Good Framer/Bad Framer/Ugly Framer

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Ron Eggers

Ron Eggers

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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Jul 6, 2001
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Wisconsin
If anything good can come out of the evergreen slug thread, maybe it is this: How would we, as professional framers, suggest that a potential customer locate a qualified framer to handle collectables? Here are some criteria that WON'T work:

Home-based vs. store-front (Betty Newman and MerpsMom alone make this issue invalid)

PPFA vs. non-PPFA
or
CPF vs non-CPF (some of us are just good at taking tests - I have a degree in geology, but can't tell you where to drill for oil)

Big box vs. specialty shop (maybe a start, but not enough)

Years of experience (nope - too many old timers, like me, that stopped learning years ago)

I've had customers that have moved to Minneapolis or Chicago and still bring framing back to me. I tease them about this (very gently) and they tell me the task of locating a new framer, especially when there are so many choices, is just too daunting.

Would it be useful for us to establish a list of questions that people could ask? What questions would YOU ask if you were on the other side of the counter? If edp is really interested in helping poster collectors, I would think something like this would be welcomed.

I'll start working on my list and post it later.

edit: $^%#@)*&, I meant to make this a NEW topic. Let me see if I can do this . . . Yep, that worked
 
Hi Ron

. . . a daunting task.

It's been my experience that finding a "good" framer is something that is accomplished as a result of word-of-mouth research.

It may take more than one attempt to find a framer who can satisfactorily meet a client's requirements, but when it happens, as you know, word does get around.
 
The best advice I could give anyone doesn't matter whether they're framing collectables, children's art, inexpensive posters or the sausage curls from great grandpa's first haircut:

TALK TO YOUR FRAMER.

If that framer isn't willing to listen to what you have to say or doesn't seem interested in your framing project, then pack it up and move on to the next frame shop.

ASK QUESTIONS - LOTS OF QUESTIONS

Ask how the piece will be mounted; ask what kind of glazing is recommended; ask how the framer has handled similar pieces in the past. (Do not ask for home addresses or phone numbers unless you are interested in inviting me to dinner and a movie.)

GIVE YOUR FRAMER INFORMATION ABOUT THE PIECE AND WHERE IT WILL HANG
 
The smartest thing anyone could possibly do is just bring all their framing projects to me.

If you don't live in the San Diego Area, have them UPSd to my shop.

Of course, this is my totaly, unbiased, professional opinion.


John
 
John, hey, I really liked your idea and was going to give you a trial run but I got the frame moulding sample stuck in the infeed chute of my FAX machine while trying to send you my needs and the art print, mat samples, and frame that my customer picked out.

(She didn't say much, just picked up her print and slipped out the front door.)

Sorry, things didn't work out this time.

Framerguy, electronically deprived framer from IL.
 
All right, children - I'm serious here. Your mother lives 2000 miles away. She wants to get some framing done where she lives (she can't afford you.) And there's a gazillion framers in her city. She's going to start visiting some. What should she ask? What should she look for? (If she's like most folks, her very first question will be "how much?")

I'm going through a similar thing myself. I want to sign The Diva up for SCUBA classes. She's my baby girl and I want the best. I taught SCUBA for years in Houston and Santa Barbara, but I know nothing about the shops here. (Luckily, there aren't very many, so it won't take me forever to check 'em out. And I know what to ask. Also, I plan to go through the class with her and keep an eye on things. That'll be really fun for the instructor. So I guess it's NOT a "similar thing" at all.)
 
Well I think it's more a question of the customer having a check list of what they want - something like Jack's perfect customer, but maybe a bit calmer.

In the past I always gave my clients general instructions about what they should request when I send them off to a framer, but I've learned over the years that this is not always enough. Thanks to what I've learned on the Grumble, and the FACTS site, I've been able to draw up a list of specific materials, with brand names, for them to ask for. Also, I've written a short article "Framing it Right" that I give them too.

Hinges are always a problem though - I've given a few talks to framers showing them how to use wheat starch/Japanese paper, but I'm pretty sure most just don't want to deal with it. (I'm really afraid to ask!) I have started my own unscientific but useful testing of the various "archival" tapes on the market, and go back every few years to see which ones I can still remove. Each paper/tape system will, of course react differently, but suprisingly, Lineco's (and ONLY Lineco's) gummed linen tape is the easiest for me to remove. Much less gunky that their pre-pasted Japanese paper tape.

I don't know if the hinge problem will ever be 100% solved.

Rebecca
 
OK, Zippy, I got carried away again. I'm sorry.

