Glueing & nailing procedure

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Dancinbaer

Dancinbaer

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Posts
1,267
Loc
De Pere, WI
While framing at home I always ordered my frames joined. Now I own a shop with vices and nailers so I figure I should use them. So....

1)How much glue (Corner Weld) do I need on a corner.

2)I know that one short side and one long side gets joined first. Then the second set of one of each gets joined. What is the correct method to join the two together to complete the frame?

Thanks....

PS I'm saving for an underpinner
 
First of all - congratulations on your new shop!

I found it was best to have some system and join the frames the same way every time. When I put two rails in the corner vice, I have 'long on the left'. I know some framers prefer 'little on the left'. It doesn't matter so long as you always do it the same way. This helps avoid the construction of Escher frames - everyone who's built one knows what those are.

Stain the outside edges of the cut face an appropriate color. Gray ink works really well if you don't have a stain color to match the wood.

Smear a thin layer of CornerWeld on the end of one rail. If globs of glue ooze out when you join the two ends in the vice, you have too much glue.

Until you get the underpinner, cross nail the corners with two or more nails, depending on the height of the frame - shadowboxes need more nails, e.g. Position the second nail so it doesn't run into the first one.

If the table of the vice isn't level with your work surface, you may need to support long rails when joining corners 3 and 4.

Fill the nail holes with colored putty. You already know that you can mix these together to get the right color, yes?

On scroll-y frames, the resin that makes up the surface decoration can be carved to get a better match of ups and downs in the corners. Paint or stain the places where you've cut away the resin.

If possible, let the glue dry for a couple hours or overnight before fitting the piece.

Hope that's helpful.

Kit
 
Kit, I think you covered it quite nicely!
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When I have to use vises to join frames I don't cross nail the corners. I just put the nails in the "top" and "bottom" sides. I do this because I don't like the look of putty on the corners, and besides I was told that cross nailing weakened rather than strengthened the corners.

Congrats on your new shop! Have fun with it!
 
I never had an underpinner until this shop. Always did it the way Kit describes.

I will add one little thing: I found it helped to pre-drill the nail holes, or they'd sometimes go in crooked and out the top of the frame! I used a brad a size smaller than the one going into the frame, cut the little head off and use it as your drill bit. Pre-drill, then tap your nails in, set, and fill with putty.

For supports for the long rails, as Kit also mentioned, I made them from 3-sided fomecor "tubes".

I joined two corners at a time, let cure, and then join the two halves in the vises. We still glue before we v-nail.
 
I meant, we still glue and let cure in the vise for awhile, then we v-nail. (Of COURSE we still glue before we v-nail...silly me!)
 
Thanks everyone for the advice and to Kit for the details. One step I'm still foggy on is the final joining of the two "halves".

Do I put glue on both corners, put one corner in the vise, nail that corner then quickly remove it to put the final corner in the vise and nail it.

OR

Put glue on one corner vise and nail, then when that has set, gently spread the final corner, get glue into the joint, then vise and nail.
 
The short answer is Yes.

For small moulding and frames you need to put glue on both ends then glue it up together. For big frames you can get away with doing one at a time.

Use two vises when putting the last two sides together. That way the glue has a chance to set up before you take it out of the vise.
 
I use a piece of string with three plastic corners and a locking fourth corner. set the frame up on a flat surface pull the string tight and check all four corners to make sure of fit. Loosen stringput glue on one piece of trim at all four corners, be sure to use enough that you have some squeeze out, pull the string tight once again, it will sound like a guitar string and is not hard to do, readjust corners if needed making sure they fit properly. Clean up squeeze out with damp rag. Let glue set 15 minutes if you are using Corner Weld longet for other glues. Release string and nail corners with v nails or pins in from the edge as described above. For a thick frame you may have to use two stirngs one at the bottom and one at the top of the edge. Gives a perfect frame everytime!!!!!!
 
My thinking is if you need to ask how to glue a frame, you need to put the tool down and back away slowly.
 
Originally posted by Mr. Bean:
My thinking is if you need to ask how to glue a frame, you need to put the tool down and back away slowly.
Click to expand...
If that were the case then nobody would be glueing frames or should I assume you were born with the knowledge and experience to glue frames.


PS Welcome to the Grumble anyway....
 
