Frustrated with Customers this year

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studio 3

studio 3

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
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Jan 16, 2008
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Ok so I'm not usually one to complain - but I'm just needing an outlet to vent! And what better place than the Grumble.

I feel like holiday shoppers (or maybe just my holiday shoppers) are out to get me this year. I had someone call in that claimed they got a quote on a very nice frame from us for some oil paintings a few days ago- but they had since been to BIG BOX and gotten a quote for 50% off. Would I match that?

I explained nicely that sometimes the BB raises prices in order to then discount. And if we were to discount 50% on our already low prices then we would infact be losing money and end up out of business. I offered our holiday special (that just went out to our e-mail list) of 10% off.

Customer claims - well the BB quoted me with the same exact frame at 1/2 your price. I mentioned that sometimes frame quality can determine price and although they might look the same sometimes the wood and craftsmanship is different....again I'd be happy to offer the 10% discount.

Of course the customer just hangs up. This just got under my skin because I know the frame they chose and its an intricate carved wood - and I doubt BB has anything like it....its not your simple black!

I'm trying to be positive but after losing a couple sales this week to people who think the price is too high but don't want to substitute their frame choice for a lower costing one I'm starting to lose my patience. If they want the best its not going to be cheap - why doesn't anyone understand that with framing?- yet shelling out big bucks for a gucci handbag is worth it. aargh!

..ok done with my rant. Feels a little better just to let it out.
 
ive had people try to scam me before as well. they are trying to get a price out of you so they can tell them and get a better deal.

funny thing is they may not be happy with the price from wherever they are and are looking for something better.

they wont' win, and no one will get the sale is my guess.
 
I just drove by one of the M series BB's and they've got a 60% OFF FRAMING banner about 8 feet high over their front window. Can hardly wait to see what HL across the street is going to do. I should be in the Big Banner Business.

Maybe quality no longer matters, when you get a "discount" however contrived. Are people really that naive? Guess so. What did Barnum say?
 
What Paul N said.

My peeve is with the customers that can't pick up their artwork in an appropriate vehicle. In this case, they deputized a friend to come pick up their canvases, some of which are 38x38, and some of which are 38x48. So the friend shows up in a normal, 4-door sedan, with the intent that these unframed canvases will just lean up against the back seat. I explained why that didn't sound like a great idea to me, and since she's not the owner of the art, she's just picking it up for the owners as a favor, she agreed.

And naturally, all this happens on a day when my computer's hard drive has died an inglorious death, so that I have to set up a new computer and re-install my POS on it. Blech.
 
most people are very blind and really don't care about quality. there are those that figure it out, and they come to me, and those that just never bother to.

it feels good to get 60% off of anything. wouldn't you agree? esp if you have no idea how much something really cost to start with. so yeah. those BB stores can be good for us, and be id say really bad for us because most people don't get a lot of things framed, so it don't matter where they go because they have no otehr ideas of what is out there.
 
I had one who sent a friend ina pickup truck to get her oversize art...thye truck was full of greasy tools helter skelter in the box just rolling around and , you guessed it, the friend wanted to just toss the picture on top of all that in the pickup box and take off down the highway.
 
studio 3 said:
Customer claims - well the BB quoted me with the same exact frame at 1/2 your price.
Click to expand...

Ooooooh...I doubt it.

But I'd tell them to bring in the quote so I could have a look at it.

Honestly, they're lying. I'd just like to be able to prove it.

BB's being half of standard prices??? It never happens.
 
I had a guy in today wanting to buy moulding to make his own frames. The next thing out of his mouth was that the frames at places like Walmart want an arm & a leg for their frames. This left me speechless. This guy wants to buy real moulding not sawdust & glue and save money as well.
 
janetj1968 said:
Ooooooh...I doubt it.

But I'd tell them to bring in the quote so I could have a look at it.

Honestly, they're lying. I'd just like to be able to prove it.

BB's being half of standard prices??? It never happens.
Click to expand...

Either lying, misled or fishing for a better price. Everyone is trying to stretch their XMas dollar and I have already had my "ooh, that much.... can you do better" wink, wink, nudge nudge customers already.

Tell them to bring in the quote and you'll try to do what you can to match, beat or explain the difference in price. If they didn't actually get a quote they may have driven past, saw the bigas "50% off frame" banner and probably thought the discount went to the whole job and not just the frame.