Some of the obvious questions would include:

1. Do you guarantee your work?

2. Will that glass cause my movie poster to fade over time?

3. How do you keep contamination away from my movie poster?

4. How is this going to be held in place? Will it fall off if it gets bumped or moved?

5. Will those colored cardboard thingys hurt my movie poster? Why are they so expensive?

6. Why can't we just leave those cardboard thingys off and use this frame with a piece of plastic glass? (Holding a profile 15 metal)

(Sorry for the digression) :rolleyes:

There are actually MORE questions that a qualified FRAMER should be asking than those of the customer. Much of the information that a framer needs to properly frame a collectible piece is pieced together by asking a number of questions, the answers to which would not normally be offered by the customer.

I would think that her gut feeling about how the framer reacts to her would be somewhat of a hint as to how he cares for his customers and their framings. I would not do business with anyone that didn't seem interested in what my needs were and didn't ask pertinent questions about how I want the work done.

FGII
 
Good point, Bob. Some month's ago, we decided that the PPFA does not - probably can not - screen members according to their capabilities. Does FramerSelect? I'd have to go look through the membership package (which is in that "thinking about" stage.) But does membership in FramerSelect imply particular qualifications? Also, the last time I checked, FramerSelect membership was a little thin in some geographic areas, though probably growing.
 
question
What should I know about framing to ask good questions? How do I know yhe answers are the right ones. After all Sue (poster thread) Is giving the answers right. It is not knowing the questions it is knowing the answers maybe. If you go looking for a good attorny you are faced with the same thing. You never really know until he loses the case. Then everyone you talk to tells you who you should have gone to.
Jim Ohio
 
Ron,

FramerSelect would disquality Betty, MerpsMom, and me ! (How could you?!) :rolleyes:

It--FramerSelect--could be a start, but I have to agree with others that it's more important that the framer should be interested and involved, ask questions, then offer information and solutions, i.e., educate.

Mel
 
Here are some of my questions. (First I'd tell the framer what the piece means to me and where I might expect to hang it.)

</font>
  • What kind of glazing would you recommend? If the framer doesn't know what 'glazing' means, leave immediately. </font>
  • What will you attach my art to and what will you attach it with? </font>
  • Who will actually do the framing? You? The high school trainee after school? The wholesale place across town? </font>
  • Do you have adequate insurance if your building burns down while my art is in your care? Or if you accidently cut it in half? (The art, not the building.) If the framer doesn't inquire about the value of the art, he can't possibly answer this question honestly. </font>
  • Will the moulding you're showing me be available in five years? Unless you're looking at Nielsen #15 silver, I'd be suspicious of anyone who promises this. </font>
  • Will the matting and backing comply with FACTS PMMB-2000 standards? This should narrow the field substantially. If you're uncertain, ask the framer to recite the standards. :eek: </font>
  • Is this worth framing? How a framer answers this may tell you more than all the other questions put together. </font>
 
Mel, My question would NOT be "Do all qualified framers belong to FramerSelect?" but rather "Are all members of FramerSelect qualified framers?"

And by 'qualified,' I don't mean someone who has all the answers. Maybe it's someone with enough smarts and experience to know their limitations and AVOID DOING ANY HARM.
 
On second thought, maybe there should be a required "perservation/conservation mind-set" course added to the "Good Framer" list.

I just heard that a local, well respected (?!) framer has put fabric hockey stick tape all around around the tacking edge of an unframed (client did't want frame!)$100,000 oil on canvas, to give a "finished look" to the piece. Framer has assured client that this tape is conservation quality!

Rebecca
 
<<Will the matting and backing comply with FACTS PMMB-2000 standards? This should narrow the field substantially. If you're uncertain, ask the framer to recite the standards.>>

All right Ron!! See how just that phrase becoming known would change the face of framing? Framers would know and so would customers.

I digress, I wrote an article for a local newspaper once and in it I suggested the customer actually visit the shop, not just call on the phone and don't just shop price. Look at the samples on the wall and take a test piece for framing. If everything looks good and the framer can talk about all aspects of preservation framing, then leave it and see how the work looks and how professional the framer was throughout the transaction. None of that is infallible, but it's a start.

Nona Powers, CPF, GCF
www.nonapowers.com
 
Originally posted by Ron
Will the matting and backing comply with FACTS PMMB-2000 standards? This should narrow the field substantially. If you're uncertain, ask the framer to recite the standards[/URL][/qb]
Click to expand...
All right Ron!! See how just that phrase becoming known would change the face of framing? Framers would know and so would customers.