I never liked that show. Much prefered Rowan Atkinson when he was doing the Black Adder series.

Kit

PS - What Bob said.
 
Congrats on the new shop.

While I wish you the best I will totally hijack this thread (please forgive me) to ask what kind of statement does a question like this make about our craft?

Is this industry so simple that it can be reduced to a vice and an "OPEN" sign?

Umm on second thought, don't answer that!

I don't think I'm grumpy but this question, like other similar questions, just insults me. I'll get over it.

Ohh to answer the question I wonder if you could use the same carpet glue that was suggested in an other thread about mounting a poster? Its worth a try!

Carry on.
 
Originally posted by Jay H:
Congrats on the new shop.

While I wish you the best I will totally hijack this thread (please forgive me) to ask what kind of statement does a question like this make about our craft?

Is this industry so simple that it can be reduced to a vice and an "OPEN" sign?

Umm on second thought, don't answer that!

I don't think I'm grumpy but this question, like other similar questions, just insults me. I'll get over it.

Ohh to answer the question I wonder if you could use the same carpet glue that was suggested in an other thread about mounting a poster? Its worth a try!

Carry on.
Click to expand...
Well Jay,
I guess that puts you and Mr. Bean in the same boat. You were both born with all the knowledge and experience of framing. Leaving the rest of us mere mortals to ask questions so we may also gain the knowledge and experience of those that have asked questions before us. I humbly bow before both of you sirs.
 
“Trying to bring this thread back to a more civilized discussion”, he said, naively …

Kit did an excellent job of describing the process. We all work a bit differently, so my minor contribution/variations to this are the following:

I usually try to get enough glue on the surface so that it just begins to ooze out of the joint. This, to my mind, insures that I have managed to get enough glue to cover the entire surface of the mitered rails. The wet glue wipes off easily with a moist paper towel (water sometimes, but, if no one is watching, spit). The exception are those “barn boardey”, rough surfaced rails where getting into those nooks and crannies is not only difficult, but likely to remove some of the washed surface.

And, with the exception of very large and heavy frames, I don’t cross nail. Although cross nailing will make a slightly stronger joint, for esthetic reasons, I only nail through the top and bottom rails (the rails parallel to the floor and ceiling). The rails on the side of the frame are more likely to be seen once the frame is hung, so I try to avoid having nail holes to hide. If the joints are properly glued, the added nail shouldn’t make a lot of difference.
 
Denny, years ago in Fine Woodworking Magazine the was an article on the proper way to join a miter joint. I don't use the technology to the fullest, but here goes...
Apply a small amount of glue to both surfaces, spread evenly and clamp under pressure for 15 minutes (time of clamping will have changed with the advent of faster setting glues). Remove the clamp and break the joint open. Reapply a thin layer of glue and clamp under pressure until the glue has set and dried. Mechanical fasteners can be added at this time.
The idea is to force the glue as far into the open grain of the miter joint as possible. The amount of glue needed to make the joint strong (relative) varies inversely with the density of the wood being joined...the more dense the wood, the less glue necessary.
Predrilling is crucial in more dense woods, but is a good idea in all miter joints. A brad can be used, but there are also drill bits avaiable that actually cut a hole instead of displacing material.
Remember to dry fit the joint before gluing, and that you can put a glued joint together and take it apart quickly to see how the glue coverage is.

Jay, I think the roll of Eyore has already been cast.
 
Denny
If you use corner weld and leave the joint clamped together for 15 minutes you may find it extremly hard to break back apart as the previous message suggested doing.
 
Thank you to those who graciously contributed their wisdom. I will go forth and join.
 
I have to agree with Ron.

Smooth post, Mr. Bean. I hope you aren't a string bean. Those of us who have been around Denny long enough to appreciate him know that

1. He's a really nice guy and is only trying to improve his trade. Smartassed answers aren't very well received on the Grumble when someone starting out is obviously not in touch with the flow of the program.

2. Denny is one BIG guy and I sure wouldn't want to <strike>**** him off</strike> get on his wrong side!! He may be a ballroom dancer but I'll bet he can kick some serious butt if needed to give a reality check.

Oh, and Denny, Jay is one of the most unbiased people when it comes to insults so don't think he singled you out on purpose. He has done that to most everyone here at one time or another. It's just that some won't admit it and others will.

