FrameYourArt.com has a member chat room called "Le Forum." Concept is similar to this except the topics generally relate to dealings with FrameYourArt.com and general framing issues. Regardless, Le Forum is closed again...
Any of you out there belong to FrameYourArt.Com besides me. I think it is time we talk to each other. It appears FYA.COM Big Brother doesn't want us to communicate with each other.
I just received a notice they added an on- line framing service called "BigNose.com"
I am beginning to feel strung along on a wild ride to no where, with a company without a clue or business plan. Any one feel the same? Or am I a lone wolf howling into the wind?
Greg-I was a member of FYA and was put on an ad hoc committee (pretty benign) that discussed issues and problems. Mr Marco was upset that we existed and sent us some real tough e-mails. He offered to allow any of us to resign, and I did. I think I get in for all the right reasons and got out for all the right reasons. Please contact me directly for more info, since I doubt if anyone else is interested. My bottom line:Way too much hype, not near enough results. The expectations and results were both the same-virtual. For the record, we never had a single order
I am not a memeber but I do know that the Hitchhikers are presently trying to give PPFA some proof of their concerns.This information might be very interesting to them are any of you able to convey this information to them?Or better yet ,Framer can this file be transfered to them?Also they may have more to tell you that you aren't aware of.
[This message has been edited by BUDDY (edited October 10, 2000).]
Greg, Also an FYA member unhappy with the loss of the forum. Got an email from FYA saying they were going to a chat room format, but it sounds to me like more control. I complained to FYA about heir spin, and got more gobeldegook for an answer. Still feel like I'm being "pitched" every time I communicate with them.
Bob, I emailed you about your decision to leave a few weeks ago, and haven't heard back.
Thanks Framer.What i meant to ask for was permission to FWD information found here to another board. I didn't want to do so without asking your permission.It might be helpful for the two factions to hear from some disinterested third parties.
By disinterested I mean seperate from their debate ,which is is the PPFA /FYA alliance in the best interest of both sides and is there unseen things and motives.
Thanks again and I'll pass it along.
We too feel like FYA has sold us a bill of goods. One lie after another and their new alliance with ART.Com & BigNose.Com is about the end of the rope for us. FYA is driving business away with these programs. Why would anyone buy art on these two web sites -- with their framing prices-- and come to FrameYourArt.com for framing? Why are FYA dealers being asked to pay for leads from FYA's web site? Did the alliance signed by FYA with Art.Com/ PPFA/ and now BigNose.com violate the contracts signed? What can we do to stop this programs from taking our sales or do we have to take legal action to get out of this program?
[This message has been edited by Bill Ross (edited October 12, 2000).]
FYA has spent millions of dollars building your businesses. Why would you post
untruths? It makes no sense at all.
With the art.com, I cannot for the life of me understand why you wouldn't want a shot at
framing 65% of the business that art.com ships unframed - These customers are new to
you, Internet savvy, get introduced to the FYA site and are going to get them framed
somewhere. These customers are WALKING IN YOUR FRAME SHOP!!!!! TWICE!!! Once to
frame the art and a second time to pick up their over sized image...which I would hope
you could frame as well. YOU TELL ME....what is the value of a new customer walking
into your frame shop.
Bignose does not do framing. They are using the virtual framing cad system in their site
and using our dealer network for framing large format print sales, along with their channel partners.
PPFA provides us the means to bring education to the dealer network.
Why would you spread such falsehoods without knowing the facts?
FYA to whom is your post directed ? Is there someone in particular or is it just anyone who has an opinion?
Personally I am only gathering facts from all sources and trying to make the same available to every body I communicate with.I do this so whom ever can have as much information as they can the decisions are up to the individuals.I know I have never tried to sway anyones opinion .I think all who read either of these Two Forums are intelligent enough to know their own minds and what is in their interest if given all the information available.Therefore I certainly hope you didn't direct your comments at me.If you are maybe we should communicate privately .What did you say your email address is and to whom should i address it to?
[This message has been edited by BUDDY (edited October 12, 2000).]