I digress, I wrote an article for a local newspaper once and in it I suggested the customer actually visit the shop, not just call on the phone and don't just shop price. Look at the samples on the wall and take a test piece for framing. If everything looks good and the framer can talk about all aspects of preservation framing, then leave it and see how the work looks and how professional the framer was throughout the transaction. None of that is infallible, but it's a start.

Nona Powers, CPF, GCF
www.nonapowers.com

You have no idea how much trouble I had posting this. Sometimes my computer limitations are a trial!!
 
Just a few thoughts.

My first thought when reading Ron's initial post was, "Ask questions. Ask LOTS of questions." But how do you ask questions, when you don't know what questions to ask? Perhaps Rebecca and Nona could do articles for Decor and PFM on the right questions to ask.

Then, do it up into those handout brochures for framers to give ALL their customers, or mail them to their mailing list. (I write an anticle for a local monthly newspaper, and this month's article is on Preservation Framing.)

Then, not only do matboard etc people need to post which materials adhere to FACTS standards, framers could actually advertise that too. (I know that a lot of us sometimes do, and sometimes don't adhere to them depending on the item to be framed, but the customer needs to know, that we know how.) At least if we post that, a customer can say "What's FACTS?" and open the dialogue.

But, there will always be the person that "talks a good game", but an educated customer is a more prepared customer, and it's our duty to educate them.

Oh, and on FramerSelect, they called me (again) just yesterday about joining. I asked about this "homebased" thing. Seems that since I have a separate, dedicated space, and a "real setup" (corner sample display, and all the things a "real" framer has: tax #, EIN #, business license, etc) that yeah, I could join! (Hope I don't get anybody there in trouble for posting this.)

I think I'm beginning to get over my paranoia of what other framers think of me since I am "homebased". Many thanks to all of you for that.

Betty
 
Occasionally museum personnel, art galleries, appraisers, or conservators are willing to name names. I knew of one paper conservator who offered to teach a seminar to framers, who could afterward pledge to "do it right" in return for a spot on her Short List which was given to clients upon completion of repair work.
 
From the title I figures that this thread might have something to do with Clint Eastwood???

To find anyone good at any job, kwite simple really just make sure that they take pride in the work that they do.
 
Have you ever noticed that when you have a lot of work to do, esp. with deadlines, you look for almost any other activity to keep you away from it? Like deboning a chicken when you should be studying? The Grumble is fast becoming by favorite tool for procrastination!

Back to topic though. Perhaps your professional organizations, like the PPFA, are the appropriate agencies to help customers find a good framer. I typed "picture framer" into Google, and PPFA came up at the bottom of the first page. In this site there is only a little bit for the layperson about what goes into framing, but this could really be expanded into a useful educational tool for the consumer (and rogue framer).

There could be Informative and Easy to Read sections on matboards, the pros (?) and cons of drymounting, hinges and their alternatives, options for framing oversize pieces...movie posters (had to get that in there), types of "Plexi" , glass etc.etc.

There could also be a section on "How to select a framer" (including what questions to ask) which goes into more detail than just "they should be a PPFA member". Heck, you guys could write all that stuff easily!

These could also be printed up and distributed at art galleries, framing stores etc.

These aren't original ideas - I've actually borrowed the concepts from my own professional organizations (American Institute for Conservation and Canadian Association for Conservation). Just like in the framing profession, there have been a lot of growing pains in my field, and work put into educating the public about the difference between a restorer and a conservator.

The FACTS site is good, but not as user friendly as it could be, and didn't come up on the first 10 of the search. I really liked the learnaboutmovieposterframing.com idea. Seriously.

Rebecca
 
Good Framer-----Sue Heim
Bad Framer -----EVERYBODY ELSE.
 
First off, is it really the questions we need to teach the clients, or the words. My husband calls it framer speak..

Does the framer understand ..
Outgas, zeolite, conservation/preservation, UV light, acid free verses acid buffered. Is the framer willing to say I don't feel comfortable with this project But "X" frame shop does those very well, Those that can talk the talk; I have found, on average will walk the walk.

Location has nothing to do with a good "framer". The best framer in town maybe your local Gallery or may be in "Uncle John's house or even your local craft store or big box.
A customers best bet in finding a good framer is in stoping in to annoy us by asking nosey questions that may have nothing to do with a project at all and getting a feel for them. We all tend to end up in Framer speak with out even relaizing it. A Good start would be to look at a piece that is hanging and ask about it.