You had a real good start with Kit's post and somebody should have probably closed the thread after that. Just remember, if anything goes wrong with any of your joins, it was probably Kit's fault.

Framerguy
 
Ray, did you read the part in the parentheses? :rolleyes:
 
Sure did just wanted to add some emphasis to the 15 minute part. So Denney didn't wind up messing up an expensive moulding. Another problem with this method is some times you get a build up of adhesive that will not let the corner pull back up tight. OK for woodworking buy not frame making. Best put it together and leave it.
I am also an accomplished woodworker by trade.
ray
 
I should have referred my response to a different thread. I should have known that it would be received as an insult or a roadblock. My nose is parallel with the floor and hope it always remains so. As a human my pride and love for this trade does effect my opinion.

Ok so the carpet glue was a bit tongue in cheek. But again that was somebody elses response to an equally common question (and not my response either).

My post is only indirectly related to this specific question.

Happy Glueing!
 
Originally posted by Jay H:
I should have ................I should have .................. a bit tongue in cheek................ But.............
Click to expand...
I knew someone like you once Jay - always had to go places twice - second time to apologise!

This post is of course very T.I.C. and maybe I should have.... whatever.
 
Wally I am not pokeing any fun at your Woodworking Magazine article ,but did you really join,break and rejoin corners? Or are you still doing so? I understand the premisis of penertraing the wood to the maximum depth with the glue but with most Framing moulding is that really necessary? I have seen some miters become almost sealed to the point of loking GLAZED when disassembled by the dried glue on the surface ,so how does it help penertrate any deeper?

Now you may understand why my Old Carpenter Dad couldn't stand to do Wood work with me .LOL
BUDDY
 
25 years ago last month I went to framing school for one week. A few weeks later, I opened my first frame shop. I didn't know much, but, like Denny, I had the guts and the willingness to try. 25 years later, I'm still framing, still asking questions and still learning.

I didn't have a wonderful resource like the Grumble to help me learn. Trial and error was my teacher. Thanks for the Grumblers that can step in and help people like Denny (Dancinbear)and like me! Basically, all of us.

Attitudes like the one you introduced yourself with (Mr. B) here would have scared many of us away, but here we still are, giving back, teaching, and being taught, and supporting each other in our efforts.

There is no such thing as a STUPID QUESTION here. In these days of automation, underpinners, etc. many would be stumped at the very thing Denny is asking about. It's only a matter of learning how to use the tools.

I hope you'll continue to share on the Grumble, just maybe in a more supportive manner. And feel free to ask any questions YOU may have, unless you know all there is to know about framing.

At any rate, welcome to the Grumble. I think.
 
Buddy, what Wally failed to mention was that over the next few months, the woodworking collective in more than a few magazines and E-zines took that writer to task and laughed him back to MicroSoft where he resides in Building #24, third floor North hall 18th cubie line, #8 on the left. LOL

Denny, when you are talking "vise" it's helpful to know whether you are talking a "framers corner vise" which is great for fillets doing about 4 frames a day... or a 4" machinest vise, which is a work horse and great for knocking out any frames larger than 5x7 and up to 6" wide heavy gold frames....

If we are talking the latter.... check in with Val about pre-drilling. I like a 1/2horse motor mounted to the table with a light switch mounted in the table top next to it. On the shaft mount a Jacobs chuck.

Chose the nails you will be nailing with, and nip off the heads. Lay the tip on the anvel part of the vice and smack hard with the hammer. This will spoon the tip and make a better drill.

Spin the nail into the chuck and pre-drill only the right end as you hold the moulding facing you. [Rabbit towards you] This will allow you to put the nails in the moulding because your left hand will be holding the moulding you are nailing.

Place a thin smear on all mating surfaces. Place the first long end in the vice [rabbit facing away from you] so that a short bit sticks out to the right, and the remainder hangs left. Marry up the first short end with the largest nail in the hole and almost protruding. You may want the piece to stand forward about a 64th of an inch... it will seat forward with the nailing as the largest spike will be angled backward. It takes about three or four frames to get this feel down pat.

Have gentley sloped stands [about 12-15 degree slope] to put under the frames to support as you add legs 3 & 4. Nail right on around, don't stop. Set flat on a table for an hour, then you can hang up if you need to.
 
