
Dave Makielski
Emibub
PFG, Picture Framing God
Yikes, can't believe all this controversey. since I am one of the possible "thin skinned" people who requested that we didn't need to bring religion into the discussion.....
It isn't the first time the poster has felt the need to tell us to save our souls. I don't want to have to read this stuff when I am looking for framing discussions. I felt it was time to say something. I don't feel I was being unkind. It has nothing to do with religion pro or con either way. There is a time and a place and this forum isn't it. It is one thing to end your post with "God Bless them" or "God Bless that', it is quite another to use every opening to tell everybody to read the bible and the end is coming. This is supposed to be a business discussion area. I imagine there are forums that are geared towards business owning Christians where it would be acceptable.
In retrospect I guess the best thing to do would have been to ignore it. If the thread had been started in Warped it never would have gotten that kind of repsonse from me. I am one of the ones who doesn't care what is discussed on Warped, I am not trying to quiet people I don't agree with, it is just a matter of being appropriate. It is not a matter of being disagreeable or liking to argue, it is all about common sense.
It isn't the first time the poster has felt the need to tell us to save our souls. I don't want to have to read this stuff when I am looking for framing discussions. I felt it was time to say something. I don't feel I was being unkind. It has nothing to do with religion pro or con either way. There is a time and a place and this forum isn't it. It is one thing to end your post with "God Bless them" or "God Bless that', it is quite another to use every opening to tell everybody to read the bible and the end is coming. This is supposed to be a business discussion area. I imagine there are forums that are geared towards business owning Christians where it would be acceptable.
In retrospect I guess the best thing to do would have been to ignore it. If the thread had been started in Warped it never would have gotten that kind of repsonse from me. I am one of the ones who doesn't care what is discussed on Warped, I am not trying to quiet people I don't agree with, it is just a matter of being appropriate. It is not a matter of being disagreeable or liking to argue, it is all about common sense.
Paul N
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Well said Kathy!
Emibub
PFG, Picture Framing God
So now, I am totaly baffled, I just read the thread "What is the best book other than religious, you have read lately?", and most of the responses are for leisure reading type books where I would have thought they would have been business related suggestions. So, reading the title of the thread makes it look like any topic is acceptable but religion. Back in the "Day" we just knew the topic was related to business or pleasure reading just by where the topic was posted. Silly me, I guess I don't know how the Grumble works anymore.
Baer Charlton
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Amazingly enough, I think the bulk of us who rise to a debate, also are indicitive of the majority of us in this industry.
I have worked off and on in many industries, and it seems that the intelligence level (not IQ) tends to be a bit higher in framers. They also lean towards being just a little more read, creative, and up for a little intellectual stimulation.... hence the "heat".
We also run the gambit from the very liberal to the concervative, from the athiest and agnostic to the fanatical religious fervert. We are loosey-goosey to anal retentive. We speak little or we have verbal diaria. We have seemingly nothing but fun to don't have time for that nonsense.
But when it all comes down to a Chinese Dinner in Vegas or Pity Pats in Atlanta, we're all framers and enjoy each other because of, and in spite of our shared and unshared whackoness.
If someone feels that the only way they can contribute in a thread, is to take a personal swack at someone or their belief systems.... shame on them. Maybe a time out.
But, I was a Hall Monitor in the 7th & 8th grade... I don't see any reason why we would need one of those little twits here now.... we're adults..... except Sarah, and she has a hall pass anyday in my book.
Personally, when the discussions have been running hot but not personal, I have never enjoied plopping down at the computer in the middle of the night with insomnia. You guys have enriched my life and almost lead me away from FreeCell.
carry on.
I have worked off and on in many industries, and it seems that the intelligence level (not IQ) tends to be a bit higher in framers. They also lean towards being just a little more read, creative, and up for a little intellectual stimulation.... hence the "heat".
We also run the gambit from the very liberal to the concervative, from the athiest and agnostic to the fanatical religious fervert. We are loosey-goosey to anal retentive. We speak little or we have verbal diaria. We have seemingly nothing but fun to don't have time for that nonsense.
But when it all comes down to a Chinese Dinner in Vegas or Pity Pats in Atlanta, we're all framers and enjoy each other because of, and in spite of our shared and unshared whackoness.
If someone feels that the only way they can contribute in a thread, is to take a personal swack at someone or their belief systems.... shame on them. Maybe a time out.
