framing papyrus

donique

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Posts
1
From
Ardmore, PA
I have a customer who would like to have an egyptian papyrus mounted between 2 pieces of glass but with no frame. I know it's a horrible idea but he is not worried about the piece from a conservation standpoint. He just wants a simple presentation. Any ideas? Thanks!
 

Rick Granick

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Donor
Resource Provider
Joined
Jun 30, 1999
Posts
20,551
From
Cincinnati, OH
Does he also want something guaranteed to break and cut him and/or his kids? You might be able to talk him out of this by pointing out that by floating it against a dark mat he will be able to more readily see the layered texture of the papayrus itself. You can still make that a "simple presentation" with a simple suitable frame. If that doesn't work, at least use acrylic instead of glass. How are you planning to hold the two layers together if there is no frame, and how would it hang?
nuts.gif
Rick

P.S. Welcome to the Grumble. I didn't mean to sound snippy. It just irks me when people are adamant in requesting techniques that are improper and dangerous. (Unfortunately, I have seen this between-glass suggestion printed on the folders in which tourists purchase these papayri.... Oh well, just because the ancient Egyptians were experts in preserving things doesn't mean their modern-day counterparts are. :rolleyes: )
 

Ron Eggers

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 6, 2001
Posts
16,932
From
Wisconsin
techniques that are improper and dangerous
Not to mention technically-challenging (i.e. expensive.)

I've always thought that anyone looking for a non-frame presentation should go to a non-framer.

Maybe a podiatrist.
 

Kit

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Aug 31, 2000
Posts
2,513
From
Rochester, MN
Welcome to the Grumble, Donique.

Your location reminds me of all the times I took the train from Paoli into Phila. I still have all the stops memorized. It's scary the stuff that sticks in your brain.

Customers ALWAYS want their papyri mounted between two pieces of glass. As Rick said, that's the way they're exhibited in Egyptian shops. I can usually discourage this idea by pointing out that the climate in Minnesota (or Pennsylvania) is nothing like the climate in Egypt. This argument works best in the summer when the humidity is 90%.

Yes, the art is relatively inexpensive - until you factor in the cost of a return trip to acquire another one.

If you do manage to talk him into a mat, remember that these paintings are never square and never done on the straight of grain. That's why I like the suggestion of floating the piece against a dark background.

Kit
 

Puppyraiser

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 10, 1999
Posts
6,569
From
Maryland
Business
Howards retired
When I went to Egypt (stop me if I have told you this story before...) we were taken to the 'Papyrus Museum' (uh huh) where we saw a 5 minute demo on the making of papyrus, and then had half an hour to stroll through the Gift Shop (which was 95% of the floor space of the 'museum'. I wanted to buy a piece that had the (for want of a better term) deckling on it, instead of the one offered for sale and enquired if this was available with the deckled edge. 'Yes indeed it is" says the guy as he pulls out a DINNER FORK and proceeds to rake the edges. So much for authenticity. And Yes, the museum showed them between two pieces of glass. I float mounted my souvenir on navy suede and floated a triple mat above it, far enough away from the edges to minimize the non-squareness. I have sold that design several times.
 

BILL WARD

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Posts
2,451
From
Tampa, FL
Ellen, wouldnt happen to have photo of this would you??? We'd like to see how you did the triple....
Has anyone out there ACTUALLY done the glass-to-glass thing??? 2 questions:1-how did you get the 2 pieces of glass to come/stay together, 2-how did you affix the hanger when there is nothing to attach to
 

BUDDY

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Charter Member
Joined
Sep 16, 1998
Posts
11,498
From
Mandeville,La. USA 130 Blue Heron Dr.
donique ;please accept my whole hardy welcomes also.
Now to the topic of Papyrus art. There are some that may be of some significant value .And there are others that maybe from Egypt ( but I suspect that they all are.) In fact I once had a good friend and customer that was from Egypt ( Dr Ezam Elmorshedy)he brought me a stack of these prints "His brother had sent him Direct from Egypt." But then I learned that the same art was available at the local flea market for about $3-5 a piece. Point being the fact that they are Papyrus and direct from Egypt doesn't mean that they are anything special ( but they could be for some other reason) so check with your customer before sandwiching them between two sheets of glass.