Denny's setup is like this. He has two caste iron Stanley-type vises on two corners of a large workbench. They are recessed so that the top of each vise is flush with the work surface and the frames can rest comfortably as they are being glued and nailed.

Like the rest of the shop, it was thoughtfully set up by the previous owner.

Four frames/day is probably a reasonable goal for his market and hours.

I feel sorry for framers who think you can't join frames without an underpinner or cut mats without a CMC.
 
Is a "mat" that cardboard with the colour wallpaper stuck to it? Well, it started somewhere anyhow...
 
The more I read this thread and think about all the replies and how some are sarcastic and others are very defensive,I am truely amazed at how similar some of the lack of information some beginners have is to what I started with.

Most of us at this point in our profession would seriously suspect that anyone attempting to do Professional Framing has had some sort of Framing instruction before jumping into a Business that depends on their knowledg of the subject.

However as condesending as that may sound I can truthfully tell you that when I assembled my very first frame I wasn't at all sure if I needed to "BACK DRILL" and secure the corner with "BRADS" ( or what back drilling meant or how it was acchieved).And in fact while I had Stanley vises and a fairly good wood working glue ,I actually remeber assembling frames without any BRAIDS ,V-Nails or any other retainning device. And miraculously they HELD. Of course I did a lot fewer frames then and I could allow the legs to sit in the vise for a much longer time.Furthermore I don't recommend that proceedure now, even though I have seen and heard that some glues form a tighter bond then the actual wood when properly applied.

My point is we all learned by trial and error and a lot can be learned from NETWORKING with fellow farmers on forums like this,but so can a lot of our Mistakes ,bad opinions ,and just bragadocious BS.

So I would highly suggest that anyone who is at all serious go to a professional class or seminar as soon as possible ( preferably immediately) to learn the fundimentals.

I know because after doing what I just related I attended several classes includeing PFE with the Carithers in Jackson Mississippi, A local class at UNO taught by one of my PPFA chapter presidents and competitor, and every Beginners Class PPFA had to offer at their trade shows. and many of LJ 's classes as well as those of Decor and PFM.And now I am still asking dumb questions like the one I asked Wally.

So Denny welcome but get some trainning that you can compare against all the suggestions and opinions so you will have a head start on what just may be worth attempting. And I mean that in the Most helpfull sort of way, having "BEEN THERE DONE THAT and STILL AM".And believe me No One has all the answers ,so you need as many to compare with as you can get and Acredited Classes from acknowledge instructors ( who they are is a good thing to ask on forums like this) are the best starting point IMHO.
BUDDY
 
This is getting ridiculous.

Not that Denny owes anyone an explanation, but he's already given one. He's been buying his frames pre-joined until now, and he's ready to start joining his own. At some point, he'll be wanting to buy some length and cut his own, but I'll bet he'll think twice before looking for any guidance here.

I'm not Denny's big brother, but I've known him for maybe three years and he was framing for some time before that. He's been cutting some amazing mats without benefit of a CMC, mounting and framing objects and generally doing some very good work.

He just hasn't been joining frames.

Here's a dirty little secret that I've already mentioned 10-12 times in previous posts. When I am busy and I'm getting free delivery, I'll buy frames prejoined from companies like Evald that do a good job joining them and don't charge an extra 40%.

I have a Cassesse underpinner and more vises (and vices) than I can count.

Let's just think twice before we imagine we know all about someone asking for some basic advice.
 
Amen and AMEN!!

You continue to enjoy yourself, Denny, and keep that smile shiny and bright. That's one thing I do remember about the few photos I have seen of you. You always look like you are enjoying yourself. I do hope that this particular incident doesn't put a damper on that or on your learning.

You have been on the Grumble long enough to know from the projects posted and the advice given through the years who to trust for that type of advice for which you are seeking. If nothing else, I would suggest e-mailing those who you feel can help you without becoming self promoting or rude about it.

I wish you good learning and good luck in getting those joins down pat. Oh, and keep saving that pocket change for a good quality underpinner. You will be glad you did.
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FGII
 
Thanks Ron and Framerguy and some others for your support.

And for those "Professionals" who feel threatened by my inexperiance, here is a SMALL sampling of what I've done over the past four years.
Dancin' Baer Custom Frames
All with a Logan Simplex 750 Plus and a very inexpensive circle cutter.