And I have had people come in with a quote from someone else for the exact same frame I quoted them, only my gold frame was their black wood. Exact same almost different frames :)
 
I don't know which is worse...

Being frustrated with customers or frustrated without customers.

:icon11:
 
Matching price in a apples to apples comparison is one thing, but you can not entertain the idea of matching discounts. If they are serious have them bring in a quote listing the materials used and sizes and you can probably blow a BB price out of the water.
 
Dave said:
I don't know which is worse...

Being frustrated with customers or frustrated without customers.

:icon11:
Click to expand...

Dave, I'm with you...


I've had quite a few customers lately who have come in to get something framed, find out the price, and suddenly hedge. When I explain that we could change a frame, narrow mat widths, or change glass, they say strange things, like "Well, if I can't get what I wanted, I'm not going to frame it at all." HUH? :shrug:
The needleworkers are my favorites though... they come in and pick out a design. Then, give them price - they almost always look stunned and then say "oh, well, that's a lot for something I stitched for fun, I'll just put it in the drawer with all the others I never bothered to frame..." I really do try to stop them from leaving, but they are impossible! The thing is, I know a lot of them, and they spend oodles of money on the canvas/cloth, threads, and patterns to stitch the pieces, so it's not a lack of money - just a lack of the framing's perceived utility!
 
Pangolin said:
Dave, I'm with you...


I've had quite a few customers lately who have come in to get something framed, find out the price, and suddenly hedge. When I explain that we could change a frame, narrow mat widths, or change glass, they say strange things, like "Well, if I can't get what I wanted, I'm not going to frame it at all." HUH? :shrug:
The needleworkers are my favorites though... they come in and pick out a design. Then, give them price - they almost always look stunned and then say "oh, well, that's a lot for something I stitched for fun, I'll just put it in the drawer with all the others I never bothered to frame..." I really do try to stop them from leaving, but they are impossible! The thing is, I know a lot of them, and they spend oodles of money on the canvas/cloth, threads, and patterns to stitch the pieces, so it's not a lack of money - just a lack of the framing's perceived utility!
Click to expand...

yeah. people seem to want what they want, and its a new era of if i can't afford what i want i am not going to get it, as opposed to just buying everything and not thinking about it.

i had a lady come in and saw a frame she liked. very nice. then said the price was to much, so i showed her one that was the same shape, and less because teh other had a much nicer finish on it. needless to say she got mad cause they were the same shape but not the same price so she left never to be seen again... its a new world.
 
evartpat said:
Lately for me its been..."Can I have the artists...teacher's...military...senior...just-because-I-am-breathing discount?"...:mad:
Click to expand...

That's when you do you car salesman routine and say " Let me go ask the manager" and leave for 5 minutes, grab a coffee, dounut come back and say sure............
 
Customers...you have to love them!

Someone once told me that it's not about customer satisfaction, it's about customer service.

If we tried to keep our customers satisfied, we would all go out of business real fast as they want the best for the least.

I find that sometimes I have to let a customer go and try the cheaper product but I always try and let them know they will be missed. Most come back.
 
FrameMakers said:
I had a guy in today wanting to buy moulding to make his own frames. The next thing out of his mouth was that the frames at places like Walmart want an arm & a leg for their frames. This left me speechless. This guy wants to buy real moulding not sawdust & glue and save money as well.
Click to expand...

I swear I had the same guy today as well!!!

And....he wanted catalogs, names and phone numbers of my suppliers to buy from them directly......LOL!!!
 
Paul, you should have given him a brochure to WCAF.
 
This is my first day of extended hours for the holidays. I sold a $20 photo frame this morning, and nobody has darkened my door since then.
 
At my store, we have been slow all week. Then in about a ten minute period, five customers come in all wanting to place orders. But of course the first customer is the one who has a few pieces and can't make up her mind about any of them, so for the most part the others just have to wait. Right after the fifth person walked in the owner dropped by. So while I am still helping the first person, he takes care of the others. This could either make the store look good (for being busy) or me look bad (for taking so long with a customer who isn't even placing all of the orders).

I was sure he was going to think it was great how busy we were until he saw how little money we made for the week. Then I was concerned he would want to know why we seemed so busy if there wasn't that much money coming in. Fortunately, we have had a decent number of orders (just mostly paid with deposits) and he never did ask. I really like my boss, but getting asked about a lack of customers and sales isn't fun, especially when I have limited control over them. Fun times.
 
