Framing Movie Posters

Create a Post
Status
Not open for further replies.
Wow, Jack! I had no idea that we picture framers are such a ill-informed, inept and dishonest bunch. I'm going to have to mend my ways immediately!

This is an intersting piece. I'll be anxious to see if Marc Lizer knows this outfit in Hollywood.

Of all the interesting statements on this site, one of my favorites is this:

First off, glass is a no-no! Not only does it break, but it is loaded with acid and absorbs heat and anything else that is floating around the air, thus creating an environment for fading and decay.
Click to expand...
It's also interesting to me that the author mentions mats and spacers only in passing, and then implies that they are expensive add-ons that unscrupulous framers use to jack up the price.
 
Ron beat me to it...glass is "loaded with acid"?

And shouldn't she be promoting rag backer instead of acid free foam core if she's so concerned about conservation practices?

I skimmed the article quickly. Was there any mention of hinging? And does she promote allowing the plexi to touch the poster? (Seth once inquired about that practice. I don't remember what was decided.)

Otherwise, some useful info.
 
Depending on source of manufacture and type of glass, glass is acid washed/dipped and could cause problems if not cleaned with great care, think about how you hands feel after a day of handling lot’s of glass!!!!!!!!!!
 
Question: What's tackier than trashing everyone else to make yourself look good?

Answer: Charging $49.00 to do it.

Kit
 
We agree with Ron in saying we didn’t know we were all so dishonest. We thought our main goal is to educate our customers in the correct way to frame their collectables and allow them to make a decision on how much they are willing to spend on the piece at hand. We never realized we snapped an arm. :eek: Jeff and Donna
 
HI!
I'm the owner of LearnAboutMoviePosters.com
I did a reverse link back from the traffic to find this site which is of great interest to me.
I put Sue Heim's write-up on the site because she's the most knowledgeable that I know of when it comes 'strictly' to handling movie posters.
As a poster collector myself for almost 30 years, unfortunately from personal experience, the majority of times that I have dealt with a regular framer, there has been problems. It seems primarily because regular framers don't know the differences in handling movie posters as opposed to regular artwork.
Since LearnAbout... is a reference site, I'm definately interested in other comments and valid points of view. We get about 1000 collectors a day to the site so it's my responsibility to verify and check out every direction that I can.
Any genuine comments, public or private will be welcomed
thanks,
edp
edp@LearnAboutMoviePosters.com
 
LOL such a wonderfully incorrect rant is a great start to the day. Though it's not so funny when you think that customers may actually read this BS.
I especially like the acid glass thing also, I would be very interested to know what evidence there is to support such a claim.

EDP, I strongly suggest that you use the archives from this forum (search function at the top of this page) to gather some more information regarding some of the claims made by your representative, you will find an abundence of information regarding most issues generally with references to or from reliable sources.
It would be well worth your time as false claims made by a representative of your company may result in a less than desirable situation.

Heres a couple of links to get you started Plexi Kwestion
Plexi for thoe BIG vintage posters
 
I do see her point about Plexi, but I myself have never broken the glass on any picture of mine, and if the poster in question is so incredibly valuable, it seems that the person who owns it would/should take as much care with it as they would with any really valuable object. It seems foolish to me to say that you should never put glass on any valuable artifact; just don't hire the cheapest movers you can get your hands on. (Which was usually the reason behind the broken glass I encountered at the frame shop I worked at.)

Nor does Sue say anything about how to find a good framer vs. a bad one; she basically trashes all other framers and recommends herself. What she doesn't say is that framing is like any other contract job; the lowest bid is usually not the best person for the job. If the art is valuable, the framer should be selected just as carefully as the artwork was. And I've worked in the business long enough to know that the very people who spend $1000 on the artwork often want to spend less than $100 on the framing.

You get what you pay for.
 
Lance

How do you think they wash glass…….with water!!!!!!!!!!!! ……….no way glass is washed with water and an acid additive and in some cases with acid only…………ever hear of etched glass (non reflective/non glare)…how do you think they etch it…………………believe me I handled glass by the ton lots (20/22 ton in a container) a few years ago and would have cut a ton or two of glass in a day, it had some type of acid on it.

Most picture framing glass comes out of China, India, Indonesia, South Africa and Russia one of the reasons other countries dropped production was the environmental impact of processing glass…………..acid.

I repeat if glass is not cleaned very carefully it will retain the wash acid, as a BTW the cleaner you use for glass will in some/most cases be classified as an acid.

See my other post about external contamination of a framing package.

Do you think the paper that is used to interleave glass is acid free.

I guess it is easy to laugh at what we don’t understand.
 
So, Dermot, is there a trick to "cleaning glass carefully" so that all the acids are removed?
A special technique or cleaner? I'm serious- if just plain old washing with paper towels and our various concoctions may not be enough, then what else could/should we be doing?

EDP, interesting notes about picture framing. I would like to see more mention of mats, however. (as others have noted) When it comes to artwork preservation, mats can be the single most effective framing component... As long as they are acid-free/rag of course. Unfortunately they WILL usually increase the overall size of the framed package and the price accordingly.
And I agree with Audrey, it IS usually careless handling that causes glass to break. But plexiglas is what I mostly use anyway, since these pups are usually in the oversize range.

I do have a few questions about the linen backing on those posters. Are they 100% acid free? The paper facing (which is directly behind the poster) somehow has looked (and felt) a bit iffy to me. And what kind of adhesive or paste holds these to their backers? Is it reversible? Has the paper of the posters been de-acidified at all?
What are the concepts that apply to framing "regular artwork" that differ from framing movie posters?

The general notion about fome core is that it is on the conservation framing continuum- but not as a direct backer for the artwork. It is on the low end of acceptable as a filler- there are concerns about the fome core "outgassing" that are still unaddressed. However it is less of a concern the more time there is between manufacturing and utilization. I have also noticed that without exposure to excessive heat and light and smoke, the fome core does not have the as much of a tendency to become brittle. In other words, in normal conditions in a frame, the fome core seems to stay "status quo."The acidity of the facing paper is not a concern as long as "acid-free" fome core is used.
Keep us posted!
-Edie the fg
:cool:
 
(Sometimes I ask myself why do I open these doors and peek into a room that I already KNOW is full of spiders and boogeymen??)

edp,

Boy, where do I start? Let's start with your experiences first. You say that most of your framing experiences have been bad using "regular" framers. What are the different classifications of framers? I guess I missed that page in the manual when I read it. Is there a certified "poster" framer classification?