Buddy, FYI, my first frame was done while taking a six week class taught by a retired framer with over 30 years experience. During that class I did infact glue and nail the frame. But as I stated in my original post limited space at home required I order all my frames joined. My post was intended to refresh my memory.......sorry I asked.
 
Hi Denny,
I am just weighing in with another comment on joining corners three and four.

I like to glue each separately. That is, glue the two L's together, let it sit and then gently pry apart the unglued miter to glue corner #4. If it is a chunky moulding sometimes it just can't be pried, but usually I can coax some glue in there with a razor blade.

Also if I have a bunch of frames to build, say more than 10, I will build me a mess of L's, and after letting them sit a bit (10-15 mins) I will hang them off the edge of my counter undisturbed while I build more L's. It's amazing how quickly they go together when you gang them in this 'assembly-line' fashion.

Also, I do what Baer does, that is, coat each surface to be glued with the glue. That is as simple as coating one surface of the mitered piece with glue, pressing it against the adjoining surface, backing it off and then joining it. Baer calls that the mating surface, this would be the first kiss, then!

Heed what the others have said here about coloring the raw miter and carving raised areas to even them up. Don't try for an exact match on that colored miter, the trick is to just camouflage the raw wood.

Good luck in your new shop, Denny! Let us know how it goes.

edie the peelingglueoffmyfingersrightnow goddess
 
Denny...welcome to the Grumble. Your web page shows that you do know what you are doing...good design!

I've always said that an expert is someone who knows what they know and knows where to get advice or send someone when they do not know something.

I hope you continue to participate in this forum because I'm sure you have much to contribute.

Dave Makielski
 
I joined frames for several years with Stanley miter vises before finally buying underpinners. In my limited experience, almost any method of gluing & nailing may be acceptable if it is done right. That said, I'm not sure about the tensioned string mentioned by one of the above. The main difference is convenience and labor time, but an underpinner is definitely the best way to go, as soon as you can afford it.

I preferred to use four vises. First, I would fit up all four corners to make sure there were no unnoticed warps or flawed cuts. Some chop services are better than others, so you might want to invest in a miter sanderif you haven't already. That tool will be useful forever.

If all is well withy the fits, then I would loosen two opposing rails and apply glue to both ends of them, leaving the other two rails tight in the vises. With the glued rails carefully positioned and retightened in the vices, the next step is to wipe off oozed glue. A dry toothbrush is OK for this, but a wet one is better, followed by a paper towel.

Always pre-drill. I suggest a real drill bit, which removes material. A brad may be used, too, which simply displaces material, but still reduces ther possibility of splitting the grain, and makes nailing easier.

Whether to cross-nail is a decision to be made based on hardness of wood, area of glued profile, and size of frame. Generally, I like to nail only the top & bottom rails to avoid nail holes showing on the sides. But a big, snotwood, small profile frame would get cross-nailed.

When it's time to upgrade your tools, I suggest spending about $350 for a good pneumatic pinner. (Plus $some for a compressor if you don't have one now.) Mine tool is an Omer, from AMS, which will drive 28-gauge pins up to 1-1/8" long. This sort of tool is much faster than drilling/nailing, and if you get small-diameter pins, the holes are almost invisible. And later, after you get your underpinner, the pinner will still be useful for joining deep shadowbox frames and perhaps for repairing loose miters on frames customers drag in.

And as soon as possible, start saving for purchase of an underpinner. I skipped the manual devices and went straight to a pneumatic machine. The price difference, in my case, was paid back by time savings in about a month. What a deal.
 
Originally posted by Dancinbaer:
And for those "Professionals" who feel threatened by my inexperiance, here is a SMALL sampling of what I've done over the past four years.
Dancin' Baer Custom Frames
All with a Logan Simplex 750 Plus and a very inexpensive circle cutter.
Click to expand...
Denny, I think you've done some excellent work with the tools that you've been using the last four years. You've cut some pretty nice looking corner designs without the help of a CMC. Keep up the great work.
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<font size=3>Hey, Mr. Bean, you see that??</font size=3>

Nice work, Denny. Many could learn from you!
 
The only input I would offer to the terrific advice already given is to consider nailing the sides rather than the top and bottom. ....

Because ....

