Glass and Canvas

MatFramer

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I am wondering how many of you are promoting glass on canvas paintings?

I have been doing this the last 6 months or so with a fair amount of success. I always use museum glass for this with a liner or double frame. They come out quite nice.

However, I recently had a customer who placed her order for a canvas. After explaining to her why it should have glass on it, she seemed perfectly happy. She came back the next day after she talked to her sister who is a decorator to inform that her sister did not put glass on hers. I proceeded to explain to her that the latest information on protecting a canvas was to use museum glass with a space. I even offered her the option of trying it and I would remove the glass at no charge if she did not like it after she took it home for 2 weeks. Day 3, she comes back to cancel the entire order because it was just too expensive and her decorator sister said she could get it framed much cheaper than what she was paying. Another part of this is that she picked an Larson frame with a "Y" price code. Yes, it was pricey, but it was a hand finished Italian moulding......

Back to the original question.....are you selling museum glass on canvas?
 

Val

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No. Why would you glaze a canvas painting?? Have I missed something new again and still doing things the dinosaur way?
 

RoboFramer

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I suggest it but it is difficult to sell here. Then once I start on about museum glass people think I'm just pushing the sale up, which I am - but not just for the sake of it.

Work on paper is protected by glass, work on canvas is protected by varnish is the way of thinking. Glass is easy to clean, cleaning an oil is a skill. Removing and replacing the varnish is a bigger one.

Glaze it and you'll proably never have to clean it and nasty crawly things can't get at it either, because you've also sealed the back.

Some people just like to touch oils though.
 

JPete

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Originally posted by Val:
No. Why would you glaze a canvas painting?? Have I missed something new again and still doing things the dinosaur way?
Yes Val, I think a search will turn up threads about this.
 

FramerDave

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Raising this question is like poking a hornet's nest with a stick. This should be fun.

I think it would probably be fair and safe to say the following:

There is a growing trend toward putting glazing on oil paintings. It is mainly for protection against dust, air pollution, lipstick, kids with crayons and other hazards. It is most commonly done when the canvas will be in a public space such as an office lobby or the like.

If it's going to get glazing, then it should be Museum Glass or Optium to preserve the clarity and the traditional no-glazing look of the canvas.

As long as the glazing is separated from the canvas everything should be fine; a great reason to use liners or stacked frames since the glazing can be put between the inner and outer frame.

Since this idea is still fairly new to consumers (look how many framers don't know about it) it can still take some selling skills to get the concept across. So I'd suggest it, but if the customer balks I probably wouldn't press the matter too hard.

MatFramer: Sounds like your customer chickened out. She was influenced by a double-whammy: a relative and an interior desecrator.

[ 07-19-2006, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: FramerDave ]
 

MatFramer

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Originally posted by FramerDave:
Raising this question is like poking a hornet's nest with a stick. This should be fun.

:D :D :D

MatFramer: Sounds like your customer chickened out. She was influenced by a double-whammy: a relative and an interior desecrator.
"interior Desecrator" :D :D :D I like that definition.


Candy
 

Dave

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I will always suggest museum glass on a valuable oil...especially if it is old and needs additional protection. I'll only push the issue if it is going into a public space or the oil is in need of minor restoration and the client isn't interested in spending the money having it restored by a preservator.

Of course spacers or stacked frames should be used when using glazing on an original painting.

Dave Makielski
 

Rebecca

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And as Hugh has often pointed out, unvarnished acrylic paint is especially vulnerable to damage and often can't be cleaned once soiled. So glazing is especially important for them.

I am so happy that many framers are now educating their customers about the value of glazing their canvas paintings! Now needlework/textiles are regularly glazed, I bet in 15 - 20 yrs many types of paintings will be too.

Rebecca
 

Ron Eggers

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But, golly gee, don't oils have to BREATHE?

images


Candy, your customer has a sister? Who's a designer? You were doomed from the start. It's good she canceled BEFORE you did the work.

(Besides the acids in the glass would've eaten a big hole in the canvas.)
 

Framerguy

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(Besides the acids in the glass would've eaten a big hole in the canvas.)


No way, Ron!! It's pretty obvious that you haven't been keeping up on things since you became a ****** being!

Museum glass is totally acid free AND alkaline neutral, so THERE!!