FrameMakers said:
I had a guy in today wanting to buy moulding to make his own frames. The next thing out of his mouth was that the frames at places like Walmart want an arm & a leg for their frames. This left me speechless. This guy wants to buy real moulding not sawdust & glue and save money as well.
Click to expand...

I had a similar experience today, Dave. A new customer came in, took one look at our price chart for the poster special (on the wall) and exclaimed, "You beat Michael's by a mile!" He bought one of our custom made ready mades and was astonshed when he asked, "And what do I owe you for the hangers and wire and all that stuff.? When I said, "That's included in the price of the frame" his jaw dropped, he took a handful of my brochures, shook my hand, and was on his way.

So the BB does not always win with false advertising. BTW, his sister used to work at one and he told me horror stories. Lost art, miscuts, poor handling, mat send back from corporate with the wrong measurements, etc. I won't name which one.
 
The saddest part of the whole BB thing is that customers don't even KNOW their artwork may have been damaged, that the frame they ordered is simulated snotwood, that their mats have 1/4" overcuts and so on. It all looks good to them and they saved 60%... says so right there on the banner. It is soooo discouraging.
 
A few years back I had a visit from a buyer from a national TV programme, wanting a dead basic photo frame made, about 30 off in which they put a phot for the losing contestant as a memento.

It was really basic and I quoted from memory about 6 quid each, he said he had previously got them for about 2.50 and I said I couldn't even buy in the materials for that.

I asked him why he wasn't just getting them at the same place as previously.

" Oh they have closed down"

What a surprise!!!!!!

As for collecting in inappropriate vehicles, I had a guy who collected a picture about the size of my desk and asked if it would fit in his car outside. When I looked it was a Smart car, Google it if you haven't seen one.

The car is about as big as a crushed normal car. You actually steer it from the back window. I didn't say anythting I think my look said it all.

He went home and got his "other car"
 
Petengeth said:
As for collecting in inappropriate vehicles, I had a guy who collected a picture about the size of my desk and asked if it would fit in his car outside. When I looked it was a Smart car, Google it if you haven't seen one.

The car is about as big as a crushed normal car. You actually steer it from the back window. I didn't say anythting I think my look said it all.

He went home and got his "other car"
Click to expand...

:D Great description of that Smart Car........................:D
 
EllenAtHowards said:
The saddest part of the whole BB thing is that customers don't even KNOW that the frame they ordered is simulated snotwood, that their mats have 1/4" overcuts and so on. It all looks good to them and they saved 60%... says so right there on the banner.
Click to expand...

Seems to be a good-sized demographic with much buying power, BTW.
 
These people are coming out of the woodwork this year.

When someone tells me they can get it that much cheaper somewhere else, I will tell them that they need to go back and get that price because there is no way that I can beat that price. If I have their attention, I will also throw out a quick description about quality.

On more than one occasion I have had the opportunity to look at a hand written quote that came in way low. The measurements were wrong. It had a 2" mat border, the rest was broken down to glass, "backer", wire, etc. I was quoting a 3" border with correct measurements. I think it was the same metal frame. I suggested that if they could get it for that price, I couldn't even come close because of incorrect numbers.

Also, I find that people who are so worried about pricing are the more difficult ones to deal with, especially the low end stitchery customers. I lost a sale on a stichery that was a scrap 8x10 frame, precut single mat, scrap acrylic, with a stretch and fit. I offered to do the entire piece for $25 thinking I was being extremely generous. It was still too costly. Who knew?

I was once told by someone that if you are able to sell to every customer who walks through your door, your prices are too low. About 10% will not purchase. I don't think that is worded right, but the idea is how I remember it. I will stick my neck out here, I think that might have come from Jay Goltz. Just put this customer in that 10% catagory.
 
Candy--

You can NOT win them all, nor should you! Jay Goltz is quite right about his quote.

Do you want to be Walmart or Nordstrom?

Nordstrom is doing quite well in my area even with this reccession.

Wendy
The Art Corner
Salrm, MA
 
Puppiesonacid said:
yeah. people seem to want what they want, and its a new era of if i can't afford what i want i am not going to get it, as opposed to just buying everything and not thinking about it.

i had a lady come in and saw a frame she liked. very nice. then said the price was to much, so i showed her one that was the same shape, and less because teh other had a much nicer finish on it. needless to say she got mad cause they were the same shape but not the same price so she left never to be seen again... its a new world.
Click to expand...

ugh. so sick of these people too! No matter what "cost cutting" options I offer them after their first design choice I can't seem to keep them in the store. I'm hoping the ones who leave for BB come crawling back to me after Christmas after they got such a crappy frame job.