But if they aren't any thing special try using mats to allow the irregular texture to show ( at least minimally ,while still showing some clear glass and then if they agree you can obtain these clear acrylic clips that fit on four sides and hold the glass together which are secured by a string and spring in the rear.( I forget their name)

They aren't a recommended framing method for their contact with the glass and they do expose the sharp edges of the glass ( which you should burnish with a stone anyway) and they aren't very attractive BUT they are CHEAP and QUICK and EASY.

Just be sure you are dealing with the souvenir type print and the customer understands all the flaws of the system before you do any of this.
BUDDY
PS if you do it right you can tell them "later they can bring the pieces back and you'll be gald to place and appropriate frame of their choice over the alredy made up sandwich and make them MORE attractive and less hazardous." maybe some thing of an Egyptian design like Cheops.LOL
 

Bob Doyle

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 14, 2002
Posts
19,504
From
South Berwick, Maine
Here's a link I got from this site and thought I would recycle it! Heavy duty glass clips and plexi stand-offs. In the interest of full disclosure I have never ordered from these people, but I do like the products and ideas. Put together a price quote for your customer and they may go for the frame instead!

Guess they wanted to get it done on the <strike>Cheops</strike> cheap.

Welcome to the grumble BTW!
 

Bill Henry-

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Posts
20,884
From
Boondock Bowerbank, ME
Business
Retired from the grind
Donique,

Welcome to the Grumble.

Guess they wanted to get it done on the <strike>Cheops</strike> cheap.
Bob,

You ought to be ashamed of yourself!


Bill,

I have done the glass-to-glass on a few occasions when the customer has absotively, positutely insisted (it came with instructions straight from Egypt after all).

After the “sandwich”, I clamped the pieces together and ran a line of electricians tape around the perimeter of the two sheets of glass. The PITA part was trimming the tape so that it was equal on both sides of the glass and removing the residual adhesive without disturbing the tape.

I also had the customers sign a waiver which stated that this was not the preferred way of doing it.
 

Leslie S.

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 11, 2002
Posts
710
From
Waxahachie, TX
Donique,
I will step up and admit that I have floated a papyrus between 2 sheets of glass, but I used a thin bamboo frame around the outside and a piece of quarter-round to finish off the back. I attached it with very tiny dots of cornerweld in two spots (about the same spot as float-mount hinges would go). That was enough to keep it in place. I also told her that it might not stay in place, but that has been several years ago and she has not brought it in to be fixed...yet.
I explained first to my customer all the baaadd stuff that could/would happen to the piece. She was a good repeat customer, but very bossy and also very wealthy (read...used to getting her way). Cost was not the issue, she just wanted it to look a certain way. I figured that it was her (cheap, easily replacable) art and after educating her about the possibilities I had better do it her way or risk losing a customer.

Right now I have a customer who wants to do the glass, no frame thing with an old "the Graduate" poster. The poster is extremely tattered. It belonged to his uncle who had it hanging up for years with thumb tacks. Again, this is not due to money. He spends lots on framing, he just wants this to look a certain way. Bob, the link to the Stand-Offs was great. I've been scratching my head over how to accomplish this without my magic wand. The problem with the clip/string thingies is that they show through the glass, and also they are intended to be used with one sheet of glass and a layer of foam-core, so 2 sheets of glass are not thick enough to be held together tightly enough.

As a side note, let me just say that I have a limit as to what I will do even to please a customer. There are lots of things I would refuse to frame in this manner, even at the risk of losing the customer.
 

Bob Doyle

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 14, 2002
Posts
19,504
From
South Berwick, Maine
Bill I am only slightly sorry for the pun. More so for what I am about to type however!

Someone came in once and wanted a similar treatment for some Nigerian currency (it was from a secret bank transaction set up via e-mail. He got $100000000 from the deal for helping......) They brought it back with them from their stint in the Peace Corps.

Instead of electricians tape I used the the Lineco Frame Sealing tape. The cash was sandwiched between 6 sheets of glass and was to be used as a paperweight. It was pretty cool when done, neat memory/momento.
 

Uncle Eli

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 2, 2005
Posts
554
From
Sunny Malibu CA.
I have a very loyal customer who is a world Taveler. He bought a few Papyruss Pieces and he too told me he saw a piece like this one just sandwiched between some glass, and he loved it. Now I said I can't very well with a clean concious do that, but he had his heart set on it. So I found a way the piece is actually housed between to very thin pieces of Acid Free, PVC Free Mylar, with two very small dots of Nori Paste on the back side to keep it in place. Then that package is suspended between two pieces of Conservation Reflection Control Glass, With The edges sealed with a very small bead of Silicone and Hung with two D-rings on each of the upright legs, so it hangs on two hooks.
 