But, I was a Hall Monitor in the 7th & 8th grade... I don't see any reason why we would need one of those little twits here now.... we're adults..... except Sarah, and she has a hall pass anyday in my book.
Personally, when the discussions have been running hot but not personal, I have never enjoied plopping down at the computer in the middle of the night with insomnia. You guys have enriched my life and almost lead me away from FreeCell.
carry on.
D
Dermot
Guest
Gee guys if you think a few of the threads on the G have been a bit heated………you would die a death at most dinner parties, social or business meetings in Ireland…….over here we generally call a spade a spade and we would genuinely hope that the person responding was doing the same thing…
I voted drop all rules……
I had a very interesting discussion with someone very eminent recently about been politically correct and how most political conversations and outcomes are very polar nowadays ……his response to me was that if we don’t get off our behinds and reintroduce the skills of debate in general……we will end up handing the world over to consultants and extremists ……..and that moderate politics and religion will become a thing of the past and that the nut cases will take over…….it gave me food for thought….
I voted drop all rules……
I had a very interesting discussion with someone very eminent recently about been politically correct and how most political conversations and outcomes are very polar nowadays ……his response to me was that if we don’t get off our behinds and reintroduce the skills of debate in general……we will end up handing the world over to consultants and extremists ……..and that moderate politics and religion will become a thing of the past and that the nut cases will take over…….it gave me food for thought….
unanswered and ignored posts die as they should.
Emibub
PFG, Picture Framing God
Baer, the topic that brought about this thread was not about taking a swack at somebody's personal belief system. I respect all people's belief systems, I would never tell somebody how to live their lives. It was about asking to not have somebody's belief system thrown in my face when I am not there to talk about said belief system. Most of us have our own belief systems and are very happy with them.
I think the whole thing has been twisted beyond recognition by this point, and I don't mean by you Baer.
Baer Charlton
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
No, you're right Kathy. Most of us have some kind of belief system in place....
What others don't get, is that thier prostelisizing their belief to me it offensive because in doing so, they have in effect said that they find my system of no value and "theirs is the one and only way".
( I think I quoted Jim Jones correctly.)
It is why I got such a chuckle out of JRBs tag line for so long "the other guys church is always a cult." It basically seems to be the way things are.... untill you get down to things that really matter... then belief systems seem so petty in the scope of things that matter.
** my cousin has been telling me about some guy in Texas who has started a religion around Hummers....
but then, don't get me started about my Prius... 
so it's all relative.
What others don't get, is that thier prostelisizing their belief to me it offensive because in doing so, they have in effect said that they find my system of no value and "theirs is the one and only way".
( I think I quoted Jim Jones correctly.)
It is why I got such a chuckle out of JRBs tag line for so long "the other guys church is always a cult." It basically seems to be the way things are.... untill you get down to things that really matter... then belief systems seem so petty in the scope of things that matter.
** my cousin has been telling me about some guy in Texas who has started a religion around Hummers....
so it's all relative.kirsten
Grumbler
My general opinion is that this forum is called The Grumble for a reason. It is a place for people in our line of work to voice opinions, ask questions and discuss topics that some of us don't have the oportunity/freedom to openly engage during the average work day. It makes sence to weed out the religious / political issues from business realted issues. But I think the "don't rock the boat" rule and other possible "rules" would only fule people who tend to take things too personally into acting out from a place of unfounded righteousness. Also, if we are over moderated, I bet a number of people would discontinue using the forum, and the forum would stall in it's effectivenss. Who wants to hang out with a bunch or mutual "yesmen" - OTHER THAN BUSH!? LOL! Sorry, couldn't resist. (I am partially making fun of myself with that Bush comment in a nod to the post I wrote regarding Deconsbench, that was the most recent catalyst for this poll.) Anyway, I think it's great for us all that there is a place to let out the tensions of our thoughts and lives - regardless of weather it's about framing or religion. Maybe a customer you REALLY dissagree with in a fundamental way has ruffled your feathers, or a supplier! One cannot always tell people exactly what they think while doing business, weather, your on the buying or selling end. And of course venting is different from name calling and telling people to "shut up" or "grow up". But even then, maybe someone has a bad day and let it out here. Or maybe they are continually irritated by an issue and someone sais something to spark their fires (like me!). Can't we forgive them and be glad for them that they didn't tell their customer to shut up? I mean really guys, how does anything said here effect your life? The fact is that it doesn't unless you let it. Lets not let. Lets allow each other the freedom to be ourselves and be imperfect, and get on with the debate!