I'm having trouble keeping my "holiday cheer smile" on my face! Wouldn't be so bad...but half the ones that leave berate me before they walk out. "I can't believe you get away with charging people this" "I didn't pay that much for the art - there is no way I'd spend that on framing" "You must be making a fortune on every one you sell"! At least have the decency to bow out nicely - is it really necessary to be rude?

...but just have to keep smiling. "sorry I can't help you".
 
I can't believe that it's a Saturday, 2 1/2 weeks until Christmas, and I've done only $25 in sales today. And that's from a woman who lives 400 miles away, so little chance of any repeat business. And she's the only person to come in all day.
 
wendy lang said:
Candy--

You can NOT win them all, nor should you! Jay Goltz is quite right about his quote.

Do you want to be Walmart or Nordstrom?

Nordstrom is doing quite well in my area even with this reccession.

Wendy
The Art Corner
Salrm, MA
Click to expand...

You might want to look at this before you choose to be Nordstrom.
http://money.aol.com/investing/big-retailers-which-may-close-or-downsize

Wal-Mart is the big winner. Have you noticed that the high end moulding manufacturers and distributors have been dropping like flies. I think you will be surprised when you see the ones that close up in the coming year. Very surprised.
 
One thing I appreciate about the Grumble is the
perspective it gives me. Near as I can tell, last
year and this year are the slowest Christmases
we've ever had. This year is slower than last, although
our November was okay. I can't believe it's just before
Christmas, either. But I was able to tell the lady I work
for that it's so much worse in other places, we can
be thankful for as much business as we have. It sure
would be nice if things would turn around for all of us
soon.

As per the topic of this thread, I had a lady come in
today with two M's readymades in a sack. She had
two little old prints she wanted to mat to fit the frames.
I decided that I'd think of it as the beginning of a relationship,
rather than just this one dinky job.

I made sure to let her know about the different levels
of matboard quality, and she chose conservation mats.
I told her about glass types, and showed her everything,
including Museum ('For if you ever have a family heirloom
to frame'. I know that's not the only time, but it puts people
at ease to say it that way.) It was amusing that we
were choosing this mat for her little readymades, as she
talked about her house in Sun Valley (posh resort area)
and that her husband is the CFO of a local bank. But
that's probably how they acquired so much is by being
frugal in other ways.

After we chose her single mat, she said she had
one more thing to design. It was three little Rie Munoz
cards that we will mat and put in one frame. After what
she paid for her M's frames, I'm sure the $177.00 plus
tax was a shock, but she took it in stride. 'It'll be my
Christmas gift to myself.'

The way I look at it. Maybe it wasn't a big job, but
if I wind up being her long time, trusted framer,
this will have been the first step. What I love is that,
in this town, it's still possible to make those relationships.
 
Hey Studio 3, why are people so rude where you are? I have had my shop for 27 years now and while I may have lost a person or two over the years (the ones who slink timidly out the door to "go home and think about where they want to hang these" or "ask my husband" whatever) but never once in 27 years has a single soul berated me for my prices. Sheesh - what is this world coming to?
 
Some frame shops are enjoying their best month of the year, as usual. Such good fortune may be due to their brilliant marketing, or maybe some other reason. Good for them.

But most frame shops are probably not enjoying what used to be their usual holiday sales boost. Generally, consumer buying habits have evolved away from custom framing as a purchase for the holidays. They're more interested in gee-whiz electronics and online buying. Any small independent retailer ought to know all about that by now.

Whatever is going on in a frame shop these days, those who are prepared to make the most of their markets and deal with their sales performance -- or lack of it -- probably deserve congratulations and respect for their ability to remain profitable in The New Market.

On the other hand, those who are surprised or unprepared to deal with slower holiday sales probably deserve sympathy for being out of touch, and encouragement to get more involved with what is going on.
 
Framar said:
Hey Studio 3, why are people so rude where you are? I have had my shop for 27 years now and while I may have lost a person or two over the years (the ones who slink timidly out the door to "go home and think about where they want to hang these" or "ask my husband" whatever) but never once in 27 years has a single soul berated me for my prices. Sheesh - what is this world coming to?
Click to expand...