Val

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Posts
6,729
From
Carson City, Nevada
Eli, how did you attach the D-rings?

I've also given in to the between-glass request (demand?) for the papyrus pieces, after trying to talk them into something safer. I wrapped the edge with copper foil tape, like is used in making stained glass, then soldered copper wire loops at each top corner and attached a metal chain and hung on a decorative hook. The copper is often complimentary to the metallic paint on some of them. If not, a liquid patina will change the copper color.
 

D_Derbonne

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 12, 2001
Posts
5,345
From
Middleburg, FL
Yikes! I had a customer bring me 5 papyri to frame this morning.
They have all been rolled for a few years and she wants them floated on black matboard. Won't that be fun!

At least I don't have to float 'em between glass!

Val, I would be careful with the copper foil. I have had the foil let go on some mirror pieces I have made because they were too heavy.
It usually doesn't happen right away and is quite exciting when they suddenly leap off the wall.
 

Framerguy

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Apr 12, 2001
Posts
7,261
From
Destin, Florida
Oh man, don't tell me those papyrus guys are at it again!! It seems like they run in waves like TK off the internet or cruise art at certain times of the year.

Framerguy
 

Val

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Posts
6,729
From
Carson City, Nevada
Yeah Deb, I won't do it unless they're the smaller ones. On the other hand, I have a couple of fairly large stained glass pieces at home that have hung that way for years. But they're MY pieces so I'm willing to take the gamble. Now that we've talked about it, they'll probably hear and start leaping off the wall!

Man, when I see those papyrus pieces I just know I'll hear the glass-sandwich thing and I cringe. Usually, I can talk them out of it, but sometimes I get a stubborn one.
 

Rick Granick

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Donor
Resource Provider
Joined
Jun 30, 1999
Posts
20,551
From
Cincinnati, OH
Oh man, don't tell me those papyrus guys are at it again!!
Yep, the returning tourists will be wanting us to Ramses things into some frames any time now.
:rolleyes: Rick

Best reason not to put the glass right against the surface of these is that they are painted with a goache-like paint which would suffer mightily from any moisture condensation.

Paul- if you are floating this on a mat, you can hinge it as you would any print, using pass-thru hinges. Try to locate them behind a heavy part of the papayrus texture so they won't be seen.

P.S. Anyone ever see a piece of really ancient papayrus in a good museum collection? The texture is extremely fine, almost like a linen weave. It's a far cry from some of the ones we see nowadays that have a texture more like one of Betty's chair caning projects.
 

Framerguy

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Apr 12, 2001
Posts
7,261
From
Destin, Florida
I really wish those papyrus guys would at least charge a bunch more for them. I get truly tired of hearing, "I didn't pay alot for this and I don't want to put alot into it BUT ............."

(Could you show me all of the frame and mat samples in the house so I can finally pick the very first one you showed me??)

I wonder if there is a chapter in Art Appreciation 101 that states, "Do this to a framer every chance you get and watch him try to remain calm."
shrug.gif


Framerguy
 

Greg Fremstad

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Posts
1,018
From
Eugene OR
A good way to hinge these beasts is to attach the hinge behind a heavily painted part of the design. This keeps the hinges from showing through the material. This method would only work with pass-through hinges of course.
 

Paul N

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Posts
17,354
From
CT, not far from the LI Sound
Originally posted by Framerguy:

(Could you show me all of the frame and mat samples in the house so I can finally pick the very first one you showed me??)
So, it is not just me!

Happens like 9/10 times! They always go back to the first mat / frame I showed them!!
 

Lance E

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 31, 1999
Posts
3,869
From
Hamilton, New Zealand
Business
Imageland
No offense here Paul but if your approach fails 9/10 times then perhaps you need to address they way in which you present your idea - one thought is maybe if you hold it off for the first few selections and then go "wham", or alternatively up the energy in the presentation of the idea you know is right - something to that effect, there are way to many options to list but you should be trying as many as you can, your customers will appreciate it when it saves them time.

To the topic, Papyrus wedged between glass, tell them they're nuts, if they don't punch you and don't want to change then you'll need 2 peices of tempered (?) glass, I have used a 3mm on the front with a 4mm back and had my supplier drill the holes for me.
 
Top