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2000
- Posts
- 16,871
Hi Kathy-I agree. But, what tickles me mostly is the number of those who never think that what they said was anything but sweet and innocent. That it is always the other guy who overreacts and always the other guy that misinterprets.
Somehow, it's those decrying intolerance that are the most intolerant.
If I thought any rule might be worthy, it might be to eliminate all the postscript little messages.
But, in reality very few of these last more than a couple of days. It is really a very small group that seem that carry it further.
Somehow, it's those decrying intolerance that are the most intolerant.
If I thought any rule might be worthy, it might be to eliminate all the postscript little messages.
But, in reality very few of these last more than a couple of days. It is really a very small group that seem that carry it further.
JbNormandog
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Emibub,
Thanks, don't know if I could have replied any better.
I voted no rules.
We are adults, this place is called "THE GRUMBLE" not "THE NICE PLEASANT PLACE WHERE NO ONE DISAGREES"
We are a community onto ourselves. We felt sorry for Ron's loss of pets (including pox) and feel his happiness with Esther. We were concered for Baer's foot surgery and wished him well. How else would I know about Phoneguycanucks daughters impressive grades if it weren't for a feeling of neighbors, not geographically but profesionally.
Like all neighbors, we don't have to like everything said. We can then tell what our problem is with a statement, ignore the statement or whatever but there will be some disagreement everywhere people are being real and not phony.
If a question comes up about framing and someone says read the bible, then that is just stupid. If someone asks what is the last book you read and someone posts the bible, they gave their answer.
Overall if there is something here I don't like (LaMarche moudling requests) I ignore it and look for something of interest.
Wow just killed the last 10 minutes of my day and now I can go home to my little girl and fingerpaint on a pumpkin, Thanks.
Thanks, don't know if I could have replied any better.
I voted no rules.
We are adults, this place is called "THE GRUMBLE" not "THE NICE PLEASANT PLACE WHERE NO ONE DISAGREES"
We are a community onto ourselves. We felt sorry for Ron's loss of pets (including pox) and feel his happiness with Esther. We were concered for Baer's foot surgery and wished him well. How else would I know about Phoneguycanucks daughters impressive grades if it weren't for a feeling of neighbors, not geographically but profesionally.
Like all neighbors, we don't have to like everything said. We can then tell what our problem is with a statement, ignore the statement or whatever but there will be some disagreement everywhere people are being real and not phony.
If a question comes up about framing and someone says read the bible, then that is just stupid. If someone asks what is the last book you read and someone posts the bible, they gave their answer.
Overall if there is something here I don't like (LaMarche moudling requests) I ignore it and look for something of interest.
Wow just killed the last 10 minutes of my day and now I can go home to my little girl and fingerpaint on a pumpkin, Thanks.
deaconsbench
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I seriously doubt you believe I stick 'read the Bible' and 'save your soul' in every post I have made. I've never tried to 'get someone saved' or 'converted' to anything. And, because it was thrown out there by another participant, I happened to vote for Bush because he represented more closely my beliefs, and the other choice was nightmarish, IMHO. But why that (Bush) connection was made to my post is completely beyond anything that resembles sense. I'm not a follower of President Bush, as was so strongly suggested. I've never posted a political opinion, and failed to see why that charge was made against me.
The post I made has been explained sufficiently, but allow me to expand on my replies for the business reading request I responded to.
"You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a heavy and a light."
"You shall not have in your house differing measures, a large and a small."
"You shall have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure, that your days may be lengthened in the land..."
There are reams of other business directives, but surely you get the idea. You would need to read the Bible in order to glean this information out, just as you would have had to read the entire book on a brewery operation where someone has some good small business ideas.
My reading suggestion was valid and acceptable as it stood. Being 'zealous' is also attributable to those that replied harshly, with no regard to decent treatment of another human being.
I'm not shooting for 'martyrdom', nor am I willing to be someone's doormat.
The obscurity of using a computer makes for many 'keyboard commandos'. Surely the responsible, professional adults on the Grumble don't need to stoop to that low an existence.
I understand there can be a certain degree of fear in what is misunderstood or unknown, and the maligning replies are not shocking to me as a result.
As someone else said, at the end of the day we have framed, framed, framed!