The glue actually holds the frame together ... the nails (or v-nails) merely keep the sucker from falling apart if the glue fails.

If nailed from the sides, the force of wire actually helps to pull the nails in tighter. Also, if the glue DOES fail, the weight of the piece will not force the nails out from the bottom.

[ 08-15-2006, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: FramingFool ]
 
Right, and if you use small brads and put them toward the back (side ones), and the bottom ones toward mid-to-front, and mix your filler putty to match, they're really not very noticeable.
 
OK Denny and any one else who thought i was putting Denny and his ability down;
Please reread my post. I was trying my damnedest yo tell you that what ever newbie question or mistake you have ever made you will have to go some to beat mine.

I also was suggestion ,NO make that out right telling you to get that training that you seemed to already have so you will know when some of the EXPERTS here are just giving their methods or opinions which are like *** wholes everybody has one ( including ME) But if you have a firm base you can listen and wade through all the BS and Sarcasm to use what is helpful while ignoring all the Egotistical Babel you will hear on this and any other forum. While networking is very nice and helpful I doubt that many of us truly know the other participants ( save Ron and yourself) and how much different they are in person ,but more importantly if they are giving a bias opinion or trying to promote a personal belief or giving you tried and tested techniques.

Now if you think I am anti Newbie ( or anti Denny ) you are very much mistaken. I have absolutely no axe to grind and wish I could help everyone who wants my help . And I wish I had the credentials to be an accredited Instructor for what ever talent I have to share.But alas with my very poor ability to make myself understood that is very unlikely to happen and even with what mats I may have produced, nothing I have done is in any more demand than what anyone else can and does do.

If you feel you have been attack unjustly Denny I can fully sympathize ( I have been there too and think I am still.).
BUDDY
 
Originally posted by BUDDY:
...If you feel you have been attack unjustly Denny I can fully sympathize ( I have been there too and think I am still.).
BUDDY
Click to expand...
We all get flamed on occasion, don't we?
But Buddy, we all love ya. :D
 
Here's what I find most interesting about this thread (other than the fact that I don't seem to be able to just let it go):

We consider frame-joining to be one of the most basic skills a framer should acquire. Yet, from experienced framers, we have at least three different opinions about where to place the brads (if we are nailing.) Cross-nail, top-and-bottom or sides. You can make a good case for each of these.

Most of us would agree that you need glue AND some kind of mechanical fastener, but there are framers who would argue that you can eliminate one or the other.

Other than the fact that I've visited Denny and I've seen his work, there are a couple of reasons I may be more sympathetic to his situation.

When I opened my shop in 1977, I had almost no framing experience and zero training. The framing was secondary to the retail photo operation, but I took orders on the very first day and learned, largely, by trial-an-error. (If I could issue a recall for all the errors, I could keep busy, and broke, for the rest of my life.)

The other reason is this: I've moved from being a full-time store-front framer to a very casual, part-time basement framer who pays the bills doing something totally unrelated.

Denny is moving in the opposite direction. I'm not envious, but I'm kind of excited for him.
 
When I built MY first frame I had absolutely NO experience at framing. And I didn't have the time nor the knowledge of workshops to go to any shows or attend any type of training for framing. I learned almost everything I knew from other framers whom I met and asked questions of and by reading about framing. To insinuate that it is obligatory to have prior training to be a "professional" framer is so off key that it doesn't even rank in the "insulting" category. It is just plain ignorant.

Most of the framers I knew back then had either taught themselves how to frame, had a woodworking background as I did and was naturally interested in anything that had to do with using wood, or had worked under a professional framer and picked their brain for all the information they could get. It was over 10 years later when I found the Grumble and it was like a whole new world had opened up for me in what I could learn and the ideas that were out there for the asking and sharing with others!

I applaud Denny and anyone else that is gutsy enough to step out into another career and make an effort to learn the basics of the trade. If we weren't here to help him and others along the way (along with helping ourselves when we have problems), he would be left with the path I had to take or maybe something even less encouraging to follow.

The really sad thing is that those who are first to put down another's attempts at learning something are usually the ones who, if they got off their high horse and quit trying to impress everyone around them, could be so very helpful and make such a positive contribution to this forum and to those who regularly attend to the postings.

Man, I thank the Good Lord that I am still in the learning stage of framing and I can come here to find new ideas and share with others what I already have learned about framing and about life. It becomes harder to weed through the fantasy and the BS as we grow in our numbers but there is still a veritable wealth of information here for those who want to learn and are willing to ask.

Thanks again Denny, for asking such a basic but important question right here and right now.
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FGII
 
Here we go again!!! I guess it is my turn to take a few lumbs but, Everything I have read here deals with wood frames, how many out there are using the poly-whatever frames and do you use different techniques to cut and join them. Personally so far I have been able to ban them from my shop but who knows one day I may have to give in!!!!
 
Interested in all the vitrial lofted out here, I went back and read every word in this thread.

Mr Bean was an a$$, Jay threw out one of those caustic knee jerk comments he's known for and we all know he regrets the next morning but to late to take back....

Buddy, I re-read twice each post... sorry, I couldn't find a derogatory comment... I have no idea what you are apologizing for.. you did seemed to lament the old school of working for someone to learn the busines... OTJ. Funny how we have gotten away from that system. But it is systemic of our society.... time is to valuable to learn, just throw money at a piece of paper and hang out a shingle.

Budda (Denny) is in no way a newbie... he has shared some fine framing in the past, as well as his great taste in shirts and sailing.

I'm not sure where I want this post to go from here... but maybe it's just my own awareness that maybe the heat, high gas prices, cooling housing market, or a lot of dogs are pissing in a lot of shoes... but people just seem to be cranky lately.

And why the h3ll can't they learn to drive right too!

I'm gonna go back to wrapping some mats.
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Just to clarify...then I'll be quit of it.
The magazine article I read was from the late 70's or early 80's so any speculation about the fate of the author is just that...speculation. The information that was given there was supported by a friend who is a graduate of the Rochester Institute of Technology's School of the American Craftsman in furniture design and construction, an accomplished furniture builder in both NYC and Southern Ca., and now works out of a successful furniture cooperative in Berkley.
Though dated, I feel the information to be trenchant to the query of obtaining a strong miter joint.
 
In a calmer attempt to clarifie MY comments. I was warnning DENNY to be very wary of the motive of even what may seem like helpful suggestions found here and other written forums. But even more ,that since written content does not give any true indication of WHO or WHY a reply is coming from nor what image they are trying to pertray I suggested the IN PERSON ACCREDITED CLASS room traing to start with .Not becuase it is the ONLY method to learn nor an ESSENTIAL method ( Not even I started that way) But IMHO it can be extremly helpful in detrming whose advise is credable and why it may not be.( Most of these have a HANDS ON APPLICATION which is the best way to learn as DENNY experienced alreay)

But the reason for being offended is that my impression of DENNY's respose to mine was that I felt he needed more training and that I agreed with those who said so.( that is why I asked you to reread my reply for. It clearly refutes that concept.)I Clearly said I started with no trainning and made dumber msiatkes than anyone I know.( and yes Ron I was the one who assembled frames with NO secureing devises .But I also said I don't suggest that be done knowing what I do now.)

I also did mean I wish I had enough reputation ,experience ,and credentials to be an instructor of anyone who wanted my advise ( especially the uninformed/NEWBIES to any concept)but my poor communication and misinterpetation as well as misrepresntation ( which some revel in seeing me in) keeps me from being seen in that light while some of the Sarcastic egotis are saught out and their OPINIONS are held as GOSPEL.

Now does that make my position any clearer?
BUDDY
 
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I would like to make a final post on this thread:

First, I want to thank EVERYONE for their comments. Plenty of good advise both related and unrelated to my original question.

Secondly, last night I put the related advise to use. Took the 4th corner of the frame, carefully lifted the long rail above the short rail, applied glue, carefully put the two together and moved them around to spread the glue. Placed them in the vise, alligned them, held the joint with my left hand while tightening the vises with my right. Picked up my trusty pneumatic pinner and POP! POP! nailed.....I mean pinned the sucker. Beautiful if I say so myself.

Thanks again all.

On a different note. I'm finding one big draw back to working the shop part-time is getting the projects done in a timely manner. As of last night my work load to be completed consists of (2) jerseys, (2) 40x50 maps, (1) puzzle, (2) news articles and (2) portraits and (1) poster. I think my customers are very understanding though.
 
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