We can recomend fellow framers but if our customer takes a dislike to them our recomendation will mean nothing. Every time a client brings us a project they have to take it on faith that we will do things as we said we would so your best indicator will always be gut instinct.

Jill Hennes CPF
Omro Gallery
 
After 5 years of watching and learning about this industry, it seems to me that the very qualities that make a great framer are often not visible to the average customer. This is too bad.

Think about what Ron started out saying:
If anything good can come out of the (evergreen slug) movie poster thread, maybe it is this:
Click to expand...
That a good framer can be great at framing and yet remain humble and be viewed by his peers as a team player. "Do no harm" applies to the client as well as the art. No framer is an island. And when they try to be, the customer suffers. A framer that is always hungry for business as well as knowledge will approach each situation with a healthy attitude that is not over confident nor arrogant. This will be to the benefit of the art, the client, the framers reputation, and the bottom line.

Start here, apply all of the above wonderful comments, and the rest will all fall into place.
 
We have noted out of the fifteen years in the framing industry that the people in whom we deal with are all different. Some are more pleasant than others. We take the bad with the good and we try to learn from criticisms and not stoop to meet the lows. If we are criticized after showing our customers the best way possible to display and protect their frameables by them saying that the price is too high, then we have done our job right.
Quality does have a price.

Good framing is our aim. Bad framing is at the customer’s request. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder. If our taste varies greatly from the customers (even though we tried to give our opinion) we just smile and hold our nose till the stink goes away. :D
 
If I was a customer looking for a good framer, what questions would I ask?
That is tough because the questions relate to my knowledge of framing...if I was an ignorant customer - how the heck would I know to ask "how they would attach the artwork?"

I suppose the first thing I would ask the potential framer is - I have this piece of work I'd like framed - do you have any suggestions? ;)
I believe it is up to the sales staff to educate and inform the client of our standards in framing.
We ask questions and develop (or try to) a rapport with the client.

We ask the client what type of glazing they would prefer...90% of the time - we then go into detail of the pro's and con's of each type we offer. We do not wait for the client to ask us.

One of the major factors of potential clients coming into our shop and leaving their work here is that we are helpful, informative, creative, and courteous - almost to the extreme.

If I was an ignorant customer wanting to find a good framer...those are the attributes I would be looking for. What sorts of questions would I use to determine that? No idea - it is a feel or rapport you develop with the individual.
 
I doubt many people would be willing to go around to every framer in town with a laundry list of questions before deciding who to bring their framing business to. In our experience, people will "ask around" for a recommendation and/or see something nicely framed in someone else's house or business and ask who did the work. Just answering questions "correctly" would not be a guarantee of quality work.
 
Do you trust the individual running the business and/or the framer! Of course, some trust movie posters will last longer in cheap! It's all realtive.

I've had more than one person bring in a piece to be framed to see what kind of work we do, if they like our work they'll bring in more. Turned out to be some of our best customers. Word of mouth is still the best advertising.
 
A customer come into our shop today with an unusual greeting, "You passed the test." It was her 2nd visit and she said she was so pleased with the first frame job we did for her, that she has decided to bring many more jobs to us.
It sure made our day! ;) Just wish more customers would do this... test all of us framers, that is.
 
Ron,

This is a very good and real question. I've been asked this a number of times and I think that Nona's approach is also realistic and valid.

Originally posted by nona powers:
.....I suggested the customer actually visit the shop, not just call on the phone and don't just shop price. Look at the samples on the wall and take a test piece for framing. If everything looks good and the framer can talk about all aspects of preservation framing, then leave it and see how the work looks and how professional the framer was throughout the transaction..............
Click to expand...
I've actually proposed to customers to follow a similar guideline with a daunting list of "Questions"........wouldn't you feel a bit under the microscope if customers actually asked you some of these?

Rather, I suggest the following to a valued customer who is looking for a new framer in their new community.</font>
  • First - I grab a PPFA Directory to provide the customer with a list of member frame shops in the community to which they are relocating. (Membership can indicate a concern to where our industry is heading.)</font>
  • I then suggest the customer should determine if the shop they visit has a framer on staff who is certified. (This can indicate that <u>the individual</u> cares about their own credentials and advancement.)</font>
  • Third - I suggest that the customer look around the shop they are visiting. Is it clean? tidy? Well organized? (The logic here is that if the framer doesn't care about their own appearance and image, then this might transfer over to how your artwork is handled.) </font>
If the shop can pass this three point test, then you are probably in good hands. As Nona indicated, this is NOT failsafe, but gives a customer moving away something to start with....
John
 
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