A day in the life of a Grumble moderator:
</font>
Considering the number of posts and participants, there are very few serious dogfights on TG. Rarely is there a moderator standing by with a fire hose and hardly anyone needs stitches.
(Sorry, I just can't help myself.)
</font>
- Noticed an accidental triple post and deleted the two extras so the poster wouldn't look like a boob.</font>
- Moved a classified ad from the main Grumble forum to the classifieds forum.</font>
- Responded to an email from a Grumbler who has misplaced his password.</font>
- Responded to a post which has gone unanswered for a few days just so the post doesn't get buried. (The response might be a dog story, but it brings the topic back to the top.)</font>
Considering the number of posts and participants, there are very few serious dogfights on TG. Rarely is there a moderator standing by with a fire hose and hardly anyone needs stitches.
(Sorry, I just can't help myself.)
I think the rules are fine as they are. Adding to them wouldn't add anything because most people (speaking for myself in particular) don't look at the rule book before posting. The fact that the forum is moderated, backed up by Rule #1 Be Nice is enough for me.
^What Ron said
I'm not a fan of overmoderation, and I think the Grumble is fairly laid back in this regard. Most folks police themselves and use common sense. We volunteer here to stimulate discussion, delete duplicate posts, and move threads posted in the wrong forums by accident.
Frankly, if it became a nasty place I would resign. That being said, this is one of the friendliest forums I have ever visited. It has a very diverse group of guests with their beliefs and often strong opinions, which co-exist fairly well.
I wouldn't change a thing
Mike
Grumbler and moderator
I'm not a fan of overmoderation, and I think the Grumble is fairly laid back in this regard. Most folks police themselves and use common sense. We volunteer here to stimulate discussion, delete duplicate posts, and move threads posted in the wrong forums by accident.
Frankly, if it became a nasty place I would resign. That being said, this is one of the friendliest forums I have ever visited. It has a very diverse group of guests with their beliefs and often strong opinions, which co-exist fairly well.
I wouldn't change a thing
Mike
Grumbler and moderator
This place is quite mild compared to the rough and tumble forum at which I cut my teeth (called appropriately enough, "soapbox", and now even more rough and tumble since it's no longer a corporate owned resource). We can and do say just about anything to each other, but we can still get together occasionally in person and be civil. I don't see any need to change the rules. I'm not sure why this is even coming up.
AnneL
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
You mean you guys aren't watching us all the time to make sure we behave! And here I thought it was because the Grumble was well moderated that it ran so well. And I've been telling the photographers on the new forum I'm on not to worry about it turning into amateur camera club level discussions if it is well moderated like the Grumble. Turns out the Grumble is mostly self moderated and it is the people we have on here that keep things from getting out of hand.
Emibub
PFG, Picture Framing God
Deacon, I meant you no ill will in my original post in the other thread. I never said you brought it into every post I simply said you take every opportunity presented to you to bring it up. I don't fear any message you are trying to convey. For the record, since you quoted me above, I want to make clear I never brought politics or Bush into the discussion. I am not anti-religious or anti-god, I simply don't care to have it waved in my face when I am on a framing forum. It will be easy enough to ignore in the future........end of discussion, go in peace.
Marc Lizer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
This has been brewing for a while.
We keep having some threads with strong feelings, over time. And at times behavious keeps comming up as re-current theme.
So this is a long running question, and hence, I asked the question.
A small sampling of threads is:
http://www.thegrumble.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=004276#000008
http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003353;p=12#000277
http://www.thegrumble.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003407#000023
http://www.thegrumble.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003407#000023
http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000917#000004
http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007253#000019
http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003459#000010
http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003137;p=1
http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=001800#000000
http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=004270#000002
http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003353;p=4#000084
http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003436;p=1
But there are numerous other contentions threads of late. So it's not just one person or group of people (sorry JRB, but thatnks for the kind thoughts). Nor is is just one subject. Things have been just as contentious over Attach EZ at times.
Of late is has been Religion. Politics had some major blowouts a bit ago. The Europan vs US threads had a good deal of fireworks.
So Deacon, it's not you, nor is it you Kathy. It's cumulative. And JRB, if you'd like to think it's you, that's fine. But it's not. By your vitriol and uncharacteristic baiting is suspect that there is somethinkg else going on with you, but I really don't know.
I'd like The Grumble to be a place where differences can be shared in a civil manner.
But hey what do I know. I'm just a framer.