It is interesting how a complaint about the Forum is turning into a debate between FYA members and FYA. The Forum is down, and we are not happy.I feel FYA was getting too much heat from members on their site, and shut it down. A form of censorship, in my opinion. Now they are going to a live chat. They did it once before and it didn't work. As far as their claim of spending "millions" of dollars in our behalf, this is how they figure it-10,000 coupons x the RETAIL price of the free posters = $3,000,000. They claim it is lost revenue. I would only consider it lost revenue if the individual who turns in the coupon was actually going to buy the poster. But then I'm not trying to convince anyone this promo is better than it really is. I did not sign up for the art.com promo. I am busy enough on my own, and I'll be darned if I am going to pay art.com a portion of my profits. I haven't heard about Bignose. What is that, and what is the deal there?
An e-mail address in the profile and a contact name at the end of the post would be great. There is nothing to indicate if the post is actually from an FYA representative, or just a person stirring the pot.
So Grumblers, this might not be FYA talking here, and just some yahoo.
Instead of addressing Bill's stuff here, (as much as his points, as well as Bob's and Pam's need to be looked at), I think you might do better to answer Greg's Le Forum question.
I would hope you just found out about The Grumble and that's why you answered Bill, as opposed to monitoring the thread the whole time, and just not feeling that Gregs questions / comments about when Le Forum merited response.
I don't think that is the only way they do the math is coupons. The ad glossies in our trades, and consumer mags do cost a mint. Also, every trade show booth is a huge chunk of change. They don't get stand around in convention centers for free.
Could you clarify something? As an FYA member you are not an auto-refer from Art Dot Com? You must "opt in", and pay in for this added alliance of the parent company?
Marc-I'm pretty sure this post from FYA is legit and I'll bet it's from very,very high up the ladder. But I agree with you whole heartedly in a completed profile. But, I'll bet the farm (or at least a fresh box of Krispy Kremes) this is the real deal.The style is unmistakable. But I will tell you that knowing Pam as I do (from FYA) she speaks of what she knows. Listen to her position carefully, she's not alone, not even close. But this thing is getting a little Nixonian, and that bothers me.
I sent a message to the registration email address which was at frameyourart.com, I have not received a reply but it did not come back either. I would say the message was from them unless they reply otherwise.
I got an e-mail directly from FYA, same wording as posted message, but it wasn't from Pam (Bob), it was higher up the pecking order near the top (but not the top).
1)"spent millions building business"---FYA and its other web site business.
2)FYA Dealers signed on to work with "FrameYourArt.Com Inc." as a internet portal, not any other dot Com.
3) The question is not the value of Art.Com business---the question is that the contracts stated there were no other alliances with FYA.com. Not even other dot com's in the FYA family of web portals.
4)Art.com sells framing at a discount. Why would anyone buy from us a full retail? You will have to sell at full retail to pay finders fee to FYA. Yes! the check would go to FYA for them to handle with ART.Com.
5) Question-- Customer buys a poster on ART.Com and is given a coupon for a $300 print to be supplied by the FYA dealer. Frame it with us. Maybe if the price is low enough, but more likely they will just take the poster and walk. "In your frame shop twice", yes. Value of new customer?
6)The most important point listed in FYA's posting---- Why would we spread falsehoods without knowing the facts? First-- FYA didn't give us the facts, without controlling the press. Why would FYA use this forum to reply when they have the "le Forum"? Could it be they closed the "le Forum" and they want to get their message out to the members and other gallery owners? Why didn't FYA's posting allow e-mail reply's to be sent directly to the sender?
I apologias for using these forum to express my views about the problems with FYA, but its the best forum to reach other FYA dealers and potential FYA converts.
[This message has been edited by Bill Ross (edited October 13, 2000).]