I have no idea why suddenly people feel the need to make me feel horrible for what I am charging. Within the past few weeks I'm seeing more and more of it. I don't understand it because in NO way and I holding a gun to these people's heads and saying "pay this price right now". Maybe they think if they make me feel bad about it I'll be like ok "I'll take 50% off".

It was never like this before...usually people let out an "oh, I didn't think it would be that much, I'll have to go home and think about it".

I dunno - can't explain it myself - I just have to keep trying to shrug it off.
 
studio 3 said:
Maybe they think if they make me feel bad about it I'll be like ok "I'll take 50% off".

It was never like this before...usually people let out an "oh, I didn't think it would be that much, I'll have to go home and think about it".

I dunno - can't explain it myself - I just have to keep trying to shrug it off.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, guilt is a tactic in some people's negotiating handbag. I don't see a huge issue in making them be a little accountable for being so rude. It's custom work and it is not from China. Restate that for what it is, your prices are fair. If they don't feel that it's fair, it's their responsibility to find an alternative or go without. No games, just direct and honest.

Although I haven't been able to yet incorporate it into customer- interactions, the line, "are you trying to make me feel guilty?" (from a tape series) is one that I often think about. Just being aware that someone is trying to shame you puts you in a better position.


I hope you get some nicer customers! :thumbsup:
 
more_so said:
Maybe quality no longer matters, when you get a "discount" however contrived.
Click to expand...

Sometimes I think this is true with more and more people these days.

Last week we had a woman bring in a frame she had purchased elsewhere and wanted matting and glass put in it. When we went to paper the back, it had a cardboard lined back (back of the frame) which was peeling up a little. Peeking under the cardboard we found that the frame was hollow. There was a note on it that said to drive nails only in the designated area.

Even though we told the woman of our findings, she couldnt care less. The front looked nice and she was very happy.

Hate to say it, but it's the Walmart mentality. Cheaper is better to many people, and we're just not going to talk them out of it.
 
studio 3 said:
I'm having trouble keeping my "holiday cheer smile" on my face! Wouldn't be so bad...but half the ones that leave berate me before they walk out. "I can't believe you get away with charging people this" "I didn't pay that much for the art - there is no way I'd spend that on framing" "You must be making a fortune on every one you sell"! At least have the decency to bow out nicely - is it really necessary to be rude?
Click to expand...

Sorry you're having a bad time right now. Maybe you could incorporate this into your explanation to them.

"My prices are based on what my suppliers charge me. The big box companies buy in large quantites and often from foreign discount suppliers which enables them to offer lower pricing but usually lesser quality."
 
Beveled said:
"My prices are based on what my suppliers charge me. The big box companies buy in large quantites and often from foreign discount suppliers which enables them to offer lower pricing but usually lesser quality."
Click to expand...

That's a dangerous game to play. Much of the so called higher quality materials of which you speak come from the same factories, run on the same machines, and using the same material compositions. Only difference is that regional vendors add another layer of profits being consumed along the way. Most BB's are using the same mat boards, same glass, same backing materials and the same frame materials. The only difference in many cases is the number printed on the label. If the materials are the same and it is not a safety issue (we don't build automobiles and rarely frame Rembrandt's) then all you are doing is saying they can sell the same thing for less because they buy better.

I honestly believe that the survival of the independent frame shop requires the ability to compete. Independants must be able to offer an array of value priced items and not just 8 or 10. There are mountains of mouldings out there that can be purchased under $1 and can be purchased in small quantities. Pick out 40 and buy 4 sticks of each and now you can compete with anybody. That's a $1600 investment in your business that will save you most of those sales. Buy a box of generic clear glass and offer traditional paper mat when appropriate and now you are back in business.

Conservation has been overdone to the death of 3/4 of this industry. A poster is a poster. A decorator print is a decorator print. A print from a digital photograph is under a dollar. All of those that claim everything must be conservation rarely drive a Mercedes but the car you drive conserves lives. You may drive a Chevy and it carries the most valuable item you have and that is your family. Then you tell the customer that the photo they printed at Costco for $1 must be framed in the Rolls Royce of framing materials to "Protect it from a Horrible Fate Worse Than Death".