Your "expert" rambles on about the rip artist framers out there tacking on "add ons" to a frame job to jack up the price. OK, I went to all three of your framing "options" and "ordered a 27x40 frame and here's what I found:

Basic Framing: aluminum frame, regular plexi, regular foamcore (I guess), $49.00. Shipping, $39.00, buuuuuuttttttt, you have to order a minimum of TWO frames to get a shipment because your boxes only hold 2 frames. OK, that increases the price to $98.00 + $39.00 S&H for a total of $137.00 for two basic frames (one of which I didn't want in the first place)

Next frame is an Archival: Little bigger aluminum frame, (I hope), $79.00, AAAHHHH, now you get the choice of UV plexi. for another $20.00 (extra) AND an "archival" mat (Of unidentifiable origin) for another $40.00 (extra) and S&H remains at a modest? $39.00 (but, again, you must order 2 frames to get a shipping box) so we have a $139.00 frame (X 2), and $39.00 S&H for a total of $317.00.

And finally, the Deluxe: Hopefully a little larger than the Archival frame for $99.00, choice of UV plexi for $20.00, (extra) and an "archival" mat (same size as the "Archival" mat) for $45.00, (extra) (haven't figured out how the mat increased in value from "Archival" to "Deluxe" in the same size), and the same ol' $39.00 S&H. Now, with the extra frame to qualify me for a shipping container, the total comes to $367.00.

No means were indicated to create an airspace between the plexi. and the poster, I am still curious which brand and type of "archival" matboard you are using, and the frames appear to be generic extrudes that can be bought in quantity for a few cents a foot.

Point is, when the shoe is on the other foot, I don't imagine you appreciate being "dissed" by a bunch of framers who have been doing this work for many more years than you have been collecting posters. Your resident "expert" can say what she wants about "regular" framers. Just be aware that WE TOO can speak out and rectify a few misdirected comments that she is making to your 1000 visiting collectors each day.

I think you should consider getting a "second opinion" before you let her continue badmouthing the rest of the profession.

Framerguy

(Edit) I should qualify this post by saying that I am speaking for myself only and not the framing profession. You may well find that everyone else agrees with your "expert" and I am simply "venting".
 
Hi!
I must say that I'm a little impressed with the responses. In all honesty, I had expected 2 types of responses, the old time know-it-all - that's the way it's done framers and the new guy all-talk, little knowledge type.(I get a lot of those in the poster collector forums:)

I guess I was hoping to present the problems and concerns of poster collectors and try to get some framers to become more aware (and NOT continually destroy our movie collectibles) of the problems and concerns in our hobby

I wish I had a nickel for every young poster collector that I've had to tell that the framer they took it to didn't have a clue how to handle movie posters and had drastically reduced the value of their poster by 'dry mounting' it.

As for the remarks about cleaning the glass or acid glass. I don't know anything about that AND it doesn't mean ANYTHING to a poster collector. What does mean something.....
one of my favorite posters.. a Beetlejuice autographed to my wife and I by Tim Burton is sitting in my garage ripped to shreds because the glass sliced thru it when it fell from all the weight.
That means something to a poster collector. I constantly get such horror stories

I've replaced 4 posters to different framers that were so ignorant in handling movie posters that they dry mounted the posters from the wrong side. a double no-no

The dealer that mentioned mats.. it's only a minimal concern because most collectors handle one sheets and up (27x40 or 27x41 and larger). Matting it usually isn't even discussed.

Now as for the write up that I put on my site from Sue Heim. It will remain and stay prominant on the site for several reasons.
First, she's the framer for Disney, Warner Brothers and Universal. All their lobby posters are done BY HER. In the eyes of poster collectors, you can't get much higher recommendation. Next, she has the recommendation of every major poster restorer in the hobby that I know of.
Finally, of the hundreds of framings that I personally know of, I am yet to receive ONE bad comment about her work from a poster collector.

With the bad reputation of framers in our hobby versus Sue's reputation, if she said we had to stand on one leg and hang it with one eye closed, that's what would be done by the majority of our industry

My hope is that framers will wake up and realize that they're being cut out more and more from our hobby (which is growing by leaps and bounds world wide) by lack of interest and education of the special needs of movie poster collectors.

edp
 
I respect EDP's honest response, but I will stand by my original statement, which is that it's bad business to shred the reputations of your competitors for your own gain. Nor do I think that movie posters have "special needs," any more than any valuable piece of artwork. All valuable artwork has "special needs." It's called conservation framing, and it requires extensive knowledge on the part of the framer to do it right. And even then, it's no guarantee; at best, the framer can control only a percentage of the possibility of damage to a piece of artwork. (Ask Orton for the scary science there.)

I do agree that there are unscrupulous framers out there, but no more than in any other business. I think that, honestly, my biggest "beef" with Sue's post is the attitude that most framers are the enemy, out to "get" the unsuspecting poster collector. This simply isn't true. Find a framer who is recommended in the field, by people who know what they're talking about, and be prepared to pay for their services. (This is the same kind of research required for any personal service, whether it's a hairdresser or a lawyer.) A good framer's goal is to enhance the appearance and lifespan of any valuable piece of artwork, to the best of their ability.

And, on this forum alone, there are hundreds of good framers. And Sue has done all of them a disservice.
 
EDP, I think it is truely wonderful that you have such faith in the framer to whom you rely on for your information, might I suggest that a little research on your behalf regarding some of the claims as new information does become available over time and traditional methods may not always be the problem. Keeping an eye on the Grumble will most certainly be beneficial for both yourself and Sue, your contributions would add another perspective from a viewpoint that may otherwise be missed. I'm sure you will find that many members of this forum will admit that they once thought they knew almost everything there was to know about the industry and now realise that the learning may well never end.
Regarding the glass issue I am well aware of the acid being used for etching matobel glass and also for cleaning, however what is the likelyhood that the Tru-Vue glass that so many of us use and trust (maybe with blissful ignorance) may still be contaminated with harmful acids when we recieve and use it?

Also EDP, welcome to the Grumble.
 
Has anyone suggested that Sue join us?

The message is okay but I think it could be softened. Perhaps the text should be edited to less self serving. Especially the end. Negative comments about other framers in this industry hurt everyone including her.

Her presentation message is very confrontational.

EDP, I know your heart is in the right place, but perhaps you should have your PR person edit the text in this framers message. It may not be a positive element to your website. This may lead some to think you are financially involved with Sue. That was my first thought.

Perhaps, you could give the public a printable list of questions or instructions for folks to give or ask their framer with a few quotes from your framer.
 
The first time I was at Disneyworld after learning how to frame animation cels in an archival manner, I was surprised to see only paper mats on all the art in the big art store. And overcuts? Whoa!
I have also taken apart a number of animation cels (we have a Bigtime collector here in town, not a sericel in HIS house!)and found most of them not framed correctly i.e. paper mats, cel against background with no recto verso mat (and the inevitable paint transfer, which you can bet I left alone after informing the customer.) So, EDP, don't believe everything your framer tells you, and I promise I won't believe everything "experts" tell me, either.
 
Welcome to The Grumble edp.

I am curious, how did the glass break in your poster?

You know it amazes me how much misinformation is available to the public. Just put in a little amount of truth and bam you’re an expert. This is a perfect example of why I agree with Nona’s post of the Facts Guidelines. http://thegrumble.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003115

Our industry needs to support Facts. This is from the Facts website.


FACTS evolved from the ever-increasing need for information about the preservation of artwork and keepsakes. Ignorance and misinformation results in an annual loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars, as countless items both public and personal are damaged or destroyed each year. A simple fact is, if artwork and keepsakes are-going to last they need proper care and periodic maintenance. FACTS recognized a need for reliable information and FACTS is working to establish a much-needed single source of reliable, proven information.

www.artfacts.org

Thanks to everyone for their responses. :cool:
Jack
 
Hi again, edp, thanks for responding. (and welcome to our humble grumble)

I am glad you are checking in here.

I am still curious about the linen-backing process.

Matting is an excellent option on these pieces. I wish it would be discussed! I wish that poster collectors would consider matting their "default" framing treatment- it sure would circumvent problems with "spacers." Matting these large and flimsy-ish pieces would provide for a more secure framed package and offer more support to the piece. It helps us framers hugely to have the room at the top to hide our hinges. I have to tell customers (including seasoned collectors) repeatedly that pieces like this will not lay flat in a frame and that some contraction and expansion is to be expected. This means that the poster paper will have a "loose" look (as opposed to a tight, flat look) and that this is normal. I wish you could put a note in your site that expresses this. I cannot tell you how many times I've had to refuse jobs where the customer insisted on wanting to see his/her valuable poster laying perfectly flat in the frame and to know that only irreversible dry-mounting would accomplish this. It smarts like heck to have to turn this job away only to know that another framer would just go ahead and do it. So, a mention of this would be greatly helpful.
Also a note on the glass... this is also to all you Grumblers who took part in the "dust-sealing" discussion:
If you, as a framer, dust seal the edge of the glass, damage to artwork from broken glass is indeed minimized. That slippy-sliding business does not happen. Shattered glass can still be a problem, though.
Maybe we can all put our heads together and compose a "user-friendly" list of guidelines for new poster collectors that they can take to any framer anywhere.
I would also suggest to collectors some sort of written appraisal of each poster framed. I'm awfully smart on a good day, but I usually have no idea of the worth of an item being framed unless my customer tells me. Usually I can pick up hints from my customers, but it is not in bad taste to tell me exactly what the poster is worth. I would welcome the information and it would help me suggest appropriate framing for pieces of value.
I am also extending the invitation to Sue to join us here!
Best,
Edie the fg
 
Good morning!
I must say that it's nice to have both intellegent and interested responses. I'm more used to comments like.... 'is that an original reprint or just a copy?'

FYI..Now I spend the majority of my time trying to educate poster collectors on the in's and out's of poster collecting. Our site is becoming the center of the hobby and growing extremely fast. I don't know if anyone took a look at any of the rest of the 2000 pages on LearnAbout... I add about 30 to 60 pages a day. My wife and I also wrote the reference book 'Collecting Movie Posters' and we write a column in 'Movie Collectors World' teaching beginners.

The comments from Audrey about ALL artwork having 'special needs' is true but the difference is that almost all the framers that we've come in contact with so far seem to put movie posters in the catagory of ALL artwork and proceed without asking or even caring about if there are any differences. Let me give you a couple of examples...

Before 1984, there is a couple of marks on the BACKSIDE of the poster that's crucial to poster collectors. One is called the NSS# stamp and is one of the major ways to tell some fakes from originals. There are actually a group that dry mounts fakes and pass them off as originals. There is also international issues that are printed in the US for distribution to English speaking countries. This poster draws less value than the regular issue. Some people intentionally cover this mark and then pass it off for the higher counterpart.
One of the first things we try to teach beginners is to look at the backside. If there has been restoration, the best place to see what was done is the backside.

Almost every framer we know of jumps out and tries to dry mount the poster 'thinking' they're making it look better when in fact they're cutting the value in half. The point is ... that they NEVER ASK.

You might find this interesting, I'm the only movie poster appraiser in Louisiana. A few years ago I was called down to a famous art gallery(and framer) here in New Orleans in the French Quarter. She had been to some type of art auctions and had purchased a beautifully framed 'Gone With the Wind' poster that was auctioned as 'an original movie poster'. This was one of the most beautiful frames that I had ever seen and must have been worth $1000 or more.
She ask me to appraise the poster. I told her that I couldn't without taking it out of the frame. She reluctantly removed it from the frame (which had that paper covering over it). After working on it to finally get to the back which had been well covered, I found that it was a re-issue (not a reprint) A re-issue IS an original poster but issued at a later date. Which meant, instead of the $40,000 poster, I wholesaled that year of re-issue for about $40. I don't think I have ever seen anyone that angry!!! She wouldn't tell me how much she paid, she just paid me and I don't think she has ever handled original vintage movie posters again. (But it sure was a pretty frame)

Poster collectors are funny people, they'll spend $1000 for a poster, then if they can find one they'll stick it in a $30 frame. and I'll tell you why.
As a collector at heart, when you get a piece or collection of pieces. You can't be spending a lot of money on FRAMES...... that money could buy other posters!!!
When we had our retail store, we had over 100,000 posters in stock. I had collected 2-3000 posters before I ever started selling any off.
Most poster collectors don't have 5 or 10, they'll get hundreds. There's no way to frame these or you'd go bankrupt.

well sorry to ramble on but I have to stop and get some work done.
edp
 
I think this is one of most interesting threads we've had in a while and I'm so glad edp found his way here so we can learn from one-another.

There have been a several threads lately about the care and framing of large vintage movie posters so it would be presumptuous for us to think that these procedures are common knowledge. Even among Grumblers, there have been lively discussions about this. Probably the one thing we would all agree on is we don't dry mount collectibles.

I like to think that The Grumble represents the framing elite. Even among the very new framers and those that are just considering a framing career, the people who participate here are the ones that want to learn and share and "keep on top of things." I'm guessing the vast majority of framers never visit this forum, never go to a workshop or seminar and never talk to framers outside of their own shop. So I have no problem believing that visiting some of these framers with a valuable collectible might be asking for trouble.

I've framed maybe a dozen valuable movie posters in 25 years and have always opted for the most conservative possible approach - including rag mats and UV glazing (when it became available.) The last one I did cost $1600 to frame but, in fairness, it was a huge burl frame, and not the mats or UV glazing, that drove the cost up. I am not expert enough or confident enough to use spacers in place of mats or to think about pinning or "stretching" the canvas backing instead of hinging. If I framed as many of these as, say, Seth, I'd probably learn about the alternatives.
 
Originally posted by edp:
Good morning!

Poster collectors are funny people, they'll spend $1000 for a poster, then if they can find one they'll stick it in a $30 frame. and I'll tell you why.
As a collector at heart, when you get a piece or collection of pieces. You can't be spending a lot of money on FRAMES...... that money could buy other posters!!!
When we had our retail store, we had over 100,000 posters in stock. I had collected 2-3000 posters before I ever started selling any off.
Most poster collectors don't have 5 or 10, they'll get hundreds. There's no way to frame these or you'd go bankrupt.

well sorry to ramble on but I have to stop and get some work done.
edp
Click to expand...
Well, edp, framers are funny people also. I'm sorry but I am not particularly sympathetic to your argument about "buying a $1000.00 poster and having to put it into a $30.00 frame". The last paragraph of your post simply dredged up an oft-told story in frame shops across the country. "I paid $xxx.xx for this wonderful piece when I was in Italy but I don't want to spend too much to get it framed." How would you feel if I walked into your poster shop and demeaned your posters that way?

Sure, I realize that one cannot frame 500 posters and make any money at marketing them but, it is the attitude that is taken about framers that infers that all the problems that occur with framing posters is the fault of the framer.

Your "expert" frames for Disney and MGM and probably all of Hollywood. Well there are those of us who frame for major art museums, the White House, the Pentagon, and for most of the major world events that occur today. Where do you think the framing in virtually every building that you could enter came from? Restaurants, businesses, corporations, gas stations, libraries, fast food shops, insurance agencies, real estate offices, you name the place and some framer has helped to enhance the looks of the interior of that building or office.

Have you considered that, if you approach certain framers with the "$30.00 frame" syndrome, they will give you exactly what you ask for, an improper framing which won't do the image a bit of good. For that is all that $30.00 will buy with today's prices.

I would suggest that the very BEST investment you and your collectors could make would be a good quality flat file to store all of your posters in and then you would have little reason to blame any of the "regular" framers if your posters become less than you expect.

BTW, I understand completely why you prefer plexiglas to regular glass to house your art. It is much more flexible and will stand much more abuse than regular glass and with that $30.00 frame wrapped around it, plexiglas is the ONLY thing that will stand the flexing and abuse of a cheap frame of that large size.

Framerguy
 
HI!
If more framers would take the attitude and concern of Ron Eggers, the framing industry would be a lot more acceptable to movie poster collectors ... BUT
I send Sue dozens of customers a month primarily because of framers like framerguy that don't understand us and never will.
This is the kind of framer that you take a $1000 poster and he'll frame it beautifully in a $200 frame and when the collector leaves he has a beautiful framed poster that now is worth $500 or less but looks great and then when he tells ANY knowledgable collector, he'll be scolded for ruining his great poster and told to spread the word not to let any other poster collector near them because they don't know what they're doing.
I'll recommend beginners bag it in archival bags before I would send them to framers like this.
and yes I'm sure he does a wonderful job for the White House and gas stations and restaurants. But I doubt a single one of those places proudly shows off THE BACK or the BORDER of any of these.
The frame to us is totally insignificant. What we look for is someone who will give us what it takes to protect it and show it with as LITTLE INTERFERENCE AS POSSIBLE to the poster. and then we will get LOTS OF THEM.
edp
 
edp, don't be too hard on Framerguy. I've visited his shop and I've seen his work and he's a very capable and creative framer. He's also a very decent guy, though more easily offended than I am. (For that matter, nearly everyone is more easily offended than I am.) Unfortunately, he sometimes comes across as what I call a 'forum fighter,' but I think it's only because he's so passionate about what he does.

He almost certainly doesn't need me to defend his honor, but we have to be careful about drawing sweeping conclusions from a few forum posts. I'm not really nearly as open-minded as I try to come across on this forum and Framerguy is MUCH nicer in person.
 
Holy cats. I leave for a few days and this is what I come back to. Everything I have to say has probably been said already, perhaps more eloquently, but I'm not going to bite my tongue.

Ok, on pieces as large as your typical movie poster, acrylic is a better glazing option because of weight and the danger of damage from broken glass. HOWEVER, glass is NOT "loaded with acid" nor does it "absorb heat and anything else floating about in the air."

And what was this about "regular" framers? I consider myself to be a pretty good picture framer, I'm a member of the PPFA and a CPF. I try to stay on top of all the new materials, techinques and trends. If there is some huge gap in my education, please let me know so that I can tap into this huge market of movie posters. Is there a Movie Poster Framers Association? Is there a test I should take to become a Certified Movie Poster Framer?

You say that most framers you know drymount the posters, slashing their value. Sounds like you don't know the right framers. I doubt if any of us here on the Grumble appreciate being tarred with the same brush.

And we're supposed to be sympathetic to the people who spend $5,000 on a poster and then want a $30 frame? Not from me, dear. Did it ever occur to you that these horrible frame jobs come from the people willing to do it for $30? I suppose that's one of the "special needs" of the collector. You get what you pay for. That's like the car collector whining about the cost to build a garage to house his $75,000 Porsche. Boo hoo.

I must say that it's nice to have both intellegent and interested responses. I'm more used to comments like.... 'is that an original reprint or just a copy?'
Click to expand...
Well gee, thanks. Can we say condescending?

So Sue does work for Disney and a bunch of other big clients? How nice for her. I've done work for CEO's, a major defense contractor and the state bar. That doesn't mean that I'm the Alpha and Omega of framing, any more than it makes me a lawyer or aerospace engineer.

I better stop now.

No, wait. Trashing the entire industry to make yourself look better? Ticky tacky.
 
I'm sorry if I came off a little harsh and I definately didn't mean to be 'condescending'. It was meant strictly as a compliment. When you deal with poster collectors you're jumping from every level, and not just professionals.

I guess I've come over here because I would like to see a change. To poster collectors, framers have taken the spot beneath used car salesmen, basically from fear. The problem is that it shouldn't be so because you are actually a lot more knowledgable about preservation than we are but no one has ever adjusted it to our type of collectibles.

Sue is so swamped she's had to add additional people just to handle all the framing. and NO to the comment that she's a representative of mine, but when you find someone that won't destroy your posters you send everyone you can to them.

On the other hand, we recommend beginners by generic frames (we've probably kept Suncoast afloat from sending so many people to get the 27x40s) instead of taking the risks of uneducated framers

Years ago I special ordered the first shipment of 27x41 frames from Frames USA trying to find alternatives. They've changed hands since but it's odd that they still carry that size in their inventory.

It seems like a viable area for both if common ground can be found.

The thought that was made of a movie poster group may not be that bad of an idea. If presented with the particulars about our hobby, you could probably come up with a lot wider variations. Would there be interest in this direction?

My site is the largest in our hobby as I said with about 1000 collectors a day from all over the world. Is it worth a special section dealing with this problem? I would be willing to work up a section to list by state, the framers that are more knowledgable about poster collecting if that's even a consideration.

As I said, I'm willing to discuss any suggestions, publicly or privately
edp
 
edp, I forgot to mention that, while I find this discussion interesting and mostly healthy, I did think that the information on the website about framing was, at best, misleading and at times outrageous.

I think there is very little confusion among the better framers about how to frame vintage movie posters properly. They SHOULD be framed as fine art collectables. In my mind, that still means rag mats, UV glazing (abrasion-resident, UV-filtering Cyro Acrylite would be my choice,)reversable hinges, 4-ply rag backing and archival corrugated filler in either a metal frame or a wood frame with a sealed rabbet. The real dilemma is how to do that cheaply. That appears to be the real distinction between collectors of movie posters and collectors of fine art prints or originals. The latter DO care what they look like on the wall and sometimes recognize the value of proper framing and are willing to pay for it.

There is a frame shop in our town that used to advertise "frame any poster for $29.95." Presumably, that would include vintage movie posters. For $30, you'd get a small profile generic metal frame, regular glass and spray mounting on chipboard backed with corrugated. To frame one of your 27x40 posters the way I said they should be framed, I would charge $350 and up, depending on the frame. Which one of us is a crook? I'd say neither one. We just cater to very different markets.

Framers like to think that everything is suitable for framing, but it sounds to me like many collectors of movie posters need to investigate safe and sensible storage alternatives for their collections rather than look to framing as a means of storage. Proper framing serves to <u>minimize</U> the harmful effects of exposure to light, humidity, temperature fluctuations and pollutants. It's intended for people who want to enjoy their art and enhance their living or working space. A far cheaper solution for someone with different priorities is not to frame the item at all.
 
Originally posted by edp:

I guess I've come over here because I would like to see a change. To poster collectors, framers have taken the spot beneath used car salesmen, basically from fear. The problem is that it shouldn't be so because you are actually a lot more knowledgable about preservation than we are but no one has ever adjusted it to our type of collectibles.

It seems like a viable area for both if common ground can be found.

The thought that was made of a movie poster group may not be that bad of an idea. If presented with the particulars about our hobby, you could probably come up with a lot wider variations. Would there be interest in this direction?[QB]

My site is the largest in our hobby as I said with about 1000 collectors a day from all over the world. Is it worth a special section dealing with this problem? I would be willing to work up a section to list by state, the framers that are more knowledgable about poster collecting if that's even a consideration.

As I said, I'm willing to discuss any suggestions, publicly or privately
edp
Click to expand...
Hi, edp, please tell us what adjustments need to be made by us framers. What are we missing? Are most collectors interested in a bare bones type frame, but with the necessary rag mats/backings and UV plexi? Should we be considering 29 x 41 frames as a new readymade size?
I would love to include particulars in the "guidelines" that I am now mentally composing.

I am still curious about the linen backing, btw.

Please keep us posted.
 
Originally posted by edp:
But I doubt a single one of those places proudly shows off THE BACK or the BORDER of any of these.
The frame to us is totally insignificant. What we look for is someone who will give us what it takes to protect it and show it with as LITTLE INTERFERENCE AS POSSIBLE to the poster. and then we will get LOTS OF THEM.
edp
Click to expand...
EDP: While you're answering Edie's question about the linen backing, would you please explain what you mean in the above quote? Specifically, how does Sue show off the back of a poster and still protect it from the elements, pollution, and the spiders or bugs that are attracted to the back of a framed piece of art, and keep the price at $30.00?
 
Coincidently, a message just appeared on the PPFA OLEx (Professional Picture Framers on-line exchange) from a framer wondering how to mount collectible movie posters to linen backings for storage and, possibly, future framing.

edp, this exchange is only accesible to PPFA members, but I'll be watching this topic closely and will report back any interesting responses.
 
EDP--

I did not say that "all artwork" has special needs. I said all VALUABLE artwork has special needs. There's a vast difference between a Van Gogh poster and a vintage movie poster.

But I have, in my own framing experience, had many collectors of original artwork of ALL kinds come into the shop with a budget that's laughable. I had a guy come into the shop with an already-framed, original, certified cell from the Beatles movie Yellow Submarine....and all he wanted was a re-mat. He refused to listen to any other suggestions concerning its preservation, because he "didn't want to spend the money."

It was for his father, for Father's Day. And, because I am a huge Beatles fan myself, and I hated to see it in that condition, I actually re-framed it with UV glass, alpha-rag mats, and rag backing, without his knowledge or payment. This is how much it pained me to give it back to him in its original, soon-to-be-destroyed condition.

But this is the framer's quandary, EDP. Do we frame for the customer's budget, or for the artwork's safety? And, if the customer's budget won't stretch to conservation, are we to turn away their business? If $30 is all they have to spend, who are we to tell them no, when we are in the business of making money? I gave that Beatles cell special treatment, of course; no framer can afford to conservation frame for free, for the love of the artwork. But I'm sure every framer on this forum has had to make this painful decision.

I think Ron has hit the nail on the head. Framing is not a cheap storage method. If your customers cannot afford to frame all of their posters, they should invest in a much cheaper, archival storage method. It is not the framer's fault that we cannot come up with a viable $30 dollar solution that involves getting it on the wall AND preserving it. Nor is every framer so wealthy that he can afford to turn away every order that doesn't meet with his own conservation ethics.

At the end of the day, it's the customer who determines what happens to their artwork. And the usual determining factor is money.
 
Perhaps someone could give the list prices for the products that this Sue person reccommends (and possibly uses) so as we could deduce the COG represented in this legandary $30 framing.
 
Originally posted by Mel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by edp:
But I doubt a single one of those places proudly shows off THE BACK or the BORDER of any of these.
The frame to us is totally insignificant. What we look for is someone who will give us what it takes to protect it and show it with as LITTLE INTERFERENCE AS POSSIBLE to the poster. and then we will get LOTS OF THEM.
edp
Click to expand...
EDP: While you're answering Edie's question about the linen backing, would you please explain what you mean in the above quote? Specifically, how does Sue show off the back of a poster and still protect it from the elements, pollution, and the spiders or bugs that are attracted to the back of a framed piece of art, and keep the price at $30.00?</font>[/QUOTE]I am also curious about how you handle the "totally insignificant" portion of the display for your valuable posters while still giving total protection to the front AND back of the poster and do it for your $30.00 price tag.

I will ignore the other slurs that you posted about me as being done in a moment of anger on your part. I can be brutally blunt when somebody comes on a worldwide forum and "disses" the profession that I have dedicated my energies to without qualifying who they are and what their credidentials are to allow them to do so. I have read so much about your ideas of the "correct" way to handle these posters and they go against the grain of every framer who is well versed in conservation framing. We have standards that we follow and you are inferring that most of these standards mean nothing to a movie poster collector. Wow. That is way off OUR beaten path and I would wager that, if many of your poster collectors were open to conservation advice and not blindly following the "expert" advice, they would find out that maybe there IS a safer way to display their posters. After all, that is really what we are talking about here. You can find a half dozen ways to STORE those posters which will offer some sort of protection but I think that many of the movie poster collectors will want to show off their finds and will opt for a framing package that is up to conservation standards.

Framerguy
 
Hi Lance-I think she was referring to one of those plastic frames from Frames USA or the type that Suncoast carries for her $30 option.

We carry some of those for Portal prints and sometimes they fit the need perfectly. It beats having someone walk out the door thinking we are way too expensive (Yes, Virginia, there really are people like that out there). I'll take that $30 sale over a no sale. The truth is they are going to buy it somewhere, and it might as well be me.

Kinda like someone buying a disposal camera, I would guess.
 
edp,

Believe it or not, we are all on the same team.
I can actually understand about collector's wanting to spend their cash on more posters rather than framing them. I collect picture frames (old ones) and once or twice it has pained me to spend money on something to fill them! Well, maybe, not really!
But it seems to me that you have come to the right place.
Are the frames that Bob C. mentioned suitable? Can we make 'em a bit more conservation-y? Maybe it is not possible and maybe a lot of us simply will not have the time and/or space for them, but maybe we can adapt the idea to what we do. Or maybe there is a one-step-up solution that would be in our realm.
Ideas?
But please, don't criticize us on your site, The Goddess is very sensitive. *pout*
Let's offer some realistic solutions and advice to your visitors.
I know most of us would love to add our two cents. You've probably gotten more than that already!

Now about that linen backing... :confused:

Edie the Movie-Poster-Framing Goddess
 
Hey, Jack, did your 58x98 movie poster potential customer come to you after checking out this site?
hmmmmmmmmm, la la la, connect the dots...

Ah, maybe you were just doing some research...
 
I've decided not to pursue this any further. It is something that I feel too strongly about and I can't seem to respond to this guy in a positive manner so I choose not to respond at all.

Sorry for any inconvenience I have caused any of my friends here on the Grumble.

Framerguy
 
I'm not quiet sure where to start... I guess I'll start with the fact that Sue does the framing for the Disney. My husband and I are Disney fans... So much so that we are part of the Disney Vacation Club. I have been telling people for YEARS that Disney needs to get a new framer, as the quality is Crap! So... that being said, I can't put my faith in Sue, and her framing techniques.

As for having to use Plexiglass so that it won't break, why am I the first person to notice that she is framing something 27X40 in a metal frame?!?!? Metal frames are known for flexing, and the last time I checked, glass did not like bending.

That being said, I'll leave the rest unsaid.

(Mats, Acid, Mounting techniques, etc...) :mad:
 
This is a pretty interesting topic. I collect posters myself (mostly old Fillmore posters) but I do have a few old movie posters... I just framed one the other day, and even though I am in "the business", I still couldn't bring myself to pay a zillion dollars to frame this poster as a fine art piece.... if I matted the thing it would end up being 37 x 51, YIKES!!!! So I put a 25 series Nielsen frame and UV glass on it (yes, glass, UV plexi is REALLY expensive) Backed it with archival board, and I'm satisfied.. with the size of these movie posters, I actually see the frame as being secondary to the piece, I don't want people to look at the poster and say "What a lovely frame", I'd like to hear them say, "When the heck did Donovan make a movie?"
As far as metal frames bowing with the weight of the glass, I've had another movie framed similarly for a few years and have had no problems. I certainly wouldnt try one of those dime-a-dozen frames, but metal is good for me.
 
Hi Edie-The frames I spoke of are 4 legs of plastic, acrlic cover and corrugated backing. Frames USA, MCS and several others sell them. We retail the 24x36 for under $20. They come in 27x40 and 27x41.

Certainly not anywhere near the quality you would want for anything of value, but as I said we sell them to the kids for Portal-type prints and others where cost is paramount.

I don't think EDP was implying that $30 was for anything of quality-this may have been what she was speaking of.

But this is another of those discussions(?) where there seems to be no middle ground. I can count on one hand the number of really valuable movie posters we have framed. But I could fill a warehouse with those reprints that some "collectors" are convinced are worth major bucks. It seems that when we shoot them a price for archival quality framing, a great many reel (NO PUN INTENDED),then it comes out that they paid only $30 on Ebay. But it's going to be worth a lot (right). Maybe this is the problem?
 
I guess I've come over here because I would like to see a change. To poster collectors, framers have taken the spot beneath used car salesmen, basically from fear. The problem is that it shouldn't be so because you are actually a lot more knowledgable about preservation than we are but no one has ever adjusted it to our type of collectibles.

I found this conversation interesting until this past comment. Framers below used car salesmen....wow what a comment. We need to adjust to your type of collectables? If your collectors want someone to adjust and yet they want their collectables to be preseved in the best way possible shouldn't they adjust from the $30 frame to something that will preserve it like what a custome framer can do?

As you said, "you are actually a lot more knowledgable about preservation than we are", yet your website says the opposite about framers.

As for the infamous Sue, the Disney Framer, I have yet to see anything sold at Disney or Warner Brothers that has acid free matting and I doubt that any of them have a UV filtering plexi or glass.

On the other hand, we recommend beginners by generic frames (we've probably kept Suncoast afloat from sending so many people to get the 27x40s) instead of taking the risks of uneducated framers

You have got to be kidding me, you send them to Suncoast? Slap a movie poster in a poster frame backed with cardboard and made with the cheapest plexi possible. Even if you send them to a framer with this acid infested glass that you talk about, you still wouldn't do as much damage to the poster as the Suncoast poster frame. You may want to tell them to cut the poster down to 24 x 36 so they can get the next smaller size frame and save a few dollars.

I will agree with you that there are framers out there who do not know what they are doing with valuable or potentially valuable artwork, we'll call them "Mike" (You all know who I am talking about).

When collectors are trying to get their posters framed for $30 or even $50 (big spenders) they go to Mike's because he has the 50% off coupon every week in the paper. As earlier people have said here, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!!

Don't talk about all framers as bad as you do on your website. Educate your people that in order to preserve their posters, they can not go to Mike's shop, they must go to a professional that specializes in custom framing not in crafts/decorations/art supplies/ribbons/fabrics/ and oh yeah we frame things too.

Sorry to ramble on here but some things had to be said.

If you do put together a list of framers that you trust, please contact me, I would love to be on this list.

Also, as a framer, what should we look for to make sure that we are dealing with a real poster that could be worth something as opposed to the cheap reprints that many people think are worth something? Are there different types of one sheets that are more valuable than others and how do we as framers find out how valuable a movie poster is or could be?

Thanks
 
Part of the problem is also who has a clue of what will really become a collectable?

Who would have thought that the very inexpensive open edition poster made of the Duran Duran album cover -- artist Nagel -- would go for $100 or more when Nagel was king in the 80's. I've noticed more and more open editions from the 70's and 80's showing up on the resale market. Movie posters are in that category---they ARE open edition prints.

One of the reason these things are becoming more valuable is that they were considered decorative and thus they are now more limited in number in prime condition. Supply & demand and all that.

My Superman comic #3 would have been worth in the thousands if I had never read it.

And, as corrugated cardboard was the backing of choice 25 years ago, mounting of posters was liberally done (and still is) for open edition prints. And, most kids read their comic books, a lot!

I think the collector has the responsibility of informing ANY framer that the piece is a collectors item and they don't want it glued.

It is also my opinion that most framers are NOT simply upgrading a sale by suggesting the use of better grade (and more conservation oriented) materials & methods. Our trade organization, trade mags and suppliers are constantly promoting the use of better grade materials aimed toward preservation....on ANYTHING dear to the client.

We are also being continually lectured on how it is our job to education our clients.....and, believe me, we try.

When the client says--it's just a poster, poster framing will be recommended.....with perhaps a choice of a few frame styles & prices.

If I was doing an mail order business I'd sure use acrylic, too. But, if I was attempting to help collectors I would insist on it being OP3 (UV). IMHO saying all these things about framers gluing open edition posters when the product will fade fairly rapidly, lowering the value considerably, is Flaming the wrong people when you are promoting something that could easily be just as damaging.

I have also never heard of glass absorbing things from the air. I seem to remember from Chemistry class that glass is the container of choice for many acids! It doesn't stain and about the only thing that sticks to it is photo emulsion or a picture framed in it that got damp when it didn't have some spacers provided. (Framer joke here for all the questions on how to remove stuck pictures.)

It's the plastics that absorb things. Notice the stains on your container that you put your left over pasta in after you nuked it and ate it for lunch? I'm not dissing Arcylic and it has been approved by many for the framing industry. (Not all plastics have.) But, it it is the acrylic that builds the static charge.

I've never heard of a framer telling someone that they should put a more expensive frame on a piece to preserve it better. Mirrors, yes -- not pictures. We do have concerns about the strength of the wood or metal used to properly hold the piece together.

And, conservation wise, OEM metal frames should be suitable, for some sizes. I believe she is totally right on one angle -- it's not the cost of the frame, it is the proper use of materials....but that also incudes the wood frame......which should be sealed with certain non porous metal tapes or sealed with certain varnishes.

And -- you are in New Orleans? It's pretty humid down there and things get moldy pretty easy in that climate. If you are serious about preserving the posters you are displaying you should consider the expense of artsorb panels to help regulate humidity and rag or pure alpha celulose mats, even on the really big ones.

Personally, here in LA, I don't have a problem with the compromises she has come up with as a way to lean toward the preservation area....just in case & when the interest or budget isn't there for preservation/conservation framing. I've certainly done it myself a lot. (I've also mounted the ones for the kids rooms, too.) Heck, if she is framing for the Studio's--these things ARE open editions to them and a dime a dozen and $19.95 is about all they will spend for something they will only have up a couple of months or are giving away....they are not collectors.

I also don't see how she can be framing a 27x40 poster in a 27x40 frame and showing the edge....unless it's one of the ones that came out 26 3/4 x 39 3/4. As you well know, the crops are different---sometimes even on the same poster series.

Time to quit -- I'm getting too grumbly! Just one more thing...

This thread sure has awakened a lot of grumblers and it seems some peace was in progress today. I'm hoping that both Framers that frequent this forum as well and you and Sue have been enlightened in some aspect.
 
After all this condescension about how ignorant we are, edp, how about coming to a used car salesmen's.... er.. I mean framing show which has special classes for interested framers and bless us with all this wonderful knowledge?

Better yet.... I'm anxiously awaiting SUE's classes.... I can't wait to be told how ignorant we are and how we just don't UNDERSTAND collectors and how, in her words, "I'm so wonderful".

sheesh.. sounds to me like you need to quit being so fearful and open up a bit. Nothing so grotesque as a closed mind. The sad thing is that all this interesting discourse hasn't seemed to change your mind one bit about anything, so unless you offer to show up and start teaching (and, in the process, start learning your own self about the horrible disinformation you're broadcasting) what needs to be done, keep the rest of it to yourself.

I personally run across more ignorant people who aren't interested in positive change way more than I care to, and I certainly am not interested in wasting my time with another.

Oh, I know.. I shouldn't go off like this but I feel better now
 
I love the way Sue's site says "In the heart of Hollywood." From her shop, you drive from North Hollywood, Valley Village, Studio City, Universal City, The Caheunga Pass, and then you are in Hollywood. She's not even in the right area code for Hollywood. But if you are in Iowa, or Chelmsford, I guess close is, good enough.

Second: I do not doubt that at one time, or currently, Sue has done a frame job, or jobs for the company she mentions. The studios are large, with many divisions. You can be a framer in LA, put out a sign that say "Sam's Cheap and Shitty Framing Service." And you will still get customers. You will even have the odd Studio Employee who feels cheap and shitty framing is better than thumbtacks tacks, and better than the last place they used, called "Bob's Really Cheap and Crappy Framing Company."

Third: Hollywood a business community like any other. To be doing ongoing work for various companies and divisions, you really just don't brag about it in that way. That is, if you wish to name drop to the guy from Iowa, that you are in Hollywood, and do all the work for all the studios. Iowa don't know no mo better. Now do he? And if you are really mostly doing cheap shitty mail-order framing for people in Iowa, Chelmsford, or Louisiana. How the **** will they know?

Ed, your comment about framers as Used Car Salesman was not far off the mark.

As for Restores recommending her: In the SoCal area. Of Igor, Hernandez, Dave and Jack, Poster Mountain, or even StudioC, I don’t recall them mentioning her, at least not in good terms.

Let's face it. Sue is an Advertiser on your site. It looks Sue is in to for 65.00 a month or 650.00 for a year. I think you will let her say what she pleases to keep the cash coming in?

On that note. Her references to "Plexi" or "Plexiglass" without the proper marks can land you in trouble.

I did like the touch you added http://www.learnaboutmovieposters.com/newsite/INDEX/ARTICLES/bulletin.asp here

As for your glass breaking. An “OEM” metal frame, made to thinner specs will go very far to aid in breakage, and well and the cheaper “spring” style hangars that break over time. But then again, that’s what cheap and shitty framing is all about. A switch to Styrene, or some .040 acrylic will usually fix the glass breakage problem, and make it lighter so the cheap hangars don’t break. As well as make it even a few bucks cheaper.

It’s a pity that Snake Oil has gone so far out of fashion, I guess that leaves only Used Cars for Framers in Chelmsford, or even in “Hollywood” to fall back on.
 
I'm jumping in here only because I have a different perspective. Has anyone run a D&B on these two? A Better Business Report on these two? I know the BB report is a freebie/phone call. Just call up and see how manynegative phone calls or reports there have been.

Like manyof you, I wanted to buy a Disney cel for my son but when I saw the poor quality I passed.

Sorry, y'all, but I can't see truly reputable operations posting such stuff.

AND, FRamer, since when does "shitty" get past the filters? :eek: :eek: Don't care, just curious.
 
edit: $^%#@)*&, I meant to make this a NEW topic. Let me see if I can do this . . . Yep - see GoodFramer/Bad Framer
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Create a Post
Back
Top