Since FYA.com is not available to Canadian retailers (thank god!!) I sit back and look at all the advertising by FYA and the responses of unsatisfied vendors and say "Only In America". Everyone is looking for a get rich quick scenario, although I'm the first to admit I can (and have) fallen victim to many overzealous marketing campaigns in the past. There are very little internet success stories. Do you really think that art.com, who in my opinion peddles lower end framed art to cost conscious industries (ie: hospitality ect.) will let profits slip into the hands of us little framers? Do you think that the people who patronize art.com will take their framing to anywhere but a discount shop?
I personally do not want an art.com customer.
I would prefer to spend my marketing dollars on proven avenues, not an unproven FYA arrangement.
I get the same feeling about this issue as I do when someone approaches me about multi-level marketing. An example is Amway who is now cloaking themselves under the guise of Quixstar (which is really Amway gone high tech).
Lisa Kozokowsky C.G.A.H.
Marc, I spoke with FYA about the $3,000,000 expenditure, and yes, the coupons are how they are figuring the dollars spent, just as I stated in my post. Fya members had to sign a contract to be in order to be included in the art.com promo. I opted not to be included out of principle.
OK, so it it wonky number crunching, but what I also mean is that your membership dues that you spend (hard dollars, not soft dollars) are paying for the slicks, and the show presence. Either way it's it's just a lot of money.
On a different note, . . .who's seen the stuff about Framer Select, and has anybody, aside from me, contacted them(Bob?). A different concept from them.
Marc-You are absolutely right on the dollars we spent being used for the promotional items listed. Most complaints were that the majority of dollars were spent on member recruiting, not client recruiting. I heard that often. Regardless, I did admire Al and his idea; it just didn't work out for us. The reasons are coming out repeatedly and they stand on their on merit. I do think that it's becoming a public relations nightmare, and that's not very becoming.If I were interested in another referral system, knowing Jay Goltz's reputation as a solid businessman,I would give it some real serious consideration. But for now, I'm going to sit back and watch the dust settle. Hang on, it's going to be a bumpy ride
Bob is right on a number of accounts. It has been a PR nightmare for them and for the dealers. We really don't like being the last to know about a "new" association and have to extrapolate how it will impact us. I am really tired of all the "new, newer, newest" associations being formed without ANY information coming to us (dealers) from FYA.com other than a non-descript thread about how unfair "we" are. FYA.Com, give us a break and stop pandering, we are established business owners involved everyday with customer service issues, now start exhibiting some proactive customer service.
My apologies to all the Grumble members who have had to endure this thread. I really didn't realize the depth and breadth of this problem and was just looking for someone with a similar story before approaching FYA.Com with my concerns. Y'all have validated my concerns, thanks.
Greg, I agree with Bob on many of his points, also. I don't feel there is a need to apologize for these posts, however. Just think, if FYA had kept their Forum open, this discussion on the Grumble might never have taken place. Now, non-members have some insight as to what has been going on. I think this thread will cost FYA membership.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marc Lzier: OK, so it it wonky number crunching, but what I also mean is that your membership dues that you spend (hard dollars, not soft dollars) are paying for the slicks, and the show presence. Either way it's it's just a lot of money.
On a different note, . . .who's seen the stuff about Framer Select, and has anybody, aside from me, contacted them(Bob?). A different concept from them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I attended a presentation in Minneapolis regarding Framer Select. It doesn,t have its act together yet. On his web site it says to fill in a zipcode and click the find? button, but there isn,t any. I tried to e mail them twice, with NO response.
ON a similar note however , we have formed a group of framers in our area and have had sucess with common advertising and monthly meetings to share information. There are seven stores involved and we do a lot of the things that Jay Goltz talks about. I think that these types of alliances are better met on a local level than getting lost in a nationwide scheme. If there are any questions please email or ask on this forum.
Regarding Framer Select -- we spent a fair amount of time with Jay in Atlanta, and the programs sounds excellent. For those of you who are wondering, Framer Select is primarily a way of advertising in a national forum without breaking the bank. For a yearly fee (payable monthly, if you wish) your business will be added to the search engine currently being built. The fees are pooled to purchase large ads in major magazines. National ad slicks provide a telephone # and the website address to allow consumers to search for FS framers in their area. Criteria for being accepted to FS include years in business, turnaround time, sample selection, and a few others (I don't have the packet in front of me right now.)