I am truly sorry for the reduction of business that framers are experiencing but once framers accept that the housing boom is over forever there are decisions to be made. One must adapt or close up shop. It is better to do it as a decision than to have everything vanish. A good value line will bring customers through the door. Customers have a lot of things to be framed now that they are forced to stay in their homes for 5 to 10 years before they can afford to sell. They want to decorate and framers need to feel priveledged that customers have passed through the front door in the first place. The Guru of raising prices may have been right about it during the house flipping boom but he is flat out wrong to continue in this economy.
 
My non customer of the season came in with the entire family. Because there was the annual Parade of Lights I stayed open late and offered free hot drinks. Ok so there are the 5 of them sucking down seconds on the Hot Cider and the husband mentions to his wife she could bring in some paintings they have to frame. In a very nasty undertone she looks right at me and says this place is expensive. Not much Christmas spirit on her part but I did my best to tell her for framing it depends on the frame you pick and I would love to see what she has. NO WAY! but she was able to refill her cup and grab a couple more candy canes on the way out the door.
 
Holy moly, Rhonda - with a woman like that I do believe you are far better off without having her as your customer. Sheesh.

They were obviously just out and about getting a free meal, up and down the street. Must cost a lot to feed that many rugrats. You were lucky to be their dessert stop. LOL.
 
I wonder if too many of you are playing this one exactly how the BB's have planned it.

If so, it's time to introduce some new tactics!

O.K., here's my idea:

Give them a wriiten quote, make sure that it says that the price includes the frame, mounts, glass, fitting, hangers, labour, etc., and that there is nothing extra to pay for any hidden items. Then tell them to go and see if the BB's can beat your quote.

Be sure to tell them that in spite of their advertising, you don't believe that they will be able to beat your price for doing the whole job if they are offering exactly like for like. You know your price is a good one!

Also if they are going to offer something cheaper, then if they get a written quote, stating what is being offered and their price (and you do want the moulding number included), then you will be pleased to see if you can beat it.

Make sure that you tell them that you expect to be able to beat whatever they are offering, when quoting exactly like for like.

Maybe, it won't result in floods of extra orders, but these customers do as you say, then your local BB's will hate it!
 
I am happy for customers ! Maybe we need to be sensitive to the customers needs. If you cant do it why bother being angry at someone who can. Know who you are and know what you can do.
I have always told my children that shortcomings in life are learning examples. It might not be what we want now but they might be blessings in disguise.
Maybe this might be models in order to reconstruct your business. Maybe if you are "high end" it might be time to look for others vendors. If it were just one customer then heck just shrough it off but it were more than maybe its time to re-invent yourself.
 
Well.....I was at Michael's today (totally unrelated to framing, I was there just to see if ANYBODY on this planet still sells Christmas white birch branches.... neither did Michael's, by the way).

I thought I'd stop by their busy framing Dept (judging by the 19 zillion signs screaming 60% off ALL Custom Framing, I thought they surely must be raking in million$)....but the department was deserted and looked so lonely......and not even one employee was there. And the cheapo plastic ready-mades looked lonesome.

I stood there for like 5 minutes (to ask their CPF a tricky framing question.....:D) but nobody showed up!

Maybe people don't believe them anymore.
 
I was listening to the news on my way to work. There was some kind of survey, which I didnt catch all of (dang it). I think the poll had something to do with compaints on holiday sales promotions. #1 complaint was with stores that were always on sale.
 
Hey, I have an idea. Why doesn't everyone play by the same rules the BB are playing.All you have to do is put up a big 50% or 60% off banner at your store.Very easy to do just inflate your prices like the BB do and then give people what they want,witch is a good deal.That way we level the playing field.Now how hard can that be?
 
Here's an experiment I have often thought of trying.....

Get a framed piece of work you have done, and take to your local BB frame shed and ask them to quote for an identical job. (yes we have them over here as well).
The said frame should incorperate a few refinements that require just a little a bit of skill. Hand ruled French mat, fillets, that sort of thing. Basically, anything that they can't just order off the shelf. And make it a hand-finished frame.
I have a pretty good idea what the response would be. :icon21:

When I get a customer who you just know wants it as cheap as possible I tend to point them to a local 'knock 'em out cheap' outfit. The last person I did this to informed be he couldn't go there as he had been banned for hitting one of the assisants who allegedly called him a Fat B*stard. :)
He then asked me if I had any job vacancies.....
 
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