(And that goes for 2 ply AND 4 ply museum glass.)

Framerguy

[ 07-20-2006, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
 

Val

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Quote from Ron: "But, golly gee, don't oils have to BREATHE?"
.
.
.
That's what I was taught! I still have a hard time making myself even put a dust cover on the back of an oil painting! Ha! And I have, under the circumstances that Rebecca and Co. have mentioned (public places, exceptionally dirty atmospheres, etc) recommended glazing oils (with spacers, of course), but on a regular basis? Pushing glazing on oils? Nope.

So what ABOUT "Oils gotta breathe"? (Don't laugh, Ron!) How much air circulation does an oil painting really need then, and would get with glazing and the back sealed? Is "breathing" no longer important? Was it ever important or was it just another framing myth? (Framing Myths, sounds like a good topic for a new thread!) Seems like the cure would be worse than the cause. But then, everytime I turn around lately, something new has come up to dispell many things I learned "then", from the masters!! Were they wrong too? Oh dear.

p.s. I DO push glazing for stitchery now (with spacers, of course), and we were taught that was bad "then" too, so maybe there's hope for me! Geeze, I learn stuff here every day. This one, tho, is a tuffy.
 

Kit

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Guys guys guys

There's a trick to this. I wouldn't tell just anybody but youse guys are my friends.

Cut the glass a little smaller than the frame for needlework or canvas. Stretch it to fit. Stretching opens the pores in the glass and allows it to exhale all of the nasty acidic contaminates.

Don't try this at home. Or in the shop. It's a joke - with apologies to Candy.

Glass on canvas is a tough sell - but so was glass on needlework. I can do this.

Kit
 

Val

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Candy, do you have one of those nifty glass-stretching tools? Where can I get one?? United? ;)
 

Paul N

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Where did this notion of "oil has to breathe" originate?

And what does oil breathe: Oxygen? CO2, good clean air? medium clean air?? Has any research been done to find out the correct ratio of good / bad air to sustain the life of said oil??

Many museums have canvas under glass, for protection, both from human hands and maybe reduce the tons of air, humidity and other environmental influences. What happened to those poor oils sonlaved under glass? Did those museums have to throw them away after decades under glass?? Or maybe restore them if they were somehow still alive?

Enquiring minds really need to know.... ;)

Maybe the Grumbler conservators would shed some light on this subject, once and for all.

Oh, I don't use glass on canvas. But I do protect the back.
 

preservator

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The origins of the notion that inanimate works on
canvas or textile need to "breathe" are lost in the vapors of time. History is replete with examples of works stored in caves, jars, boxes, books, wrapping materials, or protected by backing boards that have been preserved to an astonishing degree. The "drying" of oil paint is
an oxidation reaction and if that slows (due to
the presence of glazing material) the paint film
should benefit. Artists know that overly rapid
drying of paint layers leads to cracking. Sequestering paintings from all the hazards mentioned in this thread does make sense and in
time, that will be more widely appreciated.


Hugh
 

Jim Miller

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Here's one way to frame a painting with glazing. It use aluminum angle stock and no part of the canvas touches the framing materials. The frame may be built oversize, up to about 1/2", to accommodate future keying-out.

Glazing provides the same benefits for canvas paintings that it does for artworks on paper and other substrates.

Dwg-Canvasonedwg7-06.jpg


[ 07-20-2006, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Jim Miller ]
 

Bill Henry-

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Although the pendulum appears to be coming back towards glazing, my understanding of a canvas’ “need to breathe” came from the belief that if air is not allowed to freely circulate around an oil, it will darken more quickly as it oxidizes.

I was told (back in medieval times) that glass will interfere with that circulation so you end up with a muddy image.

Thanks, Jim, for making your image smaller.
 

MatFramer

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Thanks for all your comments.

Kit, no apologies necessary......you gave me a good laugh.

Ron, you are right, I do think I was doomed from the start. She had such a hard time making up her mind. At this point, she will problably go to HOBLOB and they will croak over the idea of glass on canvas.

I will always recommend glass on the canvas prints. The ones that you don't dare get a drop of anything damp near them.
 

imaluma

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I am in total agreeance with those who use glass and backing on canvas.

Acrylic doesn't need to breathe at all, right? And the only "breathing" oils need are for the outgassing while the paint cures... so what's the big deal unless the painting is still fresh?

Acrylic (plexi) is more porous than glass, so my suggestion would be to use museum plexi on any painting of value, and be sure to take all necessary conservation measures, like aluminum barriers and backing.

Unfortunately, I work in a small local chain with several designers and one central frame shop. While the folks at the shop do a great job, they are completely cut off from the rest of the framing community and are, quite frankly, a little snotty. They are completely unwilling to take any suggestions about how they could improve because they think they are all perfect but they are far from it. Since the designers are just as cut off, nobody isinterested in hearing my argument for these things, so I just don't sell it, with the exception of backing on some canvasses. That's ok I guess, since I would only consider selling glazing on very few canvasses that I have seen around here, and my company does not offer museum plexi so oh well.

I'm thinking of putting myself back on the market soon.
 

stud d

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Jim instead of using the metal L moulding (since most can not cut it) you could use a floater. Just make sure the floaters face is covered by the lip of the frame. If it is not it looks bad. So it might take running the length moulding thru a table saw to get a wider rabit. Then cut the floater first and the frame to cap it.

PL
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by imaluma:
...And the only "breathing" oils need are for the outgassing while the paint cures... so what's the big deal unless the painting is still fresh?

Acrylic (plexi) is more porous than glass, so my suggestion would be to use museum plexi...
You are correct, oil paint may off-gas until dry. One conservator commented that it can off-gas even after it has fully dried.

Glazing a painting helps to slow the rate of drying, which is good for the paint. The filmy residue that acumulates inside the glazing is not harmful. So, when the residue becomes visible, clean the glazing and and refit.

You are correct again, that acrylic is not gas-impermeable. However, in terms of off-gassing and the formation of residue on the glazing, I can't imagine there would be any difference between glass and acrylic. The frame would not be completely sealed, anyway, so transfer of moisture and air would still occur, only slower.
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by Patrick Leeland:
Jim instead of using the metal L moulding (since most can not cut it) you could use a floater...
Right you are, Patrick. You could even use L-shaped moulding made for woodwork trim in residential construction, available at most home improvements stores.

Plastic L-shaped stock might be OK, too. Any material that would provide the air space between glazing and paint, and would tbe rigid enough to support the fitting pressure, would be suitable.

A conservator pointed out that it would be a good idea to coat the aluminum (or wood, if that's what is used) to prevent discoloration or chemical reactions with the sides of the canvas.
 

Val

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Quote by Jim Miller: "The frame would not be completely sealed, anyway, so transfer of moisture and air would still occur, only slower."

Jim, when glazing an oil painting, how would you finish the back then? I've read here seal it, not seal it, protect the back, keep it open, etc. Now I'm really confused, and I imagine I'll get a miriad of answers on this too. What's yours?
 

Jim Miller

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Originally posted by Val:
...Jim, when glazing an oil painting, how would you finish the back then? I've read here seal it, not seal it, protect the back, keep it open, etc. Now I'm really confused, and I imagine I'll get a miriad of answers on this too. What's yours?
Conservators are pretty much agreed on that issue, so there's only one right answer to the question of backing paintings on canvas: Use a solid backing board. Do not leave the back exposed, and do not cut vent holes. I suggest using fluted polypropylene, but for routine retail framing, a 4-ply or 8-ply matboard would be OK. Foam center board would be OK, too -- at least for decorative-only canvas transfers.

The word "seal" make me crazy. Framers use that term to describe everything from a paper dustcover to Hugh Phibbs' Marvelseal method, which creates a real, watertight seal.

For a painting on canvas, a paper dustcover is not enough. A solid backing board is needed to provide mechanical protection and to dampen vibrations that could flex the canvas. For routine framing, that's enough. For wet areas or other unusual circumstances, a non-hygroscopic board, such as fluted polypropylene, is recommended. I use it for backing all paintings, because it is also cost effective and easy to work with.
 

preservator

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Please listen to what Jim just said. The canvas
NEEDS protection from pokes from the back and the
backing board will keep the canvas still, when it
is moved. The polyflute he mentioned attached to
the stretcher is standard museum practice.


Hugh
 

Val

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I'm convinced, Hugh.

I'm a changed framer! Anyone else?

Thanks.
 

wpfay

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Originally posted by Bill Henry-:
Although the pendulum appears to be coming back towards glazing, my understanding of a canvas’ “need to breathe” came from the belief that if air is not allowed to freely circulate around an oil, it will darken more quickly as it oxidizes.
Bill, just a thought on that...
Using glazing, rigid backing and a dust cover will not stop gas exchange through osmosis. It will slow it considerably, thereby limiting the available oxygen. Without O2 there is no oxidation. With limited amounts of O2 there is limited oxidation.
The muddiness you refer to might be due to the accumulation of the out-gassed vehicle from the paint's drying process condensing on the inside of the glazing. Periodic cleaning may be necessary.
 

nona powers

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"Conservators are pretty much agreed on that issue, so there's only one right answer to the question of backing paintings on canvas: Use a solid backing board. Do not leave the back exposed, and do not cut vent holes. I suggest using fluted polypropylene, but for routine retail framing, a 4-ply or 8-ply matboard would be OK. Foam center board would be OK, too -- at least for decorative-only canvas transfers."

The Canadian Conservation group, suggest using the fluted polypropylene board for backing but also call for the use of a four ply preservation quality board as a liner to absorb excess moisture in order to keep the moisture content in the empty space balanced. Without the board, wouldn’t moisture build up on the canvas itself?

I’ve heard two different conservators suggest using foam board as a backing board for paintings on canvas and it makes sense because it is a firm backing, it has a cover sheet made of an absorbent paper to handle the moisture problem, plus in the case of Bainbridge’s Artcare foamboard, a scavenger to help with acids in the empty space. Why would it only be suitable for decorative canvas transfers then?
 

Jim Miller

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The article is out

The article this thread inspired, "To Glaze or Not To Glaze", starts on page 60 of this month's PFM.

As I see it :icon9: this framing issue is among the most misunderstood and confusing for artists and framers alike.

Other than visual perfection, can you think of a reason not to use optically-coated, anti-reflection glazing when framing a painting on canvas?
 

preservator

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Acrylic paintings need sheet glazing even more than oils. When the acrylic
paint dries, the water that evaporates leaves countless holes in the surface
of the painting, which can collect dirt. Rather than asking whether inamimate
materials can perform respiration, one should ask whether it is wise to use
the canvas of the painting or the fibers of textile to filter the pollution out
of the air in the room. Perhaps that will change the point of view.


Hugh
 

stud d

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I have painted several acrylics on 8 ply board. These paintings then have a thick layer of parafin over them. It really enhances and highlights the texture in the images. I did a few in the past that were floated inside the same color mat, bout an inch space all around the artwork, before the mat starts. I spaced up the mat with archival foamcor. I like the look, but..

I have some new images. I am thinking about hinging the images to a 4 Ply Rag board. Then mounting the rag board to coroplast using 969 and PVA, then mouting that on black or grey Rag with matching spacers. Floating that in a frame. Then using glazing. I wish I could afford museum glass.

Ok I am rambling, guess i was doing this just to see if anyone has a problem with how or what I am doing. Or if anyone wants to donate a box of museum to a loving person!?

PL
 

HB

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Please listen to what Jim just said. The canvas
NEEDS protection from pokes from the back and the
backing board will keep the canvas still, when it
is moved. The polyflute he mentioned attached to
the stretcher is standard museum practice.


Hugh

How does the polyflute on the back of the stretcher bar keep the canvas from moving when it is attached to the opposite face of the stretcher bars about 3/4" away???
 

Doug Gemmell

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I don't think the backing board keeps the canvas from moving but it does limit its movement. The backing board keeps the air from hitting the back of the canvas and pushing it out (bellows effect).

This is a good reason to use a backing board but I think its main benefit is protection from pokes from behind.

This wouldn't have prevented the damage Steve Wynn caused recently when he ran his elbow into one of his Picasso's.

I'm not a fan of glazing most oil paintings (I'm assuming the Picasso was an oil, could be wrong) but had he had acrylic on it, there wouldn't have been any damage. If it was glass, there may have been big damage to the elbow and probably the painting.
 

Rebecca

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Re the origins of "breathing", my guess is that it all has to do with environment. High humidity in closed containers subjected to temperature drops can result in condensation, salt precipitation, bloom, mold etc. etc.

It's wise to mimimize rapid temperature and humidity changes, (glazing and backboards can slow this down, as can the wise choice of display location - away from heat and cold sources),to keep air volume in the framing system to a minimum, and to have buffering materials like matboard, in closed framing situations to help absorb and release moisture with changes in temperature and exterior humidity.

I'm familiar with how all this is achieved in temperate and controlled climates, and even in uncontrolled cold climates, but am less sure about tropical conditions as I haven't first had experience with them and no direct reason to research them.

Rebecca
 

tnframer408

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This is one of the most fascinating threads ever toappear on "G" IMHO. I'd love to reprint this, minus the "discussion"--like just Jim's coments, Hugh and a few others as to the reasons why we need glazing. Wondering how to do this: just print the whole thread, then do a cut and paste project and do Kinko copies??

In other words, I'll recommend to customers to use museum glass, but they'll look at me like I'm weird or don't know what I'm talking about, and I'd just like to reprint a sheet with ammunition to prove my point.

everything here makes perfect sense to me; just wondering how to get a good condensation of all the expertise found on this thread
 

Framer Dave

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...everything here makes perfect sense to me; just wondering how to get a good condensation of all the expertise found on this thread

Mike, Jim's article in this month's PFM covers all of this thoroughly, and he has input from many conservators, including our Hugh. It's very well researched. Perhaps if you contact PFM they could send you a PDF of it and let you use it.

Hugh also did an article in PFM, earlier this year I think, covering this issue.

Between the two of them you're covered.
 

Val

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You can teach a dinosaur new tricks!

Speaking of glazing canvas....what about glazing giclees on canvas? A customer brought a photo giclee on canvas yesterday, said the printer recommended no glazing. It is very low humidity here in Nevada, but very high at his "other home' in Fiji, and will hang it in his motor home there, so he wanted it to be lightweight, and part-time in his house there. I recommended acrylic, as he will be transporting by air and because of the weight factor and jossling around in the motor home, and we talked about protection i.e. Steve Wynn's Picasso, and that convinced him to ignore the printer's advice and follow mine (with a spacer, of course).

Same concept?

Maybe a little off the subject, but not really...glazing giclees on canvas??? This comes up all the time, and I have changed my dinosaur attitude to recommending glazing on all canvas now...nice to have been able to change my thinking from years past, the "breathing" thing, thanks to the G. I wonder if Paul Frederick has changed his thinking on that too? I'd bet he has! I should call him and ask!

How long does it take to get PFM in hand once the subscription has been made? I made mine 2 weeks ago. Can this article be accessed online?
 

Jim Miller

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How does the polyflute on the back of the stretcher bar keep the canvas from moving when it is attached to the opposite face of the stretcher bars about 3/4" away???

I hope Hugh Phibbs will give a more complete answer, but here's my amateur understanding...

A stretched canvas reacts to vibrations and sound waves in the room by deflecting, similar to the way an audio speaker moves in & out as it produces sound.

Uncovered, in free air, the canvas could easily deflect toward the front & back in reaction to impact or vibrations, and that flexing could weaken the delicate bonds between a painting's layers. To illustrate how flexing is damaging to multiple layers, flex a phone book and watch how the pages rub together.

Closing the frame package with glazing and a solid backing board buffers the effect of vibrations and sound waves. First, the closed package would reduce sound waves inside the frame, just as rolling up a car's windows reduces noise from outside.

Second, movement (deflection) of the canvas in the closed package would have to slightly compress the air on one side of the canvas, while silmutaneously creating a vacuum on the other side. These opposing forces in the closed air space tend to keep the canvas still. Closing only the back of the frame with solid backing, and leaving the front open, reduces the buffering benefit.
 

tnframer408

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Framer Dave:manythanks. Just haven't gotten my mag yet, but will look for it.

O by the bye: why are you now a "grumbler in training?" What happened to your status on here, my man???
 

Jay H

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Other than visual perfection, can you think of a reason not to use optically-coated, anti-reflection glazing when framing a painting on canvas?

Yes, price.

---sidenote---

I can’t recall replacing broken glass in a frame when the print under the glass didn’t have some damage. I’m just guessing, because I’ve never replaced glass on a canvas, but doesn’t it stand to suffer the same fate?

Isn’t it counterproductive to protect a canvas from dirt/environment and subjecting it to an equally dangerous situation of being damaged from broken glass? To me that just trading one danger for another.

If a customer and I decide that the piece needs the extra protection I would not be doing a service by putting glass on it. Arguably a canvas should have shatter resistant glazing or nothing at all. That is if we are honestly concerned about perserving the piece. If this is just another fancy sales gimmick, then disreguard this post. I refer to those more skilled than myself when it comes to gimmicks.
 

Jim Miller

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Other than visual perfection, can you think of a reason not to use optically-coated, anti-reflection glazing when framing a painting on canvas?

Yes, price.

Price affects everything in framing, and the decisions usually have to do with value -- what the customer gets for the price. To the extent that price is a reason to avoid glazing a canvas, would it not also be a reason to avoid glazing everything else?

...I can’t recall replacing broken glass in a frame when the print under the glass didn’t have some damage....Isn’t it counterproductive to protect a canvas from dirt/environment and subjecting it to an equally dangerous situation of being damaged from broken glass?...

Like price, this issue applies equally to all framing. If potential damage from broken glass were a good reason to avoid glazing, then why glaze anything?

Breakage is accidental and presumably unanticipated, but environmental damage, such as soiling is a certainty.

Whatever is to be framed, if glass breakage might be anticipated, then acrylic would be recommended. A traveling exhibit, for example.

And then there's the possibility that whatever breaks the glass would do more damage to the art if it were unprotected, whether it is paper, canvas, or other fragile surface.

Mr. Wynn put his elbow through a multi-million-dollar Picasso recently. If that painting had been glazed with acrylic or laminated glass, it would have saved him a lot of money, and would have spared the damage to that precious artwork.
 

Jay H

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Posts
9,908
From
KY
Often times in these discussions I have a hard time knowing if we are talking about hypothetical – fantasy or if we are discussing real world application. Both have their place but it just gets pointless when the two are fused.

Art on canvas (paintings, photos, giclees, transfers) are hottest thing in the art world right now. Much of this popularity is because people like the “canvas” look. Z-gel on posters is also popular for the same reason. This thread was started because the glass was rejected and eventually the entire order. One realistic explanation could be that the customer just wanted the canvas look.

We don’t have to speculate about price because the customer in question said that it was too expensive.

My suggestion to the real world topic is that possibly the piece doesn’t need glass (canvases make up over ½ the art on my walls and not a single piece “needs” it). For certain the customer didn’t want glass. If the value was such that the piece did need glazing, perhaps glass isn’t the right choice anyway. This piece is still likely going to be framed without glass but the saddest fact of all is that YOU’RE not doing it.

Jim, I can’t tell if your questions are legit or just poking fun but I’ll pass on the bait. I will just suggest that if we compare the how many ever 1000% difference between regular glass and museum glass compared to the less significant difference between MG and its acrylic equivalent. That may help out with the internal debate of price vs. quality.

I was wondering if anybody would mention Mr Wynn. That piece might have benefited from a better framer huh?
 

Framer Dave

True Grumbler
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Posts
68
Sorry for the threadjack.

Framer Dave:manythanks. Just haven't gotten my mag yet, but will look for it.

O by the bye: why are you now a "grumbler in training?" What happened to your status on here, my man???


Somewhere in the transition to the new board FramerDave seems to have gotten lost. So now I'm the noob Framer Dave.

Back to the regularly scheduled thread...
 

preservator

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Mar 23, 2001
Posts
2,209
From
Wilmington, DE
A sheet of shatter-resistant glazing material could have gone a great way
to protect the Picasso painting that was recently damaged in Las Vegas.



Hugh
 

Jim Miller

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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Posts
19,082
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Suburban Central Ohio
What's wrong with this picture?

Often times in these discussions I have a hard time knowing if we are talking about hypothetical – fantasy or if we are discussing real world application. Both have their place but it just gets pointless when the two are fused.

Real or hypothetical? The prospect of owning a Picasso to be sold for $139 million may seem like fantasy to most of us, but the loss created by Steve Wynn's errant elbow is about as real as it gets. Another reality is that acrylic or laminated glass would have prevented serious damage to that very important work of art.

... Z-gel on posters is also popular for the same reason... One realistic explanation could be that the customer just wanted the canvas look...

Z-Gel coated canvas transfers, and a lot of original canvas paintings priced likewise, perhaps mass produced in Korean sweat shops, fall into the same category: decorative only, no long term value. That's a stark contrast to Wynn's Picasso, eh?

But regardless of value, most canvas artworks still go naked -- Wynn's Picasso and the $50 canvas transfer alike. And it will probably be a long time before artists, owners, and framers all agree that glazing them -- at least the valuable ones -- is good. The persistent myths are that glazing canvas paintings is bad in one way or another.

The surprise for a lot of knowledgeable artists, framers, and owners is that glazing a painting has no technical downside. Many still think glazing a painting is harmful, and it simply is not true. Whether the art is a painting on canvas or a cheap paper print, proper glazing provides the same benefits.

...Jim, I can’t tell if your questions are legit or just poking fun but I’ll pass on the bait...

The questions are absolutely legit, because framers need to understand the right answers.

The double standard about glazing is stunning. When we sell framing for a $50 poster, it almost always will include glazing. But when we sell framing for a $5,000 painting on canvas, probably not.

And yet, framers say it's hard to set themselves apart from the cheap competition, hard to increase revenue and profits. And they are concerned about helping customers prolong the life of their art through better framing. Really?

What's wrong with this picture?
 

Jay H

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
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Posts
9,908
From
KY
I think the benifits are well documented and not challenged very well.

Only reason I dare say anything is becuase we have to apply the science in a free market. Very few of us oversee art in a museum setting, are carving out a career as an authority on conservation, or have customers with unlimited framing budgets.

It is error to suggest are no "cons" at all. This thread started when one of our brethren lost a sale because of this very issue. The inferance here would suggest that lost sales (for whatever reason) are a totally seperate issue. Its not from my perspective.
 

tnframer408

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Posts
1,506
From
Knoxville TN
I'll repeat what I said a couple pages ago in this thread. The steak was sold, not the sizzle. Or, in more concrete terms, the advantages of glazing vs. non-glazing were not sold.

Now granted, the writer, like me, could have been unaware of all that has been uncovered in this thread plus the articles in PFM which I have yet to see.

that being the case, however, I don't see any harm whatsoever in (1) copying said articles (2) having said articles on hand and (3) prmoting the dickens out of museum or Optium glazing for canvas. It's then up to the customer to decide--spend the extra coupla hundred on glazing armed with the proper knowledge or continue to have the canvas done unframed??

I know I said this in another thread, but just got back from Santa Fe visitng my artist son. Amazing the truly high end galleries there, original oils/acrylics/etc. selling in the multi thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, and not one being glazed.

So decide for yourself. Me, I'll arm myself with the information and provide the glazing option here on out. Also as an extra benefit, kicks us up a notch from other places who re ignorant of this knowledge. (read BIG BOX)
 

BUDDY

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Charter Member
Joined
Sep 16, 1998
Posts
11,515
From
Mandeville,La. USA 130 Blue Heron Dr.
I really should stay out of this since I never framed any really valuable originals. But in reading all the replies I can't help but wonder if the Glazing is proper for the art handled by Hugh Phibbs and if there are methods and materials available to prevent the concerns of accidental glass breakage, but the average client isn't aware of it and we blindly agree to their fears with out explaining the error of their old wives tales just to insure the sale of a Frame job ; is there any wonder that the MYTH continues?
Worse how do we ever expect anyone to ever realize that we are not just blowing smoke but making a LEGITIMATE framing point if we can't even seperate the two concepts among ourselves? And as such we never educate the public about these misconceptions just so we can keep making our sales on lessor valued art?

Aren't we guaranteeing that future customers will always ask or demand that ALL canvases be framed without "THAT HARMFULL AND DANGERIOUS" Glazing, regaurdless of who teaches us better and countless times. It seems that makeing the sale has over taken educating the customer on what is best for their work and why. The choice ( as said in another thread) is and always will be their's but after our best information.
BUDDY
 

TessaE

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Posts
402
From
Asheville, NC
No. Why would you glaze a canvas painting?? Have I missed something new again and still doing things the dinosaur way?

It was new to me as well, untill the article brought up some good points.(The article in Octobers issue of PFM on glazing oil paintings)
 
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