As for the website, both it and the ad campaign will begin in March 2001. Jay and staff are currently in the process of seeking out qualified members so that you don't pull up the website and find only one framer in the whole country. This was planned from the start, and they've always been up front about it. I also know that they're pretty busy with a redesign of the website, adding a mapping function, so e-mails may not be answered right away. There should be a phone number as well, and either Felice or Mark will get back to you.
Benefits -- in-store advertising and promotional materials and signage, but primarily the search service. The ad campaign is extensive, with repeated ads in many national mags. Good ones, too -- I just spoke to Mark on Friday and he told me about the contracts they've signed thus far. There are also plans to create a sort of buying group, with scaled discounts available to members. No details of this had been finalized when I last spoke with Jay, but I'll check and see what's up. I've contacted FS for more detailed info, which I will post to the Grumble when I get it. To view the website (members, not consumers) try www.FramerSelectMember.com.
Derek Vandeberg CPF
Frame of Reference, Bigfork, Montana
Just a note about FramerSelect: We met Jay last summer (before he began FS). He provided us with some strategies and information that have proved to be absolutely the best business info we have ever used. We joined FS innediately upon hearing about it. The advertising and other stuff that Derek mentioned in his post, will of course be beneficial to us and any other framers that meet the criteria and become members; but, what I think will be the best part of the association, will be the info that Jay will pass along to members. I am really looking forward to the beginning of FS and am even heading out to Las Vegas for the classes that Jay (and others) will be teaching out there! Big step for an east coast girl! Anyway, I would highly recommend joining FS to any frame shop/gallery that wants to do more business, be more professional and make a higher profit from this business that we all love!!
I think there should be some distinction made between FramerSelect and FYA.
To be blunt,let's keep Framer Select out of this thread. I think we can have allot of positive and new discussion on FramerSelect.
Use the thread I opened instead for Framer Select musings.
AS for FYA: On a lark I entered my ZIP to see (A)if it was still available, and (B) to see who the closest FYA dealers were.
I got 5 hits. First on the list was a shop in Beverly Hills. A far distance.
Second was a shop just down the street. Third was near Pasadena.
Fourth listed the second shop again, and fifth was in Hollywood (still closer than number one).
I called #1: Busy with a customer, call back later.
I called # 2 (I know the shop), said who I was and asked how they liked the program. Only one actual internet art sale has made it to the door. But they have framed a fair share of the free posters. I menitoned the Beverly Hills shop got priority over hers for a customer zip querrie, and she wonderd about that. I also asked why she got listed twice. They have 2 locations, and the other address was supposed to be the other location in Glendale, they gave the correct info to FYA.
Call back #1: On long distance call, call back later.
Called # 3. I said who I was and asked how they liked the program. No net sales. Few free poster claims. Heavy promotion on the part of the sotre. Not happy campers.
Called back # 1: Out to lunch.
(four was the same people as one, remember?)
Called # 5: New to program, but was intersted to hear what 2 and 3 had to say.
Called back #1: gone home.
On another note,
Curly: I always knew you were the smartest stooge, no matter what anybody says.
I got some notes from FYA directly to clarify the whole Zip code schmeggy. I have been a busy, so late as it is:
To quote FYA, " 1. There are two FYA Dealer Locators on the site.
a. The Art.com Promotion Dealer Locator is on the FYA Home Page.
Only dealers who chose to participate in this particular promotion can be found in this locator.
b. The master FYA Dealer Locator can be found in the "Art & Framing" page, accessible from the FYA Home Page.
The Locators are programmed to run according to geographic location, not priority. When a customer enters their zip code the nearest five FYA Dealers will come up. If there are only four dealers in a given area, the program will randomly pull a shop in that area which accounts for the one shop repeating from time to time. There is no set priority level if the zip code is NOT a purchased zip code.
If the zip code entered by a customer is owned (purchased) by an FYA Dealer, then only/her shop will appear."
The letter went of to say:
"2. In January, FYA Dealers will be given a fully enabled e-commerce website that will have all of the functions of the FrameYourArt.com site, plus some extras. FYA is handing over a million dollars worth of
software to every FYA Dealer. These Web sites will have the personal domain name of each gallery. The average cost to host a site of this size, equipped with a shopping cart and gateway merchant account is well over $99.00 per month - not to mention the actual cost of developing a site. This will be available at no additional charge for our dealers -
it is one of the many many benefits of an authorized dealer.
3.This weeks (of a few weeks ago) electronic magazine features an FYA dealer who has really taken the tools we have provided and increased his bottom line significantly. He is quoted that if he continues his sales trend through the year, just by using our free art tool, he will add $18,000 to $24,000 in sales. To date, he has over $6000 in FYA related framing sales.
4. FYA is serious about taking its members to the 21st Century with not only print-on-demand technologies, but access to an exclusive image bank whereby they will have beautiful images to sell - not only at no cost, but available through a digital file which can be sent electronically and printed "in house". No more dead inventory, no more shipping, no more dollars tied up.
5. Our Educational Seminars, the Buyer's Club, Artlister (secondary market art listing service) are all free to our dealer's. Artlister.com alone is a service that can save a dealer thousands of dollars in
marketing, gross profit margins and cash flow, not to mention a new found customer base.
For an over view of our services, that reach far beyond the zip code territories, please go to http://www.fyadealer.com/e_zine/index.html for our archived electronic magazines. These are mailed to our dealers on a bi-weekly basis.
We at FYA will continue to put value into the hands of our dealers, they are very important to us. "
All that being said (if you even bothered reading that far, and if you haven't ripped the computer monitor off the desk yet), I seriously think anyone interested in the FYA goings on should visit http://www.allartportal.com/ezine/press.html I would post the contents of the press release, but it is copyrighted.
I wait to see what Grumblers think of the FYA company response, and of the latest doings of FYA. I've got some opins of my own, but I'll hold those back for now.
The FYA news is wonderful, but may I ask two questions of the grumble family.
#1 Why is the dealer locator for the paying members of FYA on page two instead of on the home page under the map?
#2 All these glowing reports about framing sales from the free posters, but how many dealers have gotten new sales from the FYA web site? (There are over 500 dealers in the network.) Based on the six dealers near me, all of us still have clean door mats --- none have received their first new customer from the FYA web site.
Please post your glowing reports, so we who don't have any can feel there is a light at the end of the sales tube and we might get some return on our investments.
PhotoLoft, Inc has just acquired Extreme Velocity Group (FrameYourArt.COM) and it has a new name ----"Brightcube,Inc"---read the full story on www.allartportal.com/ezine/press
Marc, Thanks for taking the time to research this issue and bringing to the forefront what FYA.Com has neglected to do. But as far as I am concerned what I read is ...Blah...Blah...Blah...just a different day.
Every month I see the "membership dues" being drawn on my credit card I remember the HARD lesson learned and vow never to repeat the same mistake twice.
Thanks for keeping this thread alive, who knows it may actually help someone.
I keep getting emails from unhappy FYA members and continue to negative reports here, and I'm just wondering if there is anyone that is happy with FYA? More importantly, has anybody gotten their dues worth and thirdly, how many will renew. My take from the comments is that the answer will probably be no, no and no. But I'd love to hear the other side, but only if it's from a real member and not some over-hyped staffer
Not necessarily unhappy. Disappointed perhaps, and at times disenfranchised. The original concept hasn't really worked for me, and I'm not so sure the evolutions have done much to improve the situation. Am interested in seeing what the offer from FYA is when it comes time to re-up. Still think people are much more comfortable framing in the flesh.
Where are all the FYA dealers? Are you happy with the program? Being there is no other forum to express our ideas, why don't you tell us about your successes here. I know I'm not the only one who is paying each month and getting no return. I know I'm not the only person asking questions about where the money is going. Step up to the plate (computer keyboard